Good food without expensive wine

[Steve Plotnicki]

I guess they picked the wrong table this time because our wine bill was a third of that. And we had 3 bottles.

[g.johnson]

A $600 plonk de plonk.

I think it was more like $2000. Mario may be a whore but he's an expensive whore.

Edited December 6, 2002 by g.johnson (log)

[Ellen Shapiro]

To get back to the original point--I certainly think you can have a great meal without wine--and not be punished for it. It will depend on the restaurant and the server you end up with but any top notch restaurant worth its salt should be accustomed to diners who drink and diners who don’t. If you don’t like wine—and you’ve tried it—don’t punish yourself. But as I’ve done on many occasions, I will often ask for “just a taste” of FG’s wine or order a tasting portion. Obviously not a whopping tab for two ($135 with the tip and tax)—with wine—the Schonfelds (Robert) ordered a single glass of wine at each course to be split between them. If the restaurant/servers were going on price and profit alone, it seems to me that the Schonfelds would have had a sub-standard experience.

Based upon my own personal experiences, when you have a good server the difference in the dining experience is less about the end tab than the interest you express and the pleasure you derive from the meal.

[phaelon56]

Any restaurant who fails to give good service and their best effort on food to non-drinkers doesn't deserve any of the business they get. Since when does consumption of alcoholic beverages of any kind, regardless of price or type, have some bearing on the value of a customer? If such a policy is in place in an unwritten and unspoken way in some places I'd sure as hell like to know which restaurants they are so I can avoid them. If I go out for a special dinner at a pricey restaurant (something I'm not financially disposed to do on a regular basis), I maintain the same decorum and pleasant demeanor towards the staff as those who drink (perhaps more so on some occasions), I tip well, I buy the horrendously overpriced mineral water ($14 per bottle at Danube for my last birthday dinner) and my table turns over faster than those of folks who have apertifs, multiple wines and perhaps cordials or dessert wines.

The establishment and the servers may make less money on me than on wine-imbibing patrons when all is said and done but I should be a valued customer - it's a part of being a customer oriented business (last time I checked.... that's what restaurants are supposed to be all about). The fact is that I'm a recovering drunkard with no interest in drinking alcohol of any kind but interestingly enough.... my sense of taste is far more acute than it ever was when I drank wine with meals and I have complete and total recollection fo all my memorable meals - no haziness whatever on any of those memories.

I consider to be unfortunate that neither the wine industry or the restaurant folks have made any real effort to develop and promote grape or other fruit based beverages that pair well with food and are not excessively sweet. It would seem reasonable to think that there are millions of US consumers who want a beverage wiht dinner other than water, milk, wine, beer or soft drink. Wegman's carries a product called "Ame" (with an accent above the letter e) that is available in an okay red, decent blush and a surprisingly good white. The white, in particular, has little sweetness and includes elderflower flavoring and other herbs. It is NOT a "de-alcoholized" wine. I've tried any number of those and they're horrendous. Suggestions for brands or alternatives that might fit the bill are appreciated.

As long as I'm on a rant.... what's up with the fact that restaurants who have multi thousand dollar bottles of wine and $150 tasting menus seem generally incapable of serving a truly quality cup of coffee from fresh beans that are ground fresh and brewed/served properly? I roast and grind my own at hoem and although my standards may be a bit high for coffee, I have yet to have a cup in any restaurantt anywhere that is remotely close to being as good as what I produce in my own kitchen with a used hot-air popcorn popper for roasting, a cheap grinder and a $10 Melitta drip cone. I ahve actually spoken to a professional in the coffee service business who has tried in vain to sell the concept of quality coffee productio and service to some high end restaurants in NYC and thereabouts - he's met with resistance because "it costs too much".

[Nick]

Well said, phaelon56. Only thing is I not only don't drink wine, I don't drink coffee.

Why the f**k is it that restaurants, classy ones, can't be happy, and make enough money, just serving people good food?

[La Niña]

Yes, the lousy coffee I find so frequently in restaurants that otherwise do very well makes me nuts. I don't get it.

[jaybee]

My experience is that when you show an interest in and appreciation of the wine in a restaurant that has a wine steward and/or a serious wine list, you get well taken care of, no matter the price. At Le Bernadin last summer, I spotted a rare item on the wine list--a white Nuits St. George--that I had been looking for for years. The wine steward was very pleased that I knew what this was and that I ordered it. I called him the next day and he directed me to a retail source for it. It was far from the most expensive wne on the list--I think it was $75. Yet the response was very engaging. He remembered me the next day. That's the way it should work in a place that prides itself on service and holds its standards up.

(Steve tried to engage the sommelier at Babbo and he seemed really diffident. He just pointed to the sections and began to read the entries, which we could haver done ourselves. He did not extend himself).

[macrosan]

I believe that one of the fundamental problems here is that many restaurants perceive that they're selling the food at a loss, and make up all the profit on wine. I'm not sure this is actually the case, and if it is then it's time those restaurants revised their business model. Nevertheless, if their perception is that people who don't order wine are loss-makers, that would explain a bad attitude.

[wingding]

For what it's worth,in my obervations behind the scenes in a few restaurants,a lot of cynicism about the customer[and the human race] is expressed by front of the house staff people.They see a lot of annoying behavior,and have to deal with a lot,and blessed are the ever increasing few who can do their jobs with skill and grace.People may order expensive wines for different reasons;some have a geniune interest and breadth of knowledge,others want to impress everyone by throwing their money around.Just like the customers,staff people are human-some are wonderful,some are jerks...and skilled help is a hell of a lot harder to find than you think.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Of course Wingding is right. The wait staff at Babbo probably viewed me as a pain in the ass. Not as someone who has any knowledge about eating in restaurants. And I have to say that isn't really unusual. But if I had to read the staff, our waitress was just unknowledgable and nothing I was going to say to her would make her come to that realization. And the management is probably not encouraging her to identify people that way. But the sommelier is a disappointment because he could easily have engaged me in the typical sommelier/customer game of, find the esoteric and appropriate wine that your knowledgable customer hasn't had. It's not very hard to do if you take a little time. And it's the best way for a restaurant to gain a little knowledge as to who their customers are.

