Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

What makes the back half of a cow not kosher ?


Recommended Posts

I worked at a kosher butcher during high school and grew up in a conservative Jewish household and my parents kept kosher until my grandparents passed and then no more.

I've always thought it not fair that folks who keep kosher will never know the taste of a Porterhouse steak or a Fillet Mignon. Until I tasted these cuts I did not now the difference and the best part of the meat from a cow is from the back.

I'm not sure at which rib the front half stops and the back half starts ? There are thirteen ribs on a cow. How cab 1-7 (7th one I think) be ok to eat, and 8-13 not ? The meat inside must touch between 7-8 ? Same cow, same way butchered, ate the same food while alive, ITS THE SAME COW, how can it be OK to eat the front and not the back?

I asked a co-worker who is the first generation in his family to not be a kosher butcher, WHY ? He came back to me and said its because the technique, of butchering the rear of the cow has been lost. I did a web search and sure enough I found this:

"The backside of the cow is not kosher due to the story of Jacob fighting with the angel. After the fight he was limping in his thigh. Basically because of Jacob's struggle and his injury was in his thigh this was transferred to the cow. This was related to the hind quarters from the cow because unless the sciatic nerve (I believe) is removed from the hind quarter of the cow, the cow is not kosher. If the vein is removed then it becomes kosher. It's all inter-related. The issue is that the nerve is rarely removed these days because it takes a highly skilled shochet (trained butcher) to remove it to make it fit for kosher consumption. "

First of all is this the reason, does anyone know any other reason ?

Secondly, us Jews need something like Vatican II, where the powers that be update our customs.

I'm sure there was a good reason not to eat pork way back when, or maybe not since the rear of the cow business is based on a fictional story or legend but wow, can you imagine a world without spare ribs or bacon...?

What is the reason cloven hoofed animals are forbidden too ?

Edited by Aloha Steve (log)

edited for grammar & spelling. I do it 95% of my posts so I'll state it here. :)

"I have never developed indigestion from eating my words."-- Winston Churchill

Talk doesn't cook rice. ~ Chinese Proverb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Non-practicing here. I like my pork and shellfish. Sometimes I'll even make a cream-based sauce to go with the meat, just because I can.

Secondly, us Jews need something like Vatican II, where the powers that be update our customs.

You mean like somehow... reforming Judaism? :laugh:

About dietary laws, it's my understanding we borrowed most if not all that stuff from the ancient Egyptians. We should find out what their views on sciatic nerves were.

This is my skillet. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My skillet is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my skillet is useless. Without my skillet, I am useless. I must season my skillet well. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My skillet and myself are the makers of my meal. We are the masters of our kitchen. So be it, until there are no ingredients, but dinner. Amen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is the reason cloven hoofed animals are forbidden too ?

Because Leviticus says so. The rules were handed down without explanation. If they don't make sense to you, tough. That's the way hashem rolls. Ex post facto rationalizations have been offered, which are just that: rationalizations.

"I think it's a matter of principle that one should always try to avoid eating one's friends."--Doctor Dolittle

blog: The Institute for Impure Science

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe some of our Israeli or otherwise knowledgeable members can comment, but my understanding is that there are in fact some butchers who can remove the sciatic nerve and render the cuts like the fillet kosher, but it's expensive and only supportable where there's a large enough community of people who keep kosher and can afford it. And after all, if a shochet is talented enough to excise the sciatic nerve from the porterhouse, why shouldn't they become a surgeon?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While we wait for the knowledgeable... I have a feeling that some of the dietary prohibitions come out of superstitious Bronze Age peoples' reactions to cross-species disease incubation. We know more in our times about the mechanisms that allow new diseases to evolve or emerge - like Avian Flu; Swine Flu; AIDS from hunters eating chimp/monkey; BSE from cattle fed Scrapie-exposed sheep remains.

