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Knife Recommendations


C.Morris

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When someone describes a knife as fragile, such as one of the gyuto mentioned so far, such that this person would not loan the knife to a friend helping in the kitchen, what specific tasks or foods must the knife avoid?

In the case of a (simple) carbon steel, as someone else mentioned, you'd avoid acids, particularly fruit. Before stainless became widespread special fruit knives with blades made of silver alloy were used.

In the case of a stainless steel or a steel with high corrosion resistance that was very hard and/or had an extreme edge geometry you'd avoid certain tasks and cutting surfaces more than certain foods. Cutting through bone, even fish bone, is out, as are poly cutting boards.

In both cases you'll have to be rather more careful than you would with another knife washing and storing them. Putting them in the dishwasher or soaking them in a sink is out, but we already avoid that with any knife. Simple carbon steels will lose their edge to corrosion surprisingly fast so they should be washed and hand-dried immediately after every use, and I do mean immediately. For very hard steel you'll have to be super careful to remove them from a magnetic strip the right way (separate the edge first, then the back), and don't put them down anywhere they might fall to the floor or into a sink, or get something dropped on them, or get banged with something hard.

It's a good idea to make yourself some rules:

Rule 1 is that the knife must always be in your hand or in storage.

Rule 2 is that the knife doesn't leave your kitchen.

Rule 3 is that nobody, not your girlfriend/wife, parents, your best bud, that chick from culinary school your buddy is trying to impress by bringing her over to look at your collection of fine kitchen tools, gets to touch it.

I actually keep my Foschners (the first "good" knives I ever bought, years before being bitten by the gyuto bug) in a knife roll for when I cook outside, when I cook in someone else's kitchen or for guest use.

Don't let all this scare you away from a good gyuto. You already have a meat cleaver and a stainless Chinese cleaver for the types of tasks you should avoid with these knives.

This is my skillet. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My skillet is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my skillet is useless. Without my skillet, I am useless. I must season my skillet well. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My skillet and myself are the makers of my meal. We are the masters of our kitchen. So be it, until there are no ingredients, but dinner. Amen.

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A lot of what a fragile knife requires just constitutes good habits with any knife ... all knives are fragile, and one of the reasons most people's knives are so dull is that they don't accomodated this.

However, a knife with a very thin edge has some special requirements. One is avoiding bones and other hard / tough foods that could grab or chip the edge, dense foods like chocolate and hard cheese that force you to push hard, anything frozen, etc. etc...

Mostly they require adopting techniques that are both enabled and required by the thin edge. This means cutting with a very light touch. Guiding the knife through the food instead of pushing it. Working with mostly light and static contact with the cutting board. With a sharp, thin blade, you don't have to force. You don't have to trap and sheer the food between blade and board. The blade passes through. You can be crazy fast and still have a light touch. And the minimal board contact means the edge lasts for a long time.

As an example, last fall I cooked at a 24 hour long underground event. Mountains of prep, all on nasty commercial poly boards. The other cooks I worked with were steeling their knives every fifteen minutes or so. I didn't have touch up my edge the entire time. By the end of the night I'd lost some performance but could still push cut herbs without bruising them. The blade was sharper than any blade that had been maintained on a steel. Another thing I appreciate: I don't have one of those knife finger callouses. If I had to prep all day 6 days a week, I might wreck my back, but I'd never be holding the knife hard enough for my hands to get calloused or tired.

Notes from the underbelly

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Paul I'm not going to try to convince you but let me show you where I'm coming from by way of explanation.

Long ago in another lifetime I was a history major. Since I was studying outside the Anglosphere, historical materialism was a big deal. In the English-speaking world historical materialism gets short shrift because it has long been associated with Marxism, which is a real shame because it was really the first attempt to explain history as something other than the Clash of Great Men and/or the Will of G-d. Historical materialism is not perfect by any means but it seems to be accurate most of the time, and it's also a lot of fun to think about.

One of the basic tenets of this doctrine is that for every thesis there will be an antithesis, which results in conflict and ends in synthesis. Any trend at any point in time can be understood as its own thesis, as another trend's antithesis, to be in conflict with the thesis it sprung from and the antithesis it produced and to be the synthesis of a thesis/antithesis pair.

To give an example we should all be thoroughly familiar with, the current fashion for local, organic, cruelty-free and traditional methods of food production can be understood as its own thesis, the antithesis of the industrialization of agriculture and the Green Revolution, to be in conflict with those trends as well as with the Alice Waters "backlash" (I won't link the relevant thread but you know what I'm talking about) and the synthesis of anti-industrial, anti-globalization sentiment with certain folks' desire to obtain high-quality ingredients.

