Bay Leaves

[LuckyGirl]

For years I used bay leaves that a neighbor would bring back to the states from her travels to Lebanon.

Prior to that I would use whatever bay leaves were available from the regular or Mexican grocery store.

A while back (like a year or two ago), knowing that my stash was running low, I bought a package of bay leaves from Whole Foods (I think).

I just used these bay leaves today in a bean soup and they are SO perfumey and floral that I can not eat the soup. It is not a matter of over using the bay leaves, I put three very small ones in for the whole pot, but rather that these are the most perfumey bay leaves I've ever used. The perfume and flavor from these bay leaves is significantly different from any I've used before and not in a way that I care for.

I've written to the company that packaged the bay leaves to ask where they may be from as I would like to steer clear of them in the future.

This whole episode has me wondering if folks are partial to bay leaves from any place in particular or to a particular species.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Sounds like you may have gotten leaves from the California Bay, Umbellularia californica. It's a fairly distant relation to the true mediterranean bay laurel.

I started grabbing a few leaves here and there when hiking, and really like the stronger flavor of these vs the mediterranean laurel leaves. I like them so much I have two of them in my yard right now, one potted, and one in the ground (and I certify their leaves are organically produced). But I can completely understand how you the difference might be rather shocking if you weren't expecting it!

Edited November 8, 2009 by Wholemeal Crank (log)

[Wholemeal Crank]

Been trying to rustle up an old newspaper article I read about someone who had agreements with various landowners to go pick their California Bay leaves for their spice company, but can't find the reference. I think Morton & Bassett may use them, based on the images on their site and recollections of unusually long, dark leaves in the jars on the shelves in stores. They don't fess up to theis on their web site, however--it says not a peep of umbellularia or laurus nobilis.

[qrn]

buy a larus nobilis plant and keep it in the window,,,as WC said, that is the real thing, and the plant will last for a long time...Mine is almost 20 years old and still doing well...

Bud

[Wholemeal Crank]

Laurus nobilis are pretty easy to find plant nurseries and online. The umbellularia is quite a bit harder to find, so you're not likely to end up with the wrong plant.

[LuckyGirl]

O.K. I think I may give a plant a try, larus nobilis. I keep orchids and manage not to harm them too much but when I tried to keep a kaffir lime tree, indoors so I could have fresh leaves on hand, that didn't go so well.

This is from the response I received from the company (how's about that for a quick response, Saturday evening no less)-

"We have a couple of different varieties that we supply. We use real Bay Laurel grown in Colombia. We also have available California Bay, grown in the States.

Based on the description you give of the product, I’d be inclined to say you got the Bay Laurel."

This seems to be the opposite of what you are saying doesn't it Wholemeal Crank? The leaves that I have are very small compared to any other bay leaf I've ever seen.

I am so bummed about this. I have a whole pot of soup that I can't eat. I even added a whole head of roasted garlic hoping that might mask some of the perfume but in a weird way it sort of intensified it. Fortunately, my husband says he doesn't find it too bad. He doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bothered by the perfuminess as I am. He says he thinks he tastes what I am talking about but for him, on a scale of 1-10 it is maybe a three while for me it is like an 8 or 9. Weird.

I hope I never come across this particular bay leaf again.

Wholemeal Crank, I would be curious to try what you have in your yard if you wouldn't mind sending it. I'll trade you for some nice Dragonwell

[LuckyGirl]

So, based on the few pics I have looked at on the 'net it does seem like what I have are the umbellularia, or California bay leaves. They seem to be slightly narrow while the laurus nobilis look a little wider and more like those I'm used to.

[andiesenji]

Also the California bay has a slightly toxic content and leaves harvested from trees that are near areas that have been threatened by fire may have absorbed chemicals from the run-off from these areas.

There have been several bulletins cautioning against using it for culinary purposes.

http://www.paleotechnics.com/Articles/Bayarticle.html

I live in the high desert and have several laurel nobilis growing in my herb garden. They have acclimated and have not been harmed by temps down to 12° F., although there was some browning of the leaves.