[SobaAddict70]

Any restaurant who fails to give good service and their best effort on food to non-drinkers doesn't deserve any of the business they get. Since when does consumption of alcoholic beverages of any kind, regardless of price or type, have some bearing on the value of a customer?  If such a policy is in place in an unwritten and unspoken way in some places I'd sure as hell like to know which restaurants they are so I can avoid them. If I go out for a special dinner at a pricey restaurant (something I'm not financially disposed to do on a regular basis), I maintain the same decorum and pleasant demeanor towards the staff as those who drink (perhaps more so on some occasions), I tip well, I buy the horrendously overpriced mineral water ($14 per bottle at Danube for my last birthday dinner) and my table turns over faster than those of folks who have apertifs, multiple wines and perhaps cordials or dessert wines. 

The establishment and the servers may make less money on me than on wine-imbibing patrons when all is said and done but I should be a valued customer - it's a part of being a customer oriented business (last time I checked....  that's what restaurants are supposed to be all about). The fact is that I'm a recovering drunkard with no interest in drinking alcohol of any kind but interestingly enough....  my sense of taste is far more acute than it ever was when I drank wine with meals and I have complete and total recollection fo all my memorable meals - no haziness whatever on any of those memories.

I consider to be unfortunate that neither the wine industry or the restaurant folks have made any real effort to develop and promote grape or other fruit based beverages that pair well with food and are not excessively sweet.  It would seem reasonable to think that there are millions of US consumers who want a beverage wiht dinner other than water, milk, wine, beer or soft drink. Wegman's carries a product called "Ame" (with an accent above the letter e) that is available in an okay red,  decent blush and a surprisingly good white. The white, in particular, has little sweetness and includes elderflower flavoring and other herbs.  It is NOT a "de-alcoholized" wine. I've tried any number of those and they're horrendous.  Suggestions for brands or alternatives that might fit the bill are appreciated.

As long as I'm on a rant....  what's up with the fact that restaurants who have multi thousand dollar bottles of wine and $150 tasting menus seem generally incapable of serving a truly quality cup of coffee from fresh beans that are ground fresh and brewed/served properly?    I roast and grind my own at hoem and although my standards may be a bit high for coffee, I have yet to have a cup in any restaurantt anywhere that is remotely close to being as good as what I produce in my own kitchen with a used hot-air popcorn popper for roasting, a cheap grinder and a $10 Melitta drip cone. I ahve actually spoken to a professional in the coffee service business who has tried in vain to sell the concept of quality coffee productio and service to some high end restaurants in NYC and thereabouts - he's met with resistance because "it costs too much".

Thank you phaelon.

What he said.

(For the record, my inability to successfully enjoy alcohol stems from genetics as well as a lacking personal track record. Hence, the "horrendously overpriced mineral water". If only more waters were like Evian...

*sigh*)

SA

[SobaAddict70]

Of course Wingding is right. The wait staff at Babbo probably viewed me as a pain in the ass. Not as someone who has any knowledge about eating in restaurants. And I have to say that isn't really unusual. But if I had to read the staff, our waitress was just unknowledgable and nothing I was going to say to her would make her come to that realization. And the management is probably not encouraging her to identify people that way. But the sommelier is a disappointment because he could easily have engaged me in the typical sommelier/customer game of, find the esoteric and appropriate wine that your knowledgable customer hasn't had. It's not very hard to do if you take a little time. And it's the best way for a restaurant to gain a little knowledge as to who their customers are.

Oh, really?

The New Yorker article also delved a little into the inner workings of the Babbo waitstaff if memory serves. It's not terribly pretty.

Wise is the waitperson who realizes that your continued goodwill depends on his continued attentions. Sorry it didn't turn out like that.

I'm not a wine drinker so I'll have to take your word for it. ::nudge:: That said, I don't remember much about the sommelier at the last dinner we had (Wilfrid, help me out a little), although I did find the "priming of the wine glasses" to be VERY gimmicky. (But what do I know?)

SA

Edited December 12, 2002 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[La Niña]

Although I thought the wine service was just fine, we didn't really ask for much sommelier help. Wilfrid and I pretty much knew what we wanted to order and we ordered it. We just asked the sommelier if he thought our choice was a good one, given what we were eating, and he said yes. At the bar, I had asked the bartender for some suggestions for what to drink with the foie gras ravioli, and he pointed me toward a glass of moscato d'asti, which was delightful. I think Wilfrid and Beloved may have gotten a glass of it, too.

Oh yes - one bad thing was that they don't chill several of their sherries which should be - and when I asked the bartender why that was so, he shrugged his shoulders at me. Had no idea what I was even talking about.

Edited December 12, 2002 by La Niña (log)

[Nick]

The New Yorker article also delved a little into the inner workings of the Babbo waitstaff if memory serves.  It's not terribly pretty.

Yeah. I remember from that article Mario coming in, going through the throwaway barrel, digging stuff out, and then collaring whoever had thrown it away and line them out.

I'll have to see if I've still got that issue and re-read it.

[wingding]

Having only seen wine glasses 'primed' before pouring at Babbo in N.Y.,I also wondered how gimmicky this was.I just spent some time traveling through Bologna,Arrezo and enviorns,and guess what...the glasses were primed in every good restaurant that I dined at.There ya go...and it does serve a purpose..