So from this point of view, an antithesis of the gyuto trend thesis is pretty much inevitable. It doesn't necessarily have to be a return to the soft Euroknives we've all graduated from, but something is going to give, and the way thin hard gyutos are approaching the limits of what you can do with steel I think it'll happen sooner rather than later.

EDIT: That was in reply to Paul's previous post, as I was writing before he posted that last one.

Edited by Dakki (log)

This is my skillet. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My skillet is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my skillet is useless. Without my skillet, I am useless. I must season my skillet well. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My skillet and myself are the makers of my meal. We are the masters of our kitchen. So be it, until there are no ingredients, but dinner. Amen.

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I get your point, Dakki. I'm just not sure if this phenomenon will express itself in a cyclical way, as it does in some other arenas.

For one, the Thesis in this case is one that is being adopted (or even noticed) by only a tiny minority of cooks, at least in Western kitchens. In a sense the thin knife thing is the antithesis; the thesis is the thick, european style knife.

Even in high end kitchens, people I see seem more married to their habits (and the old thesis) than to the idea of adopting new paradigms. I recently had the chance to cook in a Michelin 3-star kitchen. All the knives there were Japanese and expensive, but there was only one other guy besides me using a thin gyuto and Japanese-esq techniques. I get the sense that this is changing, but slowly, and only in a fairly elite environment.

My point being that the thin Thesis only seems to appeal to a small (and seemingly slowly growing) group. And it's appealing to this group for mostly pragmatic reasons (not cultural / ideological reasons as with the small farm and slow foods movement). If another antithesis is going to take over sometime in the future, it had better be one that offers significant tangible benefits. And from where I'm sitting, I don't know what that antithesis would be. I just don't believe that the people who have learned to appreciate the thinner knives will go back to thicker ones as a matter of course.

Of course, as in all things speculative, I could easily be wrong.

Edited by paulraphael (log)

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French-style knives have long been yet another option--thinner and lighter than German style (even German-style knives from Sabatier are thinner than the Solingen knives they're patterned after), and French-style chef's knives usually have a more subtle curve with less belly than a German chef's knife. At the moment I think they are kind of off the radar, so there are some good deals to be had in older carbon steel knives from Thiers.

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French-style knives have long been yet another option--thinner and lighter than German style (even German-style knives from Sabatier are thinner than the Solingen knives they're patterned after), and French-style chef's knives usually have a more subtle curve with less belly than a German chef's knife. At the moment I think they are kind of off the radar, so there are some good deals to be had in older carbon steel knives from Thiers.

True, true. I don't have experience with these but know a couple of guys who'd never let go of their carbon sabs. On the other hand I haven't heard much good about the stainless ones. Keep in mind there's no trademark on the Sabatier name ... several companies use it. Best to get advice from a french knife nerd before picking one.

Edited by paulraphael (log)

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Okay, to make up for almost derailing the thread...

1-Get the EdgePro. As much as I hate recommending brand names it's the ne plus ultra of sharpening systems. You're going to need it to get the most out of your knives. Get the coarsest and finest stones they've got. In fact, get a couple extra of unmounted stones of the coarsest type as well. You'll go through them pretty fast if you start messing with edge geometry a lot.

2-Think hard about what you want to do with your new gyuto/chef's before dropping any cash. As you can see, not everyone likes a super-thin, super-hard blade. David has probably forgotten more about practical kitchen technique than I know and he even finds lighter Euroknives too light. Paul is also an excellent cook with lots of real-world experience and he likes the hard thin blades even more than I do. So try as many things as you can before making a final decision. On the other hand, don't be afraid to specialize - you already have a perfectly good general purpose knife in that Shun cleaver.

As an aside, my own go-to knife is a 240mm gyuto, as I said before - but my second knife is a short little baby chef's from Shun, from the Alton's Angles series. (Gimme a break, it was a great sale). It has a wicked belly (I think the angle helps a lot) and is just crazy fast on things like onion, garlic and herbs, as well as small amounts of veg. So specialization isn't just in materials and edge geometry, it can be in size and shape as well.

This is my skillet. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My skillet is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my skillet is useless. Without my skillet, I am useless. I must season my skillet well. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My skillet and myself are the makers of my meal. We are the masters of our kitchen. So be it, until there are no ingredients, but dinner. Amen.

