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What do you think "artisanal" means?


Fat Guy

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Gee this is getting sillier. Britcook insists that things not made by hand will not taste artisanal.

I'm beginning to bore myself now. Artisanal is not a description of quality but of method, much the same as 'home-made'. The generally accepted meaning of the latter soubriquet, at least in food terms, is that the result is potentially better than something produced by an industrial process, but on the other hand I've had some dire home-made food and some pretty good industrial stuff. So to present artisanal as an absolute term for high quality or good taste is, at least to me, a nonsense. To say that I insist "that things not made by hand will not taste artisanal" misconstrues the argument, what I am saying that food can be good, bad or indifferent whether home-made, artisanal or industrial and what matters is that we do not confuse the result with the process.

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So Britcook is it "by hand" that for you defines artisanal? If so what is the boundary of the hand? Does it allow for machinery and technology?

There are many, many, many products where the high-tech industrial process undeniably yields a superior outcome to what most can achieve by hand. The technology often emerges as the result of the relentless pursuit of excellence by artisans. Chocolate and ice cream are two strong examples.

Indeed, all this came about for me because of my use, in a manuscript, of the word "artisanal" to describe one of the Valrhona Limited Edition vintage chocolates. This is a product that is made in a laboratory-like environment with all sorts of specialized technology. Yet it is very much tied to the individual characteristics of a specific bean, the standards are amazingly rigorous, and the end result is something that comes across as the antithesis of generic mass-produced chocolate.

In using that term to describe that product, do you all think I was misleading my audience? Or was I getting at the real nature of what artisanal implies to an educated reader?

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Artisanal is not a description of quality but of method, much the same as 'home-made'.

I disagree. I think that is only one way the word is used. It is also used to describe the style the product is made in. And further to FG's point, why can't the method be industrialized? What is the difference if the result is the same? Are you telling me that once upon a time that Pain Poillane was artisanally fabricated but when LP figured out how to make the bread in a factory setting, it lost its artisanality? Even if tasted exactly the same? I don't think consumers really care how their food was fabricated as long as it tastes like it was made by hand.

These disputes about what should be allowed to be called what always come down to the same issue. Let the public decide. Look at what the French did. They allowed crappy bakers who own a single oven to get the artisanal designation when a baker who might make a good mass produced product can't get it. It is much easier to allow the public to assign their own standard as to what they think tastes as if it is artisanally made. If they're happy with that definition why aren't you?

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My dictionary also lists another related word. It's "Artisanalement"

The adverb rears its head...

I repeat myself: Artisanalish. :laugh:

"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

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Let me try to build on Toby's good example.

On another thread I mentioned "L'Artisan du Chocolat", the London chocolate maker who now supplies many of the top-end restaurants (GR, Fat Duck, etc.) as well as Concorde. It was formerly named "L'Atelier du Chocolat" but changed its name for legal reasons...and, after all, an artisan works in an atelier. The partner who runs the business side is a former colleague of mine.

Gerrard, the partner who makes the chocolates, wants to maintain personal control over every piece of chocolate that the company produces. It doesn't mean that he personally makes every one, and they are investing in equipment and adding staff, but he refuses to subcontract manufacturing, or to allow any of the things that Toby describes.

To me, this is the operative definition of "artisanal": the artisan closely monitors the entire production process and personally intervenes where necessary to maintain a personal standard of quality. This implies some natural limit to scale of artisanal production, since one person is limited in what he/she can directly oversee. Gerrard has been clear from the beginning that his business will never run at larger scale than he can personally manage.

There are other ways of maintaining quality and indeed a large industry devoted to TQM, mystery shoppers, etc., but this is industrial, not artisanal production. Artisanal production can use modern equipment, but it can't be run at huge global scale. In this sense, Poîlane was producing bread of the same quality (or better) than many artisanal bakers ... but through an industrialised process.

Finally, there are tradeoffs between artisanal and industrial production. The former is not always better. Its quality can be inconsistent, especially if the artisan is indisposed, as witness the discussions here about restaurants whose chefs are "out of the kitchen".

Jonathan Day

"La cuisine, c'est quand les choses ont le go�t de ce qu'elles sont."

