Knife Recommendations

[C.Morris]

I am shopping for a new general purpose chef knife, and I would like recommendations. Previously, I had owned a Global 10" chef knife that I liked it, but I also realize that the only comparison for the Global knife for me at the time were cheap Wal-Mart knives, not exactly a fair comparison.

Currently my only knife is a Shun 8" Chinese Chef Knife (a vegetable cleaver), which I enjoy given my inclination for Chinese style dishes that require carefully sliced ingredients. Because already have a moderate sized knife, I am most interested in a 10" knife or even a 12" knife. I rarely have any desire to fabricate meat, so I almost never breakdown a chicken, which means that I do not need a knife for cutting bones. (I actually received a cheap cleaver as a gift very recently as my only other knife.)

For an example of what I am looking at so far, I lean toward three different alternatives, as well as repurchasing the Global:

Global, 10" Chef

Shun, 10" Classic Chef

Hiromoto, 300 mm Aogami Super Series Wa Gyuto (Bottom of the page)

Ryusen, 270 mm or 300 mm Blazen Gyuto (Between the middle and the bottom of the page)

I have a hard time deciding between a 10" knife and a 12" knife. The other difficult point is a pure stainless steel blade or one of the compound carbon and stainless steel blades.

I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts!

Carl

[Dakki]

Do you work in a restaurant? The following assumes you're an enthusiastic amateur.

What do you want to do with a chef's/gyuto that you don't already do with the Chinese cleaver?

I think Shun makes a very nice knife but its not really a gyuto, if that makes any sense. Global I have no personal experience with. I don't like their looks and once a knife breaks the $50 mark I think it should look nice as well as perform.

Your other choices I have no experience with either, maybe one of the knife nuts here can help.

Unless you're going to prep vast amounts of ingredients on a regular basis 12" might be overkill. My current favorite chef's is a mere 240mm (about 9.5"). I have larger knives (including a 14" monster) but they feel unwieldy by comparison. YMMV.

Simple carbon steel won its excellent reputation in comparison to crappy stainless. At the sort of prices you're looking at, you can easily afford stainless "supersteel" or tool steel. (Tool steels are sometimes called carbon steel, though).

[scubadoo97]

Quality wise you can't go wrong with either the Hiromoto or the Blazen. Both have excellent steel.

I have a 240 gyuto which I think is a good size for the average home cook. I have a 300mm Hiromoto HC gyuto that is a monster of a knife. I rarely use it. I know it's all relative because the 240 seemed big when I went from an 8" German chef. If 300mm feels good in your hands then go for it. The Wa-gyuto looks real sexy.

[Conal]

How much are you looking to really spend and be happy after?

That 300mm blazen price gives you quite a few options.

Six months ago the obvious choice would have been a Tadatsuna.

http://itkitchenknife.com/wood.shtml

These days though the new hottness everyone is lusting after is a Devin Thomas.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/dethfo270abg.html

[C.Morris]

I will try to address a little bit from what each of you have mentioned.

Dakki, you are correct that I am an enthusiastic amateur. Honestly, my Chinese cleaver seems like it can handle about everything, except it lacks a proper tip and a few things might be larger than comfortable for it such as melons, pineapples, and cabbage, but I've only owned the cleaver for a short while. This knife search will likely be protracted, so I am in no hurry to purchase a knife. I appreciate your question about my intended purpose for the knife because it'll help me keep perspective as I evaluate my cleaver to see if it has any deficiencies.

Scubadoo, I know exactly what you mean about the transition to a larger knife. I switched from using the usual 8" knife to a 10", and I admit it felt awkward for a bit, but I quickly learned to like the extra length. I am slightly concerned, however, that space may be limited, especially since I will be moving into an apartment soon for graduate school, so I will mostly be working with a 12" by 12" cutting board for the time being.

Conal, I'm about to start graduate school in the fall, so my budget is limited, but one of the few things I like to invest in is a good knife (since I plan to own the knife for the rest of my life). I am comfortable spending as much as $300 if I need to, so I want to keep my options open. Thanks for pointing out Devin Thomas, my familiarity with different knives and makers is somewhat limited.

Thanks for everyone's feedback so far. It helps a lot.

[scubadoo97]

I will mostly be working with a 12" by 12" cutting board for the time being.

Due to that alone I would say back off that 300mm knife. Even a 270 will be big for that cutting space but I assume at some point you will move up in board size. For a home cook I find the 240 length to be ideal but those who cut for a living like a 270 for prepping a larger amount of produce.

That Devin Thomas gyuto is pretty slick. I really like the look of a wa

[dougal]

My suggestion would be to invest some of your budget in good sharpening kit.

(I'm still delighted with my EdgePro Apex, but hey, there are other methods, or so people say.)

And only after your sharpening is set up, review what you have left to spend on your next knife.

That way whatever knives you have can be kept in perfect condition, absolutely all the time.

An ordinary knife that's sharp, works better than any knife in need of sharpening, however much it cost.

[David A. Goldfarb]

It's very hard to say what will feel right in your hand with your cutting style. If there is a way you can try things out, perhaps buying a few knives with the option of returning the ones you don't like, I'd recommend it.

For instance, I have a light weight 12" carbon steel German-style Sabatier that feels great to me, but I had a 10" French-style Sabatier that always felt too light. In 10" chef's knives, the Wusthof extra wide feels better than the Sabatier I had, and I grew up using an 8" Henckels, so that one will always feel good to me. I like the 8" Henckels for tasks where I'll be rocking the knife on the board, using the point as the fulcrum, but I prefer a lighter and sharper 8" French-style carbon steel Sabatier for tasks where my elbow is the fulcrum, and I'm lifting the knife from the board between cuts, as long as the food isn't something that will be discolored by carbon steel.

[C.Morris]

Dougal, I completely agree with you about the sharpening system. In the past I freehand sharpened using Norton diamond stones--which I loved for their perpetual flatness is aggressive cutting. I always maintained a sharp, dependable edge, but I always wondered whether some sort of angle guide system would be better. Most probably, my next post will be a topic asking about sharpening systems, although I may also invade KnifeForums.com.

David, are you familiar with any online stores that would do this trial policy? My other option is to look at knives in Atlanta, GA in a few months after I move there, if anyone knows a good knife store.

[paulraphael]

I will mostly be working with a 12" by 12" cutting board for the time being.

Due to that alone I would say back off that 300mm knife.

Yeah, 300mm is enormous. I know some people with knives this size, but no one who uses them as a main chef's knife. With decent skills and a reasonable board size 270mm is a great mix of capacity and useability.

You can use a 270mm knife on a 12 x 12 board, but you're going to be spending a lot of time on board and counter management. You will need a lot of free counter space around the board for prep containers and for the knife tip to have breathing room ... and if you have that, it would be worth considering a bigger board.

As far as which knife, the hiromotos are excellent. The blazens probably perform a little better by virtue of their thinner blades. But the blazens aren't the great deal they were once upon a time. Every year or two prices go up and a new wave of price / performance leaders come onto the scene. Togiharu and Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef have been getting a lot attention these days. I'd also check with the guys in the more knife-centric forums for current advice.

Keep in mind your general preference as far as blade thickness / weight. A lot of guys (myself included) have been moving to anemically thin, high performance blades. But these require some adaptability with technique, and compromises on versatility. For perspective, by contemporary standards Shuns are battleaxes. You want to figure out where your preference is on the spectrum between shun and the lightest blades.

Carbon vs. stainless is a religious issue for some people. Nowadays there are great steels of both persuasions. The biggest objective advantage of carbon is that you can get ridiculously high performance for reasonable prices. Other advantages involve sweeping generalizations that don't hold true in all instances. these include somewhat easier sharpening, and abilitiy to take a slightly sharper edge. The biggest disadvantage of carbon steels are their tendency to discolor or add off flavors to certain acidic ingredients. Acidic ingredients also reduce their edge holding ability somewhat.

Personally I like stainless in gyuto and paring knife, and carbon in knives that only (or mostly) cut protein.

Edited May 21, 2010 by paulraphael (log)

[David A. Goldfarb]

David, are you familiar with any online stores that would do this trial policy? My other option is to look at knives in Atlanta, GA in a few months after I move there, if anyone knows a good knife store.

I haven't really looked extensively, since I live in New York and can try lots of things in person, and I have plenty of knives, so I don't buy new ones that often, but it probably makes more sense to see who has the knives you're interested in and then take a look at their return policy. One place I've bought knives from is-- http://www.thebestthings.com/misc/return.htm , which has a reasonable return policy.