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I want to reiterate that if you buy a knife with a decent reputation among cooks / knife nuts, you can sell it for most of what you paid. So in the world of ebay and specialized online classifieds, you don't have too much to lose. In all likeliness you'll go through a few knives before settling on your baby whether this is the plan or not ...

Also, for clarity ... the super thin gyutos tend to be of medium hardness. The stainless ones are mostly in the Rockwell C 59-61 range. The carbon versions are generally a point or two higher. They're not typically brittle or difficult to sharpen. And I wouldn't recommend them to everyone. I do recommend trying them out if given a chance ... it's eye opening.

Notes from the underbelly

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Performance?

...

However, a knife with a very thin edge has some special requirements. One is avoiding bones and other hard / tough foods that could grab or chip the edge, dense foods like chocolate and hard cheese that force you to push hard, anything frozen, etc. etc...

Mostly they require adopting techniques that are both enabled and required by the thin edge. This means cutting with a very light touch. Guiding the knife through the food instead of pushing it. Working with mostly light and static contact with the cutting board. ...

A Ferrari is a stunningly high performance vehicle.

But it uses lots of fuel, has negligible luggage space, no room for family and friends, is hard to park, you really wouldn't want to use it in winter, or for a fishing or camping trip, and you'd be forever concerned about it being damaged or stolen.

Sometimes "performance" needs to be considered as "usability".

Otherwise a tool turns into jewellery.

Specialist tools are indeed wonderful things, but they are most useful to specialists!

Take seriously the comments in Dakki's 'rules' post

"Fragile" means sufficiently delicate that you need to consciously consider being gentle with it. Always.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

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I want to tell you how much I enjoy reading this thread. A lot of useful information here.

I sharpen all my knives and I have made a few knives. I have a very good understanding of metals, and knives, I think I can agree with most posts here.

I am not against expensive knives. I worship craftsmanship and quality. I wish I could afford one of those thousand dollar blades.

Do I want a $100,000 Rolex watch even it cannot tell better time than a $10.00 drug store one? The answer is yes.

However, in the kitchen for everyday cooking, depending on the situation and your habits, there are many other options.

Out of curiosity, I spent $8.00 on eBay and bought one of those Teflon coated knives, thinking that, what the h*ll, I will throw it away after I play with the Teflon coating.

I was very surprised that it is a very well made item. I have no idea what kind of steel it is made from, or how it can be sharpen. I have been using it for many months, and it is still as sharp as when it was new.

I think you can agree that if you use your knife only to cut food with a good angle, almost any knife will remain sharp forever, and if you don’t use you knife properly, you can dull your blade in on time, makes no difference how much you pay for it.

dcarch

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To the OP, C.Morris, hopefully you are still reading this thread and haven't been paralysed by all this useful info... because I have something to add.

My first 'proper' knife was also the Shun cleaver, after using cheap stamped knives (so called Sabatier Chef's knives) for so many years the step-up was a revelation. I don't think I need to go into details again with all the converted here. What I found interesting about the Shun cleaver was that out of the box it didn't work like a Chinese cleaver because it has such a round belly. I only really appreciated this when I chipped it badly chopping up a poached chicken in the Cantonese manner bones and all. Of course I wouldn't do such a thing now but giddy with the newly found cutting power I rushed to do the job. I will never forget the hideous dinging sound as the edge chipped when I hit the thigh bone. These were big chips too, a good 2-3mm into the edge over 3cm of the middle of the blade, I was gutted. But I resolved it by getting a coarse diamond sharpening stone, ground out the chips and reshaped the blade altogether. I ended up with a flatter belly and it now cuts so much better than it did before. It actually cuts like a Chinese cleaver, straight up and down rather than by rocking. Even though I've gone on to acquire many more excellent knives, this cleaver is still my go-to.

Now I'm not saying you should regrind your Shun cleaver because as it is it's still a great knife. I only did it out of necessity but for a Chinese cleaver it's too "rocking", I think you're missing out on the real experience of using a Chinese cleaver with superior steel. It may be something to consider after you buy your general purpose chef's knife. Btw if I was in the market for one I would consider the 240mm Hiromoto. I have the 270mm stainless slicer, it has great edge, easy to sharpen and good value for money, if the 240mm chefs is as good then I would not hesitate in getting one. Hope that has helped.

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Sometimes "performance" needs to be considered as "usability".

Otherwise a tool turns into jewellery.

Specialist tools are indeed wonderful things, but they are most useful to specialists!

