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Chris Amirault

Green Mold on Dry-Cured Sausages?!

45 posts in this topic

I would add to the above, if you want to be scrupulous: inoculate with desired surface mold.


Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

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Regarding the humidity, it does seem to be beneficial to avoid allowing it to go excessively high.

However, that applies to conditions very near indeed to the sausage casing -- not just to wherever the chamber sensor happens to be!

Therefore some air movement (just a little) has to be beneficial, to even out the humidity throughout the chamber.

Randomness and change of airflow direction would be needed to prevent establishment of regular flow patterns, which could consolidate humidity differences rather than removing them!

The Marianski's prescribe different airflow speeds at different stages of the sausage cure, but I think that may be more to do with the rate at which the sausages are shedding moisture, rather than direct consideration of the microflora.

If one was being really serious about surface moulds, I suppose one could begin by irradiating the outside of the sausage(s) with UV light, to knock back the inevitable collection of environmental moulds, and only after that, inoculate the surface with a desirable mