Bread flour vs. AP flour in CCC recipe?

[chappie]

Snowed in with more on the way, I've decided to bury my winter insanities in copious amounts of baked goods and beer. Yesterday I made Cook's Illustrated's "perfect chocolate chip cookie" recipe; they're delicious (the browning of the butter is a big plus) but perhaps I baked a couple minutes too long because they're not the gooey chewy I was seeking.

Now I'm going to try Alton Brown's "The Chewy." Only, it calls for bread flour and all I have is AP with no chance right now to hit any stores.

What will happen if I use AP? Is there any tweaking I need to do?

Thanks in advance ... only other flours I have handy are rice flour and masa harina.

[Lisa Shock]

AP flours vary in gluten content regionally in the US. It's more like cake flour (low gluten) in the south, because it's used for biscuits, it's more like bread flour (higher gluten) in the north and west. I see that you're in Maryland, so your AP flour could go either way....

I don't think that there is an adjustment you can make, other than maybe kneading them a bit to develop what gluten you do have, just be aware that the cookies won't be as chewy.

[abooja]

What about adding a bit of vital wheat gluten to your dough?

If you use King Arthur All-Purpose flour, it's only 1% lower in protein content (at 11.7%) than their bread flour (12.7%), so the difference would be negligible.

BTW, I've tried both recipes, and now prefer the infamous New York Times salt-dusted chocolate chip cookies to both. It uses a combination of both bread and cake flours.

[chappie]

What about adding a bit of vital wheat gluten to your dough?

I don't have any of that on hand, and not going to any stores til at least Thursday.

I'll try the kneading, plus not overbaking. And I'll try the New York Times recipe after this one. Are they chewy? I can go any way except cake-ish. Thin crispy cookies are good, but so are moist, dense, chewy. That's what we're seeking, with what we have on hand.

[abooja]

Yes, they are chewy, a bit on the flat side, but never cake-ish. They tend to stay that way for a few days after baking. But they are a different sort of chewy compared to AB's "The Chewy". More dense, less puffy. Perhaps a bit sweet, but that is mitigated by the salt, and the abundance of bittersweet chocolate. Don't substitute semisweet for the bittersweet. I did once, in a fit of laziness (used chips), and they really suffered for it.

[paulraphael]

Adding gluten won't do the trick. The reason for the bread flour isn't actually for gluten development (which would just make a tough cookie). It's for the higher protein which will absorb more liquid, allowing for a moister, chewier texture and a bit more shelf life. if you have to substitute a lower protein flour, you'll have to reduce the total liquid ingredients in order to get the right consistency. The results won't be identical.

I use a mix of AP flour and oat flour (which you can make from whole oats). Oat flour has very high protein content but doesn't produce any gluten.

[stuartlikesstrudel]

Paul, 2 questions I'm wondering about in regards to your response :

1) My understanding is that gluten flour is very high protein (75% or so i think) so wouldn't using it increase the protein as well, just like in a bread flour which is higher protein AND higher gluten?

2) This is a more general concept which I've never quite been able to work out... I can understand that higher protein = more liquid absorption, which is good for bread so you can have a high % hydration which is often desirable. So, when we're baking a cake, why do we use cake flour which is LOW protein? My logic would say that by choosing lower protein it's going to absorb LESS liquid and therefore be less moist? But I like moist cake!

I know one recipe Dan Lepard created used some tapioca flour which can absorb a lot of moisture, I guess that's like what you're doing with the oat flour, to avoid gluten development but retain protein. But most recipes don't seem to do anything like that.

I've got a half-understanding of this kind of thing but not enough to really piece it all together.

[paulraphael]

My understanding is that gluten flour is very high protein (75% or so i think) so wouldn't using it increase the protein as well, just like in a bread flour which is higher protein AND higher gluten?

Sure ... high gluten flour is similar to bread flour. I was responding to a suggestion of adding vital wheat gluten to the dough (a product I'm not familiar with, but I believe it increases the gluten network in doughs).