Certainly ... and you're pointing out that my "ferrari" analogy was a bit too glib. I suspect if you owned a ferrari and a station wagon, you'd end up driving the station wagon over 90% of the time. I own a very thin chefs knife and a heavy one, and I find myself using the thin one well over 90% of the time. So my sense of specialization, in one sense, is reversed.

It's not a piece of jewelry. I pay close attention to it, but don't baby it in many of the ways Dakki suggests. It's covered with scratch marks from sharpening. I take it out of the house all the time. At a stage at a restaurant, I let other cooks use it. Someone, being 'helpful,' threw it into a box. Everyone lived to tell about it!

On another note, Prawncrackers mentions cleavers, which are a whole other world. I can't comment on specifics since I'm not a cleaver guy, but there are plenty of cooks who use a good Chinese cleaver for almost everything you'd use a chef's knife for, and these guys are seriously hard to keep up with. Worth checking out some videos or some skilled chinese cooks if you're curious.

Edited by paulraphael (log)

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I think you can agree that if you use your knife only to cut food with a good angle, almost any knife will remain sharp forever, and if you don’t use you knife properly, you can dull your blade in on time, makes no difference how much you pay for it.

I can't agree. Every claim I've seen of a knife that stayed sharp forever could be traced to a knife that was never sharp in the first place.

A little perspective: if your standard for sharp is the knife's edge out of the box, then you haven't used a sharp knife. Very few knives have decent edges when they're new. Often the higher end knives barely have an edge on them at all; the makers know the users want to take care of this part. Low end knives made of cheap steel won't even take or hold a sharp edge, so it doesn't matter.

The part I do agree with: abuse will dull a blade in no time. But regular use will dull a blade pretty quickly too, and without regular maintenance there won't be much difference between a high end gyuto and a lawnmower blade. Guys I know who use high end knives professionally spend a few minutes on the waterstones every day. This translates to a touch up once or twice a month for a typical home cook.

Notes from the underbelly

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It's not a piece of jewelry. I pay close attention to it, but don't baby it in many of the ways Dakki suggests. It's covered with scratch marks from sharpening. I take it out of the house all the time. At a stage at a restaurant, I let other cooks use it. Someone, being 'helpful,' threw it into a box. Everyone lived to tell about it!

I'm cringing at the mention of sharpening scratches (I tape the blades) and if someone threw one of my good knives in a box there would have been blood on the dance floor that night. I admire your Buddha-like patience and kindness.

Knives are a separate hobby for me, not just tools. I'm very proud of my little collection and maybe I do baby them a bit too much from a purely practical point of view.

Dcarch, I'm glad you found an inexpensive knife you like. Ultimately, the skill of the user is going to be much more important than the tools and if you can stay away from high-end knives throughout your career you'll probably save several thousand dollars. I've often thought you could get a perfectly decent knife out of cheap steel if the manufacturers would just give them a proper heat treatment. Maybe someone finally did, or maybe you just got lucky and the knives in that particular batch came out pretty good.

Also Paul's right on the out-of-the-box sharpness thing. All my J-knives have come with usable edges, in fact what most people would consider very good edges, but it took some work on the EdgePro or waterstones to really make them shine and believe me the difference is like the moon and the sun.

This is my skillet. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My skillet is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my skillet is useless. Without my skillet, I am useless. I must season my skillet well. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My skillet and myself are the makers of my meal. We are the masters of our kitchen. So be it, until there are no ingredients, but dinner. Amen.

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I must admit that all the information, while nearly overwhelming, is exactly what I need. I love using a good knife, and I am surprised with how long I used to cook with such sub-par edges. I started by learning good knife technique from a lot of Youtube videos and a few books, and I would like to think that I am making good progress by patiently working with the skills I have, improving incrementally always aiming for the best results.

Prawncrackers, I always suspected that the Shun cleaver was a bit non-traditional, but I thought the cleaver would be a good starting place. I will definitely start exploring more authentic cleaver technique in the future.

For the time being, I am definitely very interested in getting a Gyuto either 240mm or 270mm depending on my options. I really like the Devin Thomas Gyuto that Conal mentioned; although it's on the upper end of my price range, I assume the value of it will hold in the event I do not like the knife so that I could sell the knife. A Hiromoto could also be a really good option.

My first step, though, I think will be to get the Edge Pro and see what I can do with my Shun Cleaver, although I might like a second knife to use in the mean time should I screw up the edge on the Shun :cool: .