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Steve and FG, when the words artisan or artisanal are extended to the sterility of the laboratory or the madness of industrial processes, the meaning of these words has been bastardized. Had either of you spent the better part of your life truly involved in hand work trying to do the best you can, you might have a closer understanding of this.

This is all , of course, out of the hands of real artisans who do not have the time or inclination to participate in these discussions.

Why am I doing this? :blink:

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Artisany.

"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

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I'd be interested to see what Steve Number Three says about this, given that he really does spend most of his life involved in careful hand work. I think it cannot be disputed that his wedding cakes are the archetype of artisanal products, what with every element of every one of them being crafted personally by Steve and his wife. Steve Number Three where do you draw the line? Would you accept the term "artisanal" as a reasonable and non-misleading description of, say, Valrhona's Limited Edition 2001 Gran Couva? How about Poilane's or Coumont's bread?

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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To me, this is the operative definition of "artisanal": the artisan closely monitors the entire production process and personally intervenes where necessary to maintain a personal standard of quality. This implies some natural limit to scale of artisanal production, since one person is limited in what he/she can directly oversee. Gerrard has been clear from the beginning that his business will never run at larger scale than he can personally manage.

While this might be the operative definition of artisanal, it has no bearing on how we use the phrase. Before anyone is interested in how something is made, it has to taste as if it was artisanally made. That is the whole point. I defy anyone to eat a slice of Poillane's country loaf and tell me that it doesn't taste artisanally made. It is nonsensical to say it doesn't no matter what production methods Poillane uses. And it's the same with Gerard. Nobody really cares how he makes his chocolate as long as they taste like they have been made by an artisan.

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Incidentally, I just got my December 2002 Food Arts and noticed a short discussion of the term on page 33. It begins, "Artisanal was the buzzword of the year, with cheese, pork, and other products from tiny farms and growers showcased on more and more menus with an emphasis on their unique flavors." Examples given range from Pipestone Family Farms to Cowgirl Creamery to -- in the last paragraph -- Starbucks Serena Organic Blend from its "Commitment to Origins" line.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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"There really was a difference, even though the ingredients were the same and it was the same recipe, same proportions and the customers could tell." (toby)

so, artisanal = made with knowledge, love and care, wishing to uphold the finest standard of the craft.

it seems to me to be difficult to see it as a matter solely of things being hand made. rather, it seems that applying knowledge, love and care, you are forced into using certain methods and ingredients to achieve the results wished for.

christianh@geol.ku.dk. just in case.

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So Britcook is it "by hand" that for you defines artisanal? If so what is the boundary of the hand? Does it allow for machinery and technology?

There are many, many, many products where the high-tech industrial process undeniably yields a superior outcome to what most can achieve by hand. The technology often emerges as the result of the relentless pursuit of excellence by artisans. Chocolate and ice cream are two strong examples.

Indeed, all this came about for me because of my use, in a manuscript, of the word "artisanal" to describe one of the Valrhona Limited Edition vintage chocolates. This is a product that is made in a laboratory-like environment with all sorts of specialized technology. Yet it is very much tied to the individual characteristics of a specific bean, the standards are amazingly rigorous, and the end result is something that comes across as the antithesis of generic mass-produced chocolate.

In using that term to describe that product, do you all think I was misleading my audience? Or was I getting at the real nature of what artisanal implies to an educated reader?

I think your use in this context was spot on, it meets my definition of made directly or under the close control of a skilled worker or craftsman. An artisan will use the best tools available to produce the desired result, and if these are high-tech then so be it, you don't chop down a tree with a paring knife if you have a chainsaw available. And the end result, in this case the chocolate, tastes sublime - not as Steve "lost the Plot" nicki keeps trying to insist, "artisanal".

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But does "Artisanal" really mean something better than the bunch.

I'll give you an example of my artisanal bakery. The guy has his oven in the same room as where they sell the bread. In the summer (and many times in the winter) the door is open to the street and people are walking in and out while he's preparing the breads for the oven.

When he's making the baguettes, he arranges them on his long board for sliding into the gas fired oven. When he has the board full, he removes a razorblade from his mouth and puts small slices on the top of each baguette.

That's artisanal. You decide if that's better than a clean factory environment.

