20 degrees of carryover?

[JHeald]

Hi eGullet,

I've stalked the forums for a while now, and posted only a few times, but this is my first thread. I've got a question about a baffling inconsistency.

Here's the background: I've made beef wellington the past two weekends. One roast for four people; while I don't know the weight, it was about 2.5-3 inches in diameter, and probably 4 inches long. I treated the beef very similar each time. Each roast was left in the fridge for 3 days, exposed but covered in paper towels to dry out a little (have to thank user "David A. Goldfarb" for that tip), and mushroom patte was cooked down until it didn't release any more liquid. The build was beef, mustard (only of the first, a disappointing omission on the second), thyme, mushroom patte, prosciutto, crepes (have to thank user "Nayan Gowda" for that tip), and puff pastry. The wellingtons were cooked at 400F until a probe thermometer said 140, then pulled, rested, sliced, served, devoured, and thoroughly enjoyed by all.

Here were the difference between the two: 1) I didn't pre-sear the second beef, hoping it would result in a more even medium-rare wellington. 2) I [think] I rested the second wellington for about 5 minutes longer than the first (10 vs. 15). 3) I salted the first beef about 1 hour before pre-searing, but I salted the second beef 24 hours beef cooking the beef wellington. 4) I seared and wrapped the first beef in the mushrooms and proscuitto 1 day before cooking, but I only wrapped and refrigerated the second beef ~1 hour before cooking. 5) While probably minor, I didn't cut slits in the second puff pastry as deep (it didn't go through the pastry to the crepe, like the first). 6) The first Beef Wellington was a wonderful medium-rare (albeit with a rather large ring of welldone), while the second beef was completely cooked through!

Here is the problem: The second beef wellington hit 160F (via carryover) by the time I sliced it. While the texture was fine, it was slightly more dry and more importantly, a personal disappointment (while I've only been cooking for 2.5 years, I expect better from myself...).

Here is the nagging question: What went wrong? Why did the second beef go up 20 degrees by carryover alone, and the first one did not?

My thoughts on the situation: I can't imagine that the pre-sear played any significant role, beyond depriving my guests and myself the wonderful Maillard reactions. I'm also doubtful that the longer pre-wrap and refrigeration had anything to do with this. I also doubt the the extra five minutes of resting played a significant role [all alone]: while another five minutes of carryover could make a big difference, the fact that the first beef was still a very nice medium-rare in the middle (about a 1.5 diameter), I doubt five minutes on the cutting board would take this cut of beef from ~145F to 160F. I also don't think that the pre-salting had anything to do with it (although my mother, one of the guests, thinks that it contributed to drying out the beef, making it cook more/faster/whatever. By that argument though, dry-aged beef should be well done after two minutes in a toaster over...so I don't believe a word of it.) Here's what I think happened: the capsule of puff pastry, and the absence of adequate ventilation resulted in impaired heat transfer out of the food, so the residual heat continued to penetrate the beef. If that is the case, then I assume that cutting proper ventilation in the puff pastry, or maybe poking decorative rows of holes all around, will help prevent this. I don't want to try cooking this again, pull the beef at 120 or 130, only to find that carryover stops after 5 degrees.

What do you all think?

I apologize if this seems like information overload, but I figure that the best way to get the best answer is to provide as much information as possible, up front. No one likes twenty-questions...except 4 year-olds...

Thanks to everyone!

[Chris Hennes]

Obviously you have a lot of variables to work with there, but for me the first culprit that comes to mind is actually the thermometer. In a roast that compact, 20 degrees of carryover is far more than I would expect, I'm not actually certain it's thermodynamically possible at these temperatures. What kind of thermometer are you using, and are its batteries fresh?

[scubadoo97]

I've had a couple of similar situations with a large tri-tip and lamb tenderloins. Both were pulled after temp checked with a thermapen at around 125-130*F. A 15 min rest uncovered resulted in med/med well results. The last time I did the lamb tenderloins I just grilled them for a total of 4 min and after 5 min rest were med-rare. No temp check needed.

[Ashen]

I am thinking probe placement could be an issue. Are you sure you were dead center on the first attempt? If you weren't you might actually have pulled it at a lower center temp than you thought.

Did you cook them both on the same cookware, and rest in the same place?

I have noticed room temp can really affect carryover in smaller diameter pieces of meat.

[Paul Bacino]

Could be steam build up.with in the puff

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[andiesenji]

You can't always predict how any one piece of meat is going to behave when compared with another.

I have roasted two, identical weight and appearance - PRIME grade - standing rib roasts in the same oven (but in two different pans) and had one reach the internal temp I wanted, 40 minutes before the other one.

The internal structure or density of the meat can vary considerably and this also determines how the end product is going to appear and taste.

The two roasts were fine, as it was the longer time that I expected. The one that was done first was an exception to the rule. When cut, it had significantly more marbeling inside, something that was not apparent on the surface.

The guests (it was a catering even) loved both roasts and there was plenty of every type of doneness to satisfy everyone. Nothing but compliments (and a big tip from the client).

I've been cooking for 60 years and I can't think of any way short of taking a core sample to determine what the inside of a solid roast is like.

I've had higher temps show up because the temp probe hit a fat pocket where the temp was higher than in the surrounding meat so it is important to test in more than one spot.

[JHeald]

Thanks to everyone for the helpful replies. Let me answer some of the questions, and add a bit more information.

Chris, I am using a probe thermometer that is a few weeks old, with practically brand new batteries. While the probe is actually very cheap ($15), it is actually pretty accurate: I used it to calibrate my stove by watching the temperature fluctuate up and down for 20 minutes, and then confirmed that it was accurate by comparing that to a bulb-type oven thermometer. I could be wrong, but it seems pretty accurate. WRT the location of the probe tip inside the meat, I'm not entirely sure they were in the exact same spot, considering it was inserted into the top at an angle, but I think they were pretty close.

Ashen, I cooked everything in the same cookware and appliances, and rested them in the same place (my kitchen). The temperature both days was pretty similar.

Some more information: Both roasts came from the same piece of meat; I bough a whole tenderloin and cut it up myself. I also forgot to mention that I froze the second roast two weeks before cooking it. I wrapped it tight in parchment paper and foil, let it sit in the fridge for a day, then froze it. I pulled it out of the fridge about a week before cooking it, and let it sit in the fridge like the first roast, so I also doubt this played a significant role in the final temperature difference. I'm also pretty sure the two roasts cooked for about the same amount of time.

Thanks again to everyone.

[Jeffery C]

4) I seared and wrapped the first beef in the mushrooms and proscuitto 1 day before cooking, but I only wrapped and refrigerated the second beef ~1 hour before cooking.

Without knowing more than was stated here, do you know what your starting internal temperatures were for each? Did you cook the first wellington straight from the 24 hour stint int the fridge? Even though you may have pulled both roasts from the oven at the same internal temperature reading the roast that was closer to room temperature before cooking may have had a greater amount of kinetic energy. (i am not a scientist so please dont judge me if this is completely wrong! )

I have found that thick steaks cooked from a room temperature state need to be removed from heat a little sooner (redder on the inside) than the same steak cooked from a chilled state. That may be part of the reason.

Another contributing, more apparent factor may have been the shallower slits. The beef is trapped in the center of a lot of layers of insulation that are heated to a temp well above the finished temperature you were trying to achieve in the beef. Some of that energy would be focused to the center creating steam. With the shallower slits not allowing that steam to escape from the beef, that heat was trapped inside.

If you dont wish to cut slits down to the beef, try removing the wellington from the oven 15-20F sooner than you did last time.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Jeffery C (log)

[JHeald]

Another contributing, more apparent factor may have been the shallower slits. The beef is trapped in the center of a lot of layers of insulation that are heated to a temp well above the finished temperature you were trying to achieve in the beef. Some of that energy would be focused to the center creating steam. With the shallower slits not allowing that steam to escape from the beef, that heat was trapped inside.

If you dont wish to cut slits down to the beef, try removing the wellington from the oven 15-20F sooner than you did last time.

Thanks Jeffery,

This is kinda what I thought was going on, albeit by though-experiment rather than experience. Do you have experience with this happening, or is it something you read or heard from someone. Either way it is valuable and valid advice, I'm just curious.

I also thought about pulling the next wellington 15-20 degrees sooner, but I don't mind cutting sufficient ventilation, and I didn't want to pull the beef early simply to find it rare when slicing.

Thanks again!

[Jeffery C]

from experience i typically cook the wellington from a chilled state to get maximum puffiness from the pastry. the beef is typically rare at that point so I merely temp it up if necessary.

[andrewk512]

Did you check the temperature on both? If not, I'm assuming the second one was over cooked due to it being considerably warmer to begin with. (Cooking your meat straight from the fridge will also account for that band of well-doneness in the other piece of meat)

If you did check the temperature on both, I'm assuming you didn't leave the thermometer in the second one long enough and you didn't get an accurate reading from it.