The first couple of years they were in tubs and were taken in during the nights when very low temps were predicted but after planting in the ground I used tarps to protect them for the first few years and since then have left then on their own.

The leaves are very aromatic when they are fresh. Use much less than you would ordinarily. I stew half a leaf in 2 cups of milk for custards, where with older leaves I would use two.

In a bean soup as you describe, it is best to use one leaf and remove it after fifteen minutes, which should be enough.

[Katie Meadow]

I've used CA bay leaves and they are very potent. Last time I bought bay leaves I bought Morton and Bassett. They are indeed very large, and very strong tasting, and I just assumed they were CA bay leaves, although I don't really know. My bottle of M & B lasted an awfully long time; I use a half a leaf for one pot of beans, or a pot of anything, for that matter. They do seem to be less strong now that I'm practically at the end of the bottle, but no surprise there.

[thock]

Maybe I don't know what to look for, but I've NEVER been able to tell the difference when I've used/not used bay of any variety. Is it perhaps one of those tastes that is individual, so that certain people can taste it and others cannot? This concerns me a bit because I have tasted the fresh leaves from my bay laurel tree (in a pot) and they have not seemed terribly strong, and neither have the dry leaves I've obtained from various sources, like the grocery store or an Asian market.

[d+d]

I really like the Bay Leaves from Morton & Bassett

[Wholemeal Crank]

Fresh California Bay leaves are do make a difference most anyone can notice; I can imagine not missing the typical old, crumbly, dry laurus nobilis. Because they're so strong, they're used in even smaller quantities than the laurus, so small that it's hard to imagine a seriously toxic consequence of the occasional wild-grown leaf.

I really got interested in them when I was trying to make an unusual bread from one of Paula Wolfert's books that starts out with a tea made with bay and cinnamon, and was amazed by the difference between two batches made in short succession--one with regular dried laurus nobilis, and one made with fresh umbellularia leaves. The latter was so fragrant as to be intoxicating, the former was interesting but bland. The starter never worked properly, so I can't say anything for sure about the bread. But it got me paying attention to the bay leaves.

[sparrowgrass]

Thock, I am with you. I bought Penzeys bay leaves, and can't detect any flavor from them. Or aroma, for that matter. Maybe we are lacking the bay leaf receptor gene?

[andiesenji]

Commercially labeled products indicating "Bay Leaves" must be only from Laurel Nobilis.

California bay leaves must be labeled as such and wildcrafted leaves must include the certificate number indicating the source area as they are usually collected in state parks or national parks and a permit is necessary.

One problem with using California bay leaves for culinary purposes is that some people are extremely sensitive to one or more of the components and can develop migraine headaches even with extremely tiny amounts.

My local health food store does sell the certified organic California bay leaves for medicinal purposes but advises that people who are subject to migraine headaches and people who have epilepsy should not be exposed to the leaves.

By all means use them if you like the flavor (tastes like eucalyptus to me) but if you are going to serve a dish to other people be sure that they know what they are getting.

I would advise against picking leaves from plants with which you are not familiar as there are other plants, with almost identical appearing leaves which are truly toxic. If you live in the eastern part of the country there is Mountain laurel - easy to identify in the spring because it has showy flowers whereas the Laurel nobilis has tiny, yellowish flowers. Mountain laurel is poisonous to many animals as well as to humans.

There are other sources for "bay" leaves that are suitable for culinary purposes. I have purchased Indian Bay leaves (Cinnamomum tejpata) when they were sold by Ethnic Grocer a few years ago. The flavor is nothing like bay laurel but has its own attractions.

I also tried to purchase some Java or Indonesian bay leaves but was unsuccessful because the package was seized by customs.

There is a Canary Island Bay tree (Laurus canariensis) at the Los Angeles Arboretum and its leaves can be used for culinary purposes (one of the arborists gave me a few leaves) but the flavor is much milder and in any event it is now a protected species and it is difficult to obtain specimen plants.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Commercially labeled products indicating "Bay Leaves" must be only from Laurel Nobilis.

Not clear how Morton & Bassett gets around this, as their e-mail referenced above suggests they use both interchangeably.