Since I'm not a clean freak, it doesn't bother me but artisanal isn't always what you expect.

BlackDuff

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"When he has the board full, he removes a razorblade from his mouth and puts small slices on the top of each baguette.

That's artisanal. You decide if that's better than a clean factory environment."

does it taste good? :smile:

and don't you think most bacterias will be killed by the heat in the oven? :wink:

christianh@geol.ku.dk. just in case.

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The bread tastes wonderful.

There's a big difference between bread which was baked in the gas ovens as compared to the electric ovens. I guess that this is also part of artisanal. Electric is more efficient but produces a harder and thicker crust. Gas, on the other hand, produces the traditional crust I associate with baguette.

BlackDuff

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To me, this is the operative definition of "artisanal": the artisan closely monitors the entire production process and personally intervenes where necessary to maintain a personal standard of quality. This implies some natural limit to scale of artisanal production, since one person is limited in what he/she can directly oversee. Gerrard has been clear from the beginning that his business will never run at larger scale than he can personally manage.

While this might be the operative definition of artisanal, it has no bearing on how we use the phrase. Before anyone is interested in how something is made, it has to taste as if it was artisanally made. That is the whole point. I defy anyone to eat a slice of Poillane's country loaf and tell me that it doesn't taste artisanally made. It is nonsensical to say it doesn't no matter what production methods Poillane uses. And it's the same with Gerard. Nobody really cares how he makes his chocolate as long as they taste like they have been made by an artisan.

So theoretically, Pop Tarts could be artisanal so long as we consider them #1. VERY delicious and #2. that the Kellogg's company is an "artist" since Pop Tarts are the first and original toaster pastry and the company has strict control over the makings of each Pop Tart etc. -- even if they are spit out on a conveyer belt? :hmmm:

So anything that tastes really good is artisanal?

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"I repeat myself: Artisanalish"

Jinmyo, I had no idea you speak Yiddish.

I don't see any reason why artisanicity should not extend to "handwork" in the laboratory.

Still no examples of use of this word in other than its noun form outside the food world.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Who said "There are no three star restaurants, only three star meals"?

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The term seems to be quite entrenched in the areas of mining and fishing. Dozens of Google results along these lines come up:

". . . the ever increasing conflicts between industrial and artisanal fisheries . . ."

http://www.sflp.org/eng/007/pub1/bul2a_art4.htm

"Artisanal Gold Mining without Mercury Pollution"

http://www.unido.org/en/doc/4571

In addition, there seem to be other uses here and there:

"Don’t Be Off-colour: One of the major mistakes artisanal producers can make is to design their craft products in styles or colours that are no longer appealing to their target markets."

http://www.tradeforum.org/news/sectionfron...l_Products.html

"We continue enjoying experimenting with Artisanal Fusion, introducing the work of new artists and explorations by existing artists, and encouraging our collectors to mix and mesh the artisanal quality--this is about embracing the ritual of layering and taking fashion risks as a means of articulating individualistic style. Come try us on! Artisanal Fusion: the sum of artists + gallery + collector (you!)."

http://www.fiberbydesign.com/

"Quite apart from scale, film production practices outside Hollywood are characterised by significant differences at every level --perhaps they can be usefully described as artisanal in contrast to the industrial model. These are not just semantic distinctions--radically different approaches to production are at stake."

http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/FINE/juhde/stonm001.htm

Also, here's a general piece on the word in the food context:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/living/fo...0artisanal.html

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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So theoretically, Pop Tarts could be artisanal so long as we consider them #1. VERY delicious and #2. that the Kellogg's company is an "artist" since Pop Tarts are the first and original toaster pastry and the company has strict control over the makings of each Pop Tart etc. -- even if they are spit out on a conveyer belt?

No they have to taste as if they have been made by hand. Britcook wants them to actually be made by hand. I find that an unneccessary distinction. We gave two examples of things that are mass produced on a small scale which people consider artisanal, Pain Poillane and Le Pain Quotidian. In fact Pain Poillane is considered by most people as the height of artisanality. But Britcook might want to deny them that designation as a matter of semantics. Yet there are bakers all over France these days who have hung a "Fabrique Artisanale" sign outside of their shops who make complete merde who he would be happy giving that designation to.