I made this suggestion last year in conversation and my friend challenged the idea. He reckoned that the pork thing was simply because desert peoples don't want pigs wallowing in their limited water supplies: but that misses the fact that desertification in the Sahara region took place in two phases, around 1500BC and before that, around (IIRC) 2500 or 2000BC.

... why shouldn't they become a surgeon?

Isn't a surgeon just a butcher who's good at exams ? (boom, tss)

Edited by Blether (log)

QUIET!  People are trying to pontificate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is the reason cloven hoofed animals are forbidden too ?

Because Leviticus says so. The rules were handed down without explanation. If they don't make sense to you, tough. That's the way hashem rolls. Ex post facto rationalizations have been offered, which are just that: rationalizations.

As an old Rabbi of mine used to joke... ask 2 Jews and you will get 3 opinions. As the good gentleman above has it right about rationalizations. What would faith be if everything was explained? The best explanation I can give you is that by following the commandments we were given, we elevate the necessary task of eating to a conscientious act where thought is put into what we eat and how special and holy the creation of life is.

And after all, if a shochet is talented enough to excise the sciatic nerve from the porterhouse, why shouldn't they become a surgeon?

Quite often in the old days of the schtetel, sochets were also the moyel. You have to be careful h=who you buy you giblets from!

"Salt is born of the purest of parents: the sun and the sea." --Pythagoras.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quite often in the old days of the schtetel, sochets were also the moyel. You have to be careful h=who you buy you giblets from!

... and of course a haircut nowadays is something you get from your investment banker.

I'm enjoying hearing about Jewish customs - a culture I've had minimum exposure to - but

... The best explanation I can give you is that by following the commandments we were given, we elevate the necessary task of eating to a conscientious act where thought is put into what we eat and how special and holy the creation of life is...

- has to be the mother of all post-facto rationalisations :wink:

Edited by Blether (log)

QUIET!  People are trying to pontificate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The book "None of These Diseases" by S. I. McMillen looks at this from the perspective of a modern-day physician looking back over time. I have not personally read the book - I only know of it's existence.

One of the interesting tenants of those who follow the new testament also (no offense intended to those who are still practicing Jews) is that the prohibition was removed for those who had kept kosher after the founding of the new testament church.

Porthos Potwatcher
The Once and Future Cook

;

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The book "None of These Diseases" by S. I. McMillen looks at this from the perspective of a modern-day physician looking back over time. I have not personally read the book - I only know of it's existence.

One of the interesting tenants of those who follow the new testament also (no offense intended to those who are still practicing Jews) is that the prohibition was removed for those who had kept kosher after the founding of the new testament church.

No offense taken by most, if not all of us.

When reading what you wrote, I thought, you know what ? "WHAT," thundered from above...

Maybe, that's what JC was trying to do (if he really existed) , make a Jewish Vatican II ! Change the kosher laws as example.

Myself having enough knowledge to be dangerous, I do not believe that he ever intended to start a new religion but wanted to reform, the old. Someone up thread mentioning that pigs are, well, like pigs and are very messy. Probably way back when, we did not have the husbandry knowledge to raise them along side, say chickens.

I think the book you mention probably addresses all this. Meaning there WERE good reasons for not eating certain foods during certain times, but with out knowledge today. most edible foods are OK to eat if properly cared & prepared.

Edited by Aloha Steve (log)

edited for grammar & spelling. I do it 95% of my posts so I'll state it here. :)

"I have never developed indigestion from eating my words."-- Winston Churchill

Talk doesn't cook rice. ~ Chinese Proverb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because Leviticus says so. The rules were handed down without explanation. If they don't make sense to you, tough. That's the way hashem rolls. Ex post facto rationalizations have been offered, which are just that: rationalizations.

The thought of doing anything because Leviticus says so rubs me the wrong way ... BUT! At least we only preserved his dictums about what end of a cow to eat, and not the ones about our moral obligations to stone people to death for working on the sabbath or for blasphemy, or the ones about it being ok to sell our daughters into slavery.