Good point about being sure of your plants and leaves: where I go hiking in the California coastal ranges, the California Bay is very common, and I know the tree well. I just finished reading Wicked Plants and am freshly versed in the possibilities of problems with the wrong plants, and would not recommend anyone sample unfamiliar plants!

I was not aware of the headache connection with umbellularia: I found it difficult to find any references to it when I was first learning about it, long before wikipedia, but I learned about it's culinary uses here before I ever tried the leaves. I also once collected a few nuts and tried to process and roast them per the instructions in that book (they were eaten by native americans), but found them quite unpalatable.

[andiesenji]

I checked the Morton & Bassett site and did not see any reference to umbellularia.

There are USDA bulletins specifically referencing the source identification of bay leaves, both domestic and imported (especially the Turkish imports).

Bulk leaves were seized from several Hispanic markets in California a couple of years ago because the source was not identified and there were insect eggs and larvae and the leaves had not been irradiated.

Umbellularia, unlike the true Laurel nobilis is one of the trees especially attractive to Japanese beetles.

The leaves often exhibit small black spots which indicate infestation by scale insects (rarely seen on the true bay). Don't use such leaves as there is a mold associated with these insects which is questionable.

UC Davis has done several studies on this tree, also at the Stanislaus Co. extension of UC.

I studied quite a bit about these and other trees and plants when establishing my herb garden some twenty years ago. There was no internet then, although I was a subscriber to Compuserv and BMUG back in those days and collected a lot of paperwork about the plants in which I was interested.

Here's another site that mentions the different varieties of bay leaves:

http://www.spice-trade.com/bay-leaf.html

And here is a site that offers the wildcrafted California bay:

http://worldofgood.ebay.com/California-Bay-Leaves-wildcrafted/350169932749/item

Click on "See full description"

Edited November 8, 2009 by andiesenji (log)

[thock]

Thock, I am with you. I bought Penzeys bay leaves, and can't detect any flavor from them. Or aroma, for that matter. Maybe we are lacking the bay leaf receptor gene?

I wonder if you have to do something with them, like steep them in water, to get any fragrance or flavor from them.

[Wholemeal Crank]

I didn't find anything about umbellularia on the MB& site either, but LuckyGirl referenced an e-mail from the company here.

I don't know if their California Bay is labelled differently or not. But I thought I had seen the darker green and more elongate leaf appearance that I associate with the California Bay in their jars. I have never *bought* their leaves, however, and they may simply have fresher L nobilis leaves that are not as sad and washed out as what we usually find in the supermarket.

Horticulturally, U. californica is now in the news as a major natural host for the cause of sudden oak death, Phytophthora ramorum. It gets infected but not usually sickened by the pathogen. Probably not a good idea to plant one, if you can find it, if you have oaks around.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Ooops, just rereading and realized I assumed LuckyGirl was referring to M&B, my mistake. I do recall seeing leaves from them that reminded me of the california laurel, but was conflating two posts when assuming they were who she had written to.

[andiesenji]

I just took some pics of some of my bay trees/bushes.

You can see the leaves vary greatly in size and the ones that I think have the most flavor are the darker, year-old leaves.

You can see white residue on some of the leaves and those are on the bush that is most exposed to the sun and wind whereas the others are shaded during the hottest part of the day.

I think the response of the tree is to exude something onto the surface of the leaves to protect them from the heat and the wind. Those leaves seem to have less aroma. Just brushing against some of the leaves will release a sweet aroma and it remains on my sleeves or gloves, especially when I have been cutting them.

I simply pick the leaves and dry them at room temp in a wire colander, tossing them once a day or so, until they are dry and brittle.

[OliverB]

just wondering, why dry them, and not use them fresh? That's what I do, I have a small tree in a pot at the front door, same it seems as the pix above. I just pick a couple leaves, crumble them and use them that way, I don't dry them at all, as the bush does not loose it's leaves. I'm also gonna get a California Bay tree, I pick leaves off them on a local mountain when up there, just haven't found it in a nursery yet. Stronger smelling, but not THAT much stronger, at least to me. Work well for cooking, curious why there'd be those warnings with those? I don't get migraines , why would this leaf trigger them? Interesting.