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It's seriously hard to permanently damage the edge of a knife without power tools. Worst case scenario, you'll thin the edge until it's unstable, in which case you can just back off a notch and put a microbevel on it. If you're worried about scratching up your nice blade just tape it up (blue painter's tape works a charm). If you want a very decent workin' knife to fool around and practice your sharpening onwith until you make up your mind I suggest Foschner, or one of the Kershaw (makers of Shun) Wasabi series. I believe the MSRP on both of those is around $50 for a chef's knife, and who pays MSRP?

This is my skillet. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My skillet is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my skillet is useless. Without my skillet, I am useless. I must season my skillet well. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My skillet and myself are the makers of my meal. We are the masters of our kitchen. So be it, until there are no ingredients, but dinner. Amen.

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Thanks for mentioning the Kershaw and Forschner. I am less afraid of destroying the knife than temporarily rendering it useless in case my sharpening session runs over a day or two.

Carl

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Learning to sharpen is a pain, but it doesn't take long to get competent. And basic competence will give you pretty impressive edges.

In my experience, developing sharpening skills and cutting skills go hand in hand, so I generally push people toward starting out with a knife that's relatively inexpensive, easy to sharpen, and easy to sell. You won't be nervous about experimenting with it. And when you're ready to get a different knife someday, you'll have a better idea of what you really want.

But I'm not so convinced of the utility of learning to sharpen on european stainless knives. The steel they typically use is actually quite difficult to sharpen well, and responds quite a bit differently than the steels used in japanese knives (and their equivalents).

The edgepro is probably a good way to learn. You can also get a couple of starter stones and a video by Dave Martell, Korin, or Murray Carter. I've seen the korin video (it's decent), and heard great things about Dave's (dave is at japaneseknifesharpening.com)

Notes from the underbelly

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Ha ha ! If there's one thing that can be said for the European-style chef's knife, it's that it's easier to sharpen than the hard-steel Japanese one - by the same factor that the hard steel holds an edge longer.

As far as cheap knives go, the volume kitchenware/cookware market is a fashion market - the major decision drivers for the average consumer are style, design, image... not function. The people making and selling the knives are doing it to make money, by and large. That said, my experience is that the cheap knives nowadays are a lot better than the real rubbish we had in the 70's. Here in Japan (where my experience only started in the 90's) the vast majority of knives used and sold are in the 10 - 30 buck range, with light, thin blades in no small part because the overwhelming majority of users are Japanese women.

On the (male-dominated) professional scene it's notable that almost every knife in the traditional Japanese range has a thick, heavy blade, the exception being the nakiri or loosely, vegetable knife. That style doesn't change as you look back at knives in the last hundreds of years, despite advances in steel technology over that time.

The softer European steel is a compromise that sacrifices hardness for greater 'toughness' - the steel will bend rather than break. A few weeks ago I had a young lass over to cook with me - a smart girl, good family, graduated from one of the country's top universities and works as a BA with an IT firm. I gave her a wee chopping board, the smaller chef's knife and a little ceramic bowl to put the minced garlic in. Next thing I know, she's knocking the knife heavily against the edge of the bowl to shake off the garlic - edge downwards. And I took that knife down to 14.5 degrees per side on the Edgepro !

There were a couple of huge dings there - but they came out with (quite) a few (more) strokes (than usual) on Ben Dale's ceramic steel. No lingering ill effects (other than the odd palpitation), no sharpening needed, no depth lost off the blade. When I steel in normal use, it's once per meal for my main knife, and that's two or three strokes per side. As for learning sharpening, I found Chad's sharpening tutorial here on eG together with Ben's DVD supplied with the Edgepro to be very effective.

Edited by Blether (log)

QUIET!  People are trying to pontificate.

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Ha ha ! If there's one thing that can be said for the European-style chef's knife, it's that it's easier to sharpen than the hard-steel Japanese one - by the same factor that the hard steel holds an edge longer.

I know that's the conventional wisdom, but I don't think typical european stainless steel is actually easy to sharpen. It's fast to abrade down because of its lower hardness, but it has a kind of springiness / gumminess that makes it more challenging to deburr than many other stainless steels (and virtually all carbon steels). It can be frustrating to produce a high quality edge. The mystery steel that Global uses is a worse nightmare in this department. Dave Martell at Japanese Knife Sharpening said that he won't bother sharpening either European knives or globals on stones for this reason ... they just get whacked on the belt sander!

The euro steel does maintain easily on a honing steel, which may be it's best selling point.