Notes from the underbelly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we are getting a little bit off the track here. I think we should just go and eat something - no?

Jmahl

The Philip Mahl Community teaching kitchen is now open. Check it out. "Philip Mahl Memorial Kitchen" on Facebook. Website coming soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read this post this morning and it interested me in some strange historical way I'm not sure I can explain. But Wikipedia didn't provide any answers. I can say that from things I've learned and seen, that I think the whole concept of Kosher or Halal comes from guilt. It's more acceptable to slaughter and eat one of God's creatures if we do it in way a prescribed by Him.

But I found a reference to a proper method of slaughtering a cow and it involved suspending them from their hindquarters and then dispatching them with a decisive cut at the throat.

Given that blood is verboten in both Kosher and Halal, perhaps there is a physical impediment to blood draining out of the back half of the animal when 'done' in this way. So, perhaps someone does this and discovers that the further back they get in the butchering process, the more blood there is. At some point you have to draw a line.

Just a hypothesis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't recall who performed it, but I dimly remember a comedy sketch from some years ago, wherein the elders were establishing the rules by which people should live. The pigs were listening outside the window, and at a crucial moment interjected 'Don't eat pork!'.

On a slightly more serious note, I've been wondering what makes salt kosher or not. Can somebody enlighten me? Thanks.

Leslie Craven, aka "lesliec"
Host, eG Forumslcraven@egstaff.org

After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relatives ~ Oscar Wilde

My eG Foodblog

eGullet Ethics Code signatory

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On a slightly more serious note, I've been wondering what makes salt kosher or not. Can somebody enlighten me? Thanks.

Ahh .. my only practical piece of knowledge on the subject. All salt is kosher. What gets sold as "kosher salt" is salt like what's used for koshering meat and poultry; it's coarser than standard salt for this purpose.

Notes from the underbelly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On a slightly more serious note, I've been wondering what makes salt kosher or not. Can somebody enlighten me? Thanks.

Ahh .. my only practical piece of knowledge on the subject. All salt is kosher. What gets sold as "kosher salt" is salt like what's used for koshering meat and poultry; it's coarser than standard salt for this purpose.

Now I'm confused. My box of Kosher Salt states that it is "KOSHER FOR PASSOVER." My table salt, which is iodized, does not have any symbol or verbage about being kosher.

I am not jewish, just curious.

Porthos Potwatcher
The Once and Future Cook

;

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The hind quarters of cattle are kosher if the animal is processed according to the kosher dietary laws. That includes various standards for the condition of the animal before slaughter, the method of slaughter, butchering, salting and, in the case of the hind quarter, removing the sciatic nerve.

In the United States or any other overwhelming-majority-non-Jewish place, it generally makes little economic sense to remove the sciatic nerve. The forequarters can be processed for the kosher market and the hind quarters sold to the non-kosher market. Tom Colicchio once told me he got the steaks for Craft from a broker who sold the fore quarters to the kosher market and the hind quarters (which include major steakhouse cuts such as filet, strip and porterhouse) to the mainstream restaurant market.

It makes economic sense to do all the work of removing the sciatic nerve if you have no other way to sell the hind quarters. Thus in Israel, where there is so much more of a market for kosher meat as a percentage of the overall market and you have much more volume (and the resulting economies of scale) of kosher meat production, there are butchers who will do the work and it's possible to find kosher hind-quarter cuts.

In America if you want a good kosher steak your best bet is a rib eye. Kosher steaks, however, are altered by the salting process that draws out blood. So kosher steaks, while they can be quite good, can't compete on pure flavor with non-kosher ones all other things being equal. It's really when you get into braising cuts that kosher beef shines.

(Maybe there's someone in the US who is removing the sciatic nerve and selling kosher hind-quarter cuts, but I've never actually seen any for sale. Maybe they're out there. If there were people willing to pay money for it, I imagine someone would do it, but we're talking serious cost -- high-quality kosher meat in the US is already super-expensive without getting into this additional step.)