[chappie]

To be honest, what I'm trying to achieve is the chewiness of those Nestle pre-mixed dough cookies (when not overbaked) without the artificial flavor. I would imagine they achieve their carefully tested results rather chemically. I want a simple homemade way to do this with better ingredients, darker chocolate, etc. One thing I'll keep from the Cook's recipe is browning at least some of the butter. Great depth of flavor this way.

[DanM]

I have had great success with King Arthur Flour's white whole wheat in chocolate chip cookies. The protein level is around 9%, which actually places it closer to whole wheat pastry flour. I have made many batches and people are constantly surprised that it is whole wheat.

Dan

[paulraphael]

I've worked on cc cookies with brown butter for years before Cook's Illustrated published theirs. I'm willing to bet this recipe will be better, based on ingredients and technique, although it's a bit more work. It addresses the chewiness issue directly with the use of oat flour and added moisture.

Edited February 13, 2010 by paulraphael (log)

[abooja]

I have had great success with King Arthur Flour's white whole wheat in chocolate chip cookies. The protein level is around 9%, which actually places it closer to whole wheat pastry flour. I have made many batches and people are constantly surprised that it is whole wheat.

According to KAF, their regular white whole wheat flour is 13.2% protein, while their organic white whole wheat flour is 14.5% protein. I don't doubt your success with this flour, having used it for cookies and brownies myself, but low protein flour it is not.

[rlibkind]

I would imagine [Nestle] achieve their carefully tested results rather chemically.

Certainly true, and I know what you mean. But when you get down to it, all baking is chemistry (plus physics).

[chappie]

I'm going to try paulraphael's linked recipe next.

But I did Alton Brown's "The Chewy" today -- browning the butter, which he didn't call for -- and taking into consideration the oat flour recommendation. Because the only adult oats I had were steel cut, which don't change much in a food processor, I suddenly had another idea. I used 1/4 cup of baby oatmeal. I know, it has other things added like DHA and iron etc. but I figured it's basically dried oat flour flakes, right?

They turned out quite well. I think the instructed 14 minutes was too long for what I wanted, though, so I pulled them at 11 so they're still gooey in the center. Haven't had one completely cooled, but I'll report back.

[chappie]

According to my wife: "Best chocolate chip cookies I've ever tasted."

Baby oatmeal it is, then.

[DanM]

I have had great success with King Arthur Flour's white whole wheat in chocolate chip cookies. The protein level is around 9%, which actually places it closer to whole wheat pastry flour. I have made many batches and people are constantly surprised that it is whole wheat.

According to KAF, their regular white whole wheat flour is 13.2% protein, while their organic white whole wheat flour is 14.5% protein. I don't doubt your success with this flour, having used it for cookies and brownies myself, but low protein flour it is not.

Thanks for catching that error. My 9% number came from this page on KAF's website. I wonder if there is that big of a difference between the commercial and consumer versions.

I'm going to try paulraphael's linked recipe next.

But I did Alton Brown's "The Chewy" today -- browning the butter, which he didn't call for -- and taking into consideration the oat flour recommendation. Because the only adult oats I had were steel cut, which don't change much in a food processor, I suddenly had another idea. I used 1/4 cup of baby oatmeal. I know, it has other things added like DHA and iron etc. but I figured it's basically dried oat flour flakes, right?

They turned out quite well. I think the instructed 14 minutes was too long for what I wanted, though, so I pulled them at 11 so they're still gooey in the center. Haven't had one completely cooled, but I'll report back.

I usually use 10% oat flour in my cookies. It gives the cookies a nutty and sweet flavor. It does not have gluten, so you don't get structure from it.

Dan

Edited February 20, 2010 by DanM (log)

[paulraphael]

I usually use 10% oat flour in my cookies. It gives the cookies a nutty and sweet flavor. It does not have gluten, so you don't get structure from it.

The structure in cookies actually comes from the starch in the flour (not gluten development) and from eggs. So you can use piles of oat flour if you want.

I settled on 25% by weight ... enough to enhance chewiness and add nutty notes, but not so much that it starts tasting like an oatmeal cookie. I found 33% to be too much.