If anyone wants to know why they traditionally eat well in France, and not in the U.K., just follow the argument in this thread. The French (like the Americans) are happy to throw a phrase like "artisanal" into the marketplace and allow it to become a marketing phrase and then let consumers actually decide what tastes artisanal and what doesn't. In fact I am certain if it became an issue with a certain artisan who modernized their facility to the extent that it became questionable whether he met the technical definition, they would send one of those administrative groups in to taste his product and to see if it exhibited the qualities and characteristics of an artisanal product. The Brits on the other hand are more obssessed with the proper use of the english language then they are with food tasting good and they would clearly deny the use of the phrase artisanal based on the type of strict definition that Britcook would enforce. This is why the French have employed, and I must add, enjoyed the fruits of on their dinner tables, the use of the word terroir. And it is why english speakers the world over are eating things like spam and pop tarts while they are scratching their heads trying to figure out the exact definition of the term.

Edited by Steve Plotnicki (log)
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Steve I think you should be talking to the Academie francaise.

This is their suggestion for Artisan

"ARTISAN, ANE. n. Celui, celle qui exerce un art mécanique, un métier. ... Il signifie figurément Celui qui est l'auteur, la cause de quelque chose."

with an appropriate adjectival construction.

Wilma squawks no more

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Steve, your posts get more and more bizarre and ridiculous. The French eat better because of their use of language in marketing? So I guess, since marketing is a relatively new concept, the French have only begun eating well recently.

The problem with your arguement, Steve, i.e. artisinal= taste, quality, is that concepts of taste and quality are subjective. How something is made is, relatively, objective. And language can be subjective or objective (I lean towards the objective). So, if one were to impose standards on what could be labeled artisanal, there would be a (reasonably) objective case for "made by skilled tradesmen". If the standards were based on something subjective, say, "tastes like it was made by an artisan", then there would need to be someone judging the taste. A panel of ten Plotnickis with their "certified artisinal" label deciding who was worthy and who wasn't, based on those impeccible tastebuds!

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Schaem - Because all else has failed him, resorts to the relativity argument. He further evidences that english speakers do not understand the concept of terroir and how the French use it as both a marketing term and an assurance of quality. I do not know where it is, and actually John Whiting probably does because he has mentioned it to me on occassion, but I wrote a long explanation of terroir on some thread many months ago that JW characterizes as "spot on." You should read it. Because I am using the word artisanal in the same way.

Once again, taste is not subjective. It is on a personal level but it is not on the market level. The marketplace will accept a definition of artisanal based on how something tastes, not based on how something is made. People do not really care how something is made if it gives them the taste, quality and characteristics they are looking for.

Indeed the French do exactly what you suggest. They send in a panel of people who are expert tasters to assess the quality of things and label them accordingly. Do you find it that strange that reasonable people who know something about food can reach a conclusion about a product?

I will say it a little less politely this time, either you get it or you don't. There are those on the thread who have chimed in and said that they realize there are artisanal products that might not be made artisanally but they don't care if the word is used as long as the requisite quality is there. Then there are those pedantic nitpickers who want the word to match the process and nothing else. Let the record show that they would prefer to put merde on your table and call it artisanal while denying something truly delicious which has the requisite characteristics the use of the term.

An artisanal frozen TV dinner anyone? I heard Schaem is serving them.

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[Definition of "artisan" according to the Académie Française]

"ARTISAN, ANE. n. Celui, celle qui exerce un art mécanique, un métier. ... Il signifie figurément Celui qui est l'auteur, la cause de quelque chose."

I could see how you could describe as "artisanal" an establishment such as Poîlane or Paul, where each shop has a maître boulanger who originally trained at another shop (a sort of bakery apostolic succession going back to the original Poîlane or Paul), as long as the maître personally supervises the process. This fits the Academy's definition and leaves room for small-scale industrialisation.

But without the master baker in the shop, the product couldn't be described as artisanal, no matter how tasty.

It is the master baker, whether the original artisan or his/her "descendant" who judges the quality of the product. That's where the objective subjectivity that Steve P. is looking for comes in.

Edited by JD (London) (log)

Jonathan Day

"La cuisine, c'est quand les choses ont le go�t de ce qu'elles sont."

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