More significantly, sharpening the euro steels feels different enough that it doesn't provide great practice for sharpening the Japanese steels. At least in my limited experience.

Edited by paulraphael (log)

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A few weeks ago I had a young lass over to cook with me - a smart girl, good family, graduated from one of the country's top universities and works as a BA with an IT firm. I gave her a wee chopping board, the smaller chef's knife and a little ceramic bowl to put the minced garlic in. Next thing I know, she's knocking the knife heavily against the edge of the bowl to shake off the garlic - edge downwards.

:blink:

And this is why I don't let other people touch my good knives. I hope her company was worth it.

This is my skillet. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My skillet is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my skillet is useless. Without my skillet, I am useless. I must season my skillet well. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My skillet and myself are the makers of my meal. We are the masters of our kitchen. So be it, until there are no ingredients, but dinner. Amen.

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I have a slightly off topic question (although not entirely, given the shift toward sharpening). Previously, I owned a smooth 12" steel, no ceramics, diamonds, or grooves. I found a few strokes before my usual prep work, before dinner in 99% of the cases, greatly enhanced the performance of my Global knives. I don't hear a lot of mention about steels with the thin bladed Japanese knives. Is this step unnecessary for these knives or simply unmentioned? Also, since I'm asking about maintenance, do the aforementioned knives require more or less maintenance on sharpening stones than the average (using the term loosely) knife?

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I don't hear a lot of mention about steels with the thin bladed Japanese knives. Is this step unnecessary for these knives or simply unmentioned? Also, since I'm asking about maintenance, do the aforementioned knives require more or less maintenance on sharpening stones than the average (using the term loosely) knife?

That's a great question, and one that you'll get more than one answer to. There's an orthodoxy that says "never steel a japanese style knife." And there are many cooks who do it with impunity.

In my experience, you can maintain some japanese knives on a steel. If the the steel isn't too brittle and / or the edge angles aren't too accute, it will work, although you should use really light pressure, and very smooth steel in general.

I can't give any guidelines on where the line is, as far as how thin / how hard. My old hiromoto as gyuto handled a steel fine, until i thinned the edge past a certain point. then i just used a strop or stones for maintenance. my current gyuoto I wouldn't let near a steel.

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I've been sharpening my European knives on Japanese waterstones for a while now, generally with finer angle than the factory 20 degrees, and I've found I have to use the steel more lightly and for fewer strokes with a finer edge. This may not apply to the harder steels used in Japanese knives.

I also think that the technique of using a steel works more naturally with knives that are sharpened symmetrically on both sides, and it requires a different kind of attention to steel a knife with an asymmetric bevel like traditional Japanese knives have (gyutos not being traditional).

One European knife that I have with an asymmetric bevel is a Wusthof offset sandwich knife (discontinued and replaced with a new design), which has a scalloped bevel on one side and is flat on the back side--very sharp but the steel isn't really hard enough to hold the edge. I bought it thinking it would be low maintenance, but I noticed the edge rolling after the first week, and you can't sharpen a scalloped edge on a stone terribly easily. Wusthof recommends using a steel, but if you try it the normal way, the burr just flops back and forth from one side to the other, so I've found that it works to steel it lightly on the beveled side a few times followed by one stroke on the back side to straighten out the burr, going back and forth lightly until it's right, sometimes steeling on the push stroke to keep the scallops even. Very strange knife to maintain.

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I don't hear a lot of mention about steels with the thin bladed Japanese knives. Is this step unnecessary for these knives or simply unmentioned? Also, since I'm asking about maintenance, do the aforementioned knives require more or less maintenance on sharpening stones than the average (using the term loosely) knife?

That's a great question, and one that you'll get more than one answer to. There's an orthodoxy that says "never steel a japanese style knife." And there are many cooks who do it with impunity.

In my experience, you can maintain some japanese knives on a steel. If the the steel isn't too brittle and / or the edge angles aren't too accute, it will work, although you should use really light pressure, and very smooth steel in general.

I can't give any guidelines on where the line is, as far as how thin / how hard. My old hiromoto as gyuto handled a steel fine, until i thinned the edge past a certain point. then i just used a strop or stones for maintenance. my current gyuoto I wouldn't let near a steel.

most japanese made knives westerners use are western style knifes and can be sharpened with a steel. but japanese style knives (only sharpened on one side) should never be sharpened with a steel.

Photo on 2010-04-28 at 01.26.jpg

these are my japanese style knives

"None, but people of strong passion are capable of rising to greatness."

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