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now I'm confused. My box of Kosher Salt states that it is "KOSHER FOR PASSOVER." My table salt, which is iodized, does not have any symbol or verbage about being kosher.

I am not jewish, just curious.

If there is a label corresponding to one of the kosher-cop agencies, it means they had the plant inspected to be sure that no non-kosher-for passover ingredients were in there. Otherwise it means nothing; salt is by definition pareve.

"I think it's a matter of principle that one should always try to avoid eating one's friends."--Doctor Dolittle

blog: The Institute for Impure Science

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I think one of the reasons salts are labeled "kosher salt" is that they are the types of salt used in the "kashering" process...(i.e. drawing out the remaining blood after slaughter).

click.

Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"

Tasty Travails - My Blog

My eGullet FoodBog - A Tale of Two Boroughs

Was it you baby...or just a Brilliant Disguise?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there is a label corresponding to one of the kosher-cop agencies, it means they had the plant inspected to be sure that no non-kosher-for passover ingredients were in there. Otherwise it means nothing; salt is by definition pareve.

Thank you.

Porthos Potwatcher
The Once and Future Cook

;

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To us gentiles Kosher can be a very confusing topic. I can remember back years ago when I was beverage manager at a resort hotel they booked a Jewish group for Passover.

They portioned of a section of the kitchen to be certified as Kosher for the week. When the Rabbi came through to certify it he had a blowtorch which he was using to burn grease and debris out of the ovens. This led to a big time fire resulting in fire companies arriving amid much excitement.

I remember ordering a bunch of Kosher wine that the salesman told me I would need. Most of which took up space in the liquor room for a long time. We ended up pouring it by the glass in the bar for 50 cents a glass or something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there any difference in taste between kosher chicken and non ? I'be read someplace in EG that the poster preferred kosher chicken to non ?

edited for grammar & spelling. I do it 95% of my posts so I'll state it here. :)

"I have never developed indigestion from eating my words."-- Winston Churchill

Talk doesn't cook rice. ~ Chinese Proverb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there any difference in taste between kosher chicken and non ? I'be read someplace in EG that the poster preferred kosher chicken to non ?

Yes, I think there is. The koshering process, as you know, is salting the carcass/meat to draw out the blood. In essence, the chickens are "dry brined" in salt before they're packaged for sale.

I find them more flavorful and more juicy and moist than non-kosher brands, even (or maybe especially) the national ones like Foster Farms or Zacky. The other brand I know a lot of people like is Bell & Evans, but they're not sold locally for me, at least not that I've seen.

I get Empire Kosher chickens and chicken parts at Trader Joe's, and they're my go to, especially if I want just plain roasted, grilled or sauteed chicken. In stews/casseroles/heavily sauced things probably not so much of a difference.

Just don't brine a kosher chicken or you'll have a salt lick !

--Roberta--

"Let's slip out of these wet clothes, and into a dry Martini" - Robert Benchley

Pierogi's eG Foodblog

My *outside* blog, "A Pound Of Yeast"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well here in Israel we can get all parts of the cow by going to any local supermarket and all are kosher with the sciatic nerve and chelev removed. You have to actually go a bit out of your way to get something not kosher. I have a kosher supervisor who checks in on me weekly (as I have a kosher certificate for my small business) and I can ask him all the questions you can dream of. I will go back through the thread and make a list or you can just ask your questions here. I don't really keep kosher at home so I don't really know most of the rules correctly. Give me a few weeks as we are all busy now with holidays and Sabbaths (Mon-Passover, Tues-Passover, Friday and Sat the Mon again holiday and Tues we have the Morrocan celebrations for the end of Passover) and almost everyone is on holiday from work!! Including my kosher supervisor!

Anyway, here is a good basic explanation for many of the questions posed-probably many already found this link already!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...