[paulraphael]

The trouble with a trial is that you're not going to learn the real important stuff, like what the knife is like to sharpen, what kind of edge geometry it can handle, and how long it holds an edge.

The way to go about this is to buy a knife that has a good reputation, use it for a month or two or however long it takes to make up your mind, and sell it if you don't like it. You'll probably get 3/4 or so what you paid for it.

Another option is to buy a used knife ... check classifieds at knife forums or foodieforums. if you do that you'll probably start out with a well sharpened knife, which is a big time saver. and you'll be able to sell for about what you paid.

[David A. Goldfarb]

This is true, but for a chef's knife in particular I think the feel is the first requirement, and if the feel isn't right, then it doesn't matter how it sharpens or how long it holds an edge.

[Dakki]

Keep in mind your general preference as far as blade thickness / weight. A lot of guys (myself included) have been moving to anemically thin, high performance blades. But these require some adaptability with technique, and compromises on versatility. For perspective, by contemporary standards Shuns are battleaxes. You want to figure out where your preference is on the spectrum between shun and the lightest blades.

I've given this particular topic some thought and I think at some point (pretty soon, actually) we're going to run up to the limits of what steel of whatever alloy and treatment can handle. Then we'll plateau for a while. After that, backlash.

"Now, you might think I'm crazy but what I recommend is a good German knife. Feel how nice and solid this is? This is a Wusthof. The Germans have a tradition of bladesmithing that goes back to the Middle Ages, when knights carried swords that were so durable they could bang away at each other in full armor all day without breaking their swords, so you KNOW it's gonna be tough."

[paulraphael]

I've given this particular topic some thought and I think at some point (pretty soon, actually) we're going to run up to the limits of what steel of whatever alloy and treatment can handle. Then we'll plateau for a while. After that, backlash.

Well, the limits have essentially been reached. It's why the high end thin knives made by companies like Suisin and Tadatsuna and Mizuno are basically clones of each other. They've picked the best alloy they know how to work with and are machining the thinnest blades they can. Then the cooks who buy them then thin edges as much as they can get away with. We won't see thinner unless someone finds an alloy with better edge stability than white steel or ginsanko / vg-1 / 19c27. Maybe Devin Thomas's custom gyuto made out of AEB-L will set a new standard ... we'll have to see.

Not sure if there will be a backlash. These knives just outperform anything else. When people who own them hanker for a heavier knife they just grab one.

"Now, you might think I'm crazy but what I recommend is a good German knife. Feel how nice and solid this is? This is a Wusthof. The Germans have a tradition of bladesmithing that goes back to the Middle Ages, when knights carried swords that were so durable they could bang away at each other in full armor all day without breaking their swords, so you KNOW it's gonna be tough."

The European knives definitely offer versatility. One honkin' knife to do it all. And practically indestructible. The trouble is that the performance just isn't there. If you learn to use and sharpen one of the higher end J-knives, you'll just cut better. Better results, better efficiency. It's kind of addictive. I still love my 8" german knife for anything that I fear would damage the J-knife, or if anyone comes over and wants to help in the kitchen. It beheads fish, quarters chickens, chops chocolate, and rock-chops woody herbs like rosemary. And can handle any other task in a pinch.

[JimS]

The European knives definitely offer versatility. One honkin' knife to do it all. And practically indestructible. The trouble is that the performance just isn't there.

There are an awful lot of us around who were perfectly happy with our German knives for decades, and we got by just fine despite performance that just wasn't there.

[Blether]

... There are an awful lot of us around who were perfectly happy with our German knives for decades, and we got by just fine despite performance that just wasn't there.

Yes... the knife nuts will tell you that performance has a special meaning as applied to kitchen knives, separate from what performance means in customary English. Supposedly it's analagous to performance as applied to motorcars - you can measure the performance of a car at a test track, and supposedly you can do the same with a knife - but in the end what they admit they mean is simply harder steel, as measured on the Rockwell scale.

Personally, I dispute the idea that performance is even right as applied to cars. You can measure test track acceleration, if you take enough care to eliminate driver inconsistency, and you can measure ultimate top speed fairly well. You might even find car nuts using performance as shorthand for these measures. But in general usage, performance only makes sense as applied to a task or a goal. If we're racing round Laguna Seca, your Lamborghini may well beat my Subaru Impreza, but once we go down to Baja you'll be plain out of luck.

It seems to me what goes on in my kitchen is far more like Rally Cross.