[thock]

Oh, wow, Andie! That looks good!

I have a tiny 6" tall plant and a larger 18" plant. The little one is doing fine, but the larger one is having issues. The leaves look very dry, but the tree has been adequately watered, perhaps too adequately, if you know what I mean. I'm going to let it dry out a bunch before I water it again, but I hope I haven't killed it.

I opened a jar of some dried bay leaves I've had for a while, and I don't get much smell from them, but if I bite off a tiny bit, I can taste something. I couldn't smell anything from the tiny tree, but I still got a little taste from that. I took both to my SO, who has a super smeller, and he said the dried leaves are fragrant, but the live tree is not.

My guess is I have issues with my nose. Bummer. I can smell other stuff, like lavender and rosemary, so what's the deal with bay?

[andiesenji]

just wondering, why dry them, and not use them fresh? That's what I do, I have a small tree in a pot at the front door, same it seems as the pix above. I just pick a couple leaves, crumble them and use them that way, I don't dry them at all, as the bush does not loose it's leaves. I'm also gonna get a California Bay tree, I pick leaves off them on a local mountain when up there, just haven't found it in a nursery yet. Stronger smelling, but not THAT much stronger, at least to me. Work well for cooking, curious why there'd be those warnings with those? I don't get migraines , why would this leaf trigger them? Interesting.

It triggers migraines in people who are subject to them. It doesn't bother me, I have never had a migraine, in fact, I rarely get headaches at all. However, when I have handled the California bay leaves I have developed a rash on the webbing between my fingers. That's enough to convince me not to use them.

I do use my bay leaves fresh but I gather them for drying when I plan to use them in crafting herb bouquets for gifting. I also dry them to add them to containers of grains, flours and beans, etc., to repel insects. I scatter them on the shelves in my pantry.

The warnings have a purpose because there is a toxic component in the leaves. And also the trees should not be planted anywhere near oak trees or related plants and certainly not near a place where other culinary herbs or vegetables and fruits are grown.

That is why there are restrictions on moving the trees and why nurseries often will not carry them.

There is a hefty fine for taking saplings from state and national forests.

[andiesenji]

Oh, wow, Andie! That looks good!

I have a tiny 6" tall plant and a larger 18" plant. The little one is doing fine, but the larger one is having issues. The leaves look very dry, but the tree has been adequately watered, perhaps too adequately, if you know what I mean. I'm going to let it dry out a bunch before I water it again, but I hope I haven't killed it.

I opened a jar of some dried bay leaves I've had for a while, and I don't get much smell from them, but if I bite off a tiny bit, I can taste something. I couldn't smell anything from the tiny tree, but I still got a little taste from that. I took both to my SO, who has a super smeller, and he said the dried leaves are fragrant, but the live tree is not.

My guess is I have issues with my nose. Bummer. I can smell other stuff, like lavender and rosemary, so what's the deal with bay?

Lavender and rosemary are very strong - another dominant herb is oregano - sometimes after sniffing oregano it will take me a while to get back to a neutral sense so I can pick up other scents.

It is always best to sort herbs by starting with the mildest and working up to the stronger. And don't sniff at citrus before checking herbs - the citrus oils can alter your perception of the herbs.

Every person is different in what they can sense either by smell or taste. Some people have very sensitive noses and can pick up certain components when other people are aware of nothing.

Sometimes it also depends on the centers in the brain that control the senses.

I have a very sensitive nose and can taste even extremely faint flavors.

On the other hand, I am one of the rare individuals that has no THC receptors so my brain is missing one thing but apparently made up for it by allowing me a better sense of smell.

[OliverB]

interesting, thanks! That fine is the reason I don't have a Cali bush yet, I have yet to find a little one where it's ok to take it or order it from the nursery. It smells great on top of Mt Diablo on a hot summer day, hiking amongst hundreds of these. Never had any issues from handling them.

Interesting idea with putting them in the pantry, will they keep those tiny moths away that sometimes get into nuts or flour etc?