I think it's really misleading to go bandying the word 'performance' about in a way that doesn't match its generally-understood meaning. If you go into any woodworking shop, chances are you'll find many of the tool blades are made of D2 tool steel. Which is softer even than 1980's generation kitchen knife steels - and I can guarantee you the stuff I want to cut for food isn't as hard as wood :-)

Are the woodworkers settling for low-performance equipment ? I don't think so.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Blether (log)

[Willspear]

after using a susin inox or ikkanshi tadatsuna its nearly impossible to go back to anything but

[Dakki]

Paul, I'm not that sure we've reached the limit. There's plenty of metallurgists working on improving steel alloys, but we are going to hit a wall eventually, even if I'm right and we haven't hit it yet. At some point we're going to end up with knives that are so thin and fragile due to our focus on a single dimension of "performance" it'd be a huge relief to go back to the German/French knives of yesteryear. Most of us probably won't, but the next generation might, especially if the Europeans start innovating in materials as well, which I understand they have. The truth is we were stuck in a rut knife-wise for a long time before the Japanese started making serious inroads in the market.

Of course, the next generation of super-knives might come from India or China or Brazil instead. Wouldn't that be neat?

Blether, I agree with you on the performance thing. I think eventually (soon?) we're going to start looking at things like wear resistance and toughness rather than just how thin and hard a blade is.

D2 is a pretty interesting steel for cutlery uses. It tops out at ~62 Rockwell C with a mild temper, which is plenty hard in my book, much harder than the mid-50s you'll find on a typical European-style knife. It's also very tough and wear-resistant, which has an upside (you won't have to sharpen it as often) and a downside (it'll be a PITA when you do). It's pretty corrosion resistant for a "carbon" (tool) steel. Plus, it's inexpensive, well-understood and readily available compared to the so-called supersteels. The downsides are a large grain size (you'll have to work to get that finely-polished edge beloved of sharpening nuts, although lots of people like it "toothy"), and tricky heat treat compared to simple carbon. I think it suffers from being in the middle in too many ways: corrosion resistant but not stainless, inexpensive (materials + manufacture) for a fancy steel of whatever type but not as cheap as simple carbon, and maybe a sort of image problem from being an older alloy.

If anyone's actually interested in checking out a D2 knife for a reasonable price, Queen Cutlery makes a line of pocketknives in this steel. They're pretty nice, but I've gone back to good ol' Victorinox.

[Conal]

I think it's really misleading to go bandying the word 'performance' about in a way that doesn't match its generally-understood meaning. If you go into any woodworking shop, chances are you'll find many of the tool blades are made of D2 tool steel. Which is softer even than 1980's generation kitchen knife steels - and I can guarantee you the stuff I want to cut for food isn't as hard as wood :-)

Are the woodworkers settling for low-performance equipment ? I don't think so.

D-2 Tool Steel
 	Heat treat temperature	1600-1650 F
 	Quench	Air or Oil
 	Hardness	Rockwell 60c-62c
 	Applications	 D2 has high wear resistance, good toughness, and low distortion. It is often chosen when long tool life is required.

I don't know what 1980's generation kitchen steel you're talking about, but even today's European knives average about 55 Rockwell.A far cry from the 60-62 of your D2.You need to look at the high end Japanese knives for something like that.Are woodworkers settling? No. Are most people in the kitchen? Yes.

Edit: looks like Dakki beat me to the punch there.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Conal (log)

[paulraphael]

Paul, I'm not that sure we've reached the limit. There's plenty of metallurgists working on improving steel alloys, but we are going to hit a wall eventually, even if I'm right and we haven't hit it yet. At some point we're going to end up with knives that are so thin and fragile due to our focus on a single dimension of "performance"

Two thoughts ...

First, the technology isn't making the knives more fragile ... It's just allowing the knives to be thinner without giving up too much strength. If steels improve, the knives will be thinner but just as durable as today's knives. The final compromise between sturdiness and performance always lies with the end user. I could put a low angle bevel on my Tadatsuna if I wanted, and have a knife that could take a fair amount of abuse. But that would be a little like putting off road tires on a ferrari. For that level of performance I would have done better to buy a cheaper knife.

Second, I haven't seen any developments in new steels that are aimed at improving edge stability beyond the steels currently used in the thin knives. The super steels often have incredible wear resistance, but they cannot support edges as thin as white steel or even ginsanko. The current edge stability champion among stainless steels may be AEB-L, which is a 100+ year old forumula. Ginsanko / VG-1 / 19c27 are close behind it and offer some other advantages.

D2 is a high wear resistance tool steel. It has larger carbides than any of the steels I mentioned and can't support edges as thin. The resistance to wear actually offers few advantages in cutting food (unless you're agressively rock chopping on a poly cutting board), but as you said, you will definitely notice it when trying to sharpen the stuff!

[Dakki]

The technology isn't making knives more fragile, but our singleminded focus on a single aspect of performance is. For example, you have a German knife you can put through stuff that would damage a gyuto, without second thought. My impression is that as we get more extreme in edge geometry (and the steels required to stand up to that edge geometry, new or old) we lose more and more of that versatility. I have a whole bunch of chef's knives and gyutos to choose from for a particular task and I think you do as well, but probably most people even in these forums do not, so they'd be pretty ill-served by (simple) carbon steel or an extreme edge geometry.

Steel in general is such a complex subject that it's tough to make generalizations that hold true in all cases but in very broad strokes and with all kinds of exceptions and special cases, the harder a steel is the less tough it is.

Just to be clear: I definitely don't think the current trend towards a hard, thin edge with an extreme geometry is a bad thing. On the contrary, I think it's great those of us who care about such things have them available. What I am saying is that we've completely focused on a single aspect of performance, decided that's the only definition of performance, and have ended up (or will soon end up) with knives that just aren't up to some common kitchen tasks.

My idea of what's going on with innovation in the cutlery steel world is simply an extrapolation of what I know is going on in the tool steel and special-purpose steel worlds. For example, some virtually inert steels have been introduced fairly recently, stuff that just leaves "stainless" in the dust for corrosion resistance. I am not familiar with Devin Thomas' knives or AEB-L so I can't comment on that.

[C.Morris]

The discussion of different types of performance among knives causes me to reconsider my needs. One concern, however, is that I am not familiar enough with the thin bladed knives to understand all the notions of fragility, so this raises a question that I am sure many of you can answer. When someone describes a knife as fragile, such as one of the gyuto mentioned so far, such that this person would not loan the knife to a friend helping in the kitchen, what specific tasks or foods must the knife avoid? I feel that I am reasonably conscientious when using a knife, so I doubt I would ever abuse a knife, but this does not imply that I understand all the possible methods to abuse a thin, high-performance (using the term loosely) edge.

[paulraphael]

My impression is that as we get more extreme in edge geometry (and the steels required to stand up to that edge geometry, new or old) we lose more and more of that versatility.

Sure, I think we're in complete agreement on that. There's always a compromise ... it comes both with what knife you choose and how you choose to sharpen it. And different people are going to lean further in the direction of performance or further in the direction of versatility ... there's no doubt about it. And moods and fashions may change.

I'm skeptical, though, that we're seeing a trend that will inspire a major pendulum swing one way or the other. I think the thin knife phenomenon has come about because people have discovered these knives (which have only recently had any accessibility on these shores). The pros I know who are using the Suisins and Tadatsunas simply say they're able to work faster and better than they ever have before. The price they pay ... having to grab a different knife if they need to lop the head off of a sea bass ... isn't so high. There are certainly people who will be seduced by the hype, try a thin knife, and not like it. But these cases don't represent a trend.

The idea of a single, super versatile, indestructible knife to do it all actually appeals to me. I miss something about needing nothing but my 8" Schaaf chef. And I still love that knife. But when it comes to knocking out a bunch of prep, doing it fast, clean and fun, i have a hard time imagining going back to a using an axe. My techniques have changed in response to the thin blade, my whole theory of cutting. I don't feel any motivation to go back to the old ways.

There are cases where I wouldn't want a thin knife. I cooked at a friend's drunken barbeque last night. I didn't want to have to babysit the gyuto. But I also didn't need it! A few months ago i considered doing a stage at a brooklyn pizza restaurant. Partly because I didn't want to babysit, and partly because i didn't want to feel like a douchebag, I decided that I'd get a $50 togiharu if I did that gig. But at home, or at a higher end kitchen? Don't take my thin gyuto away!

[J.Stevens]

you seem to like the japanese knifes ... if your looking to upgrade to the best japanese knifes check out korin.com ... these knifes quite literately double your knife skill (if you have already established some form of okay knife skills) and an added bonus .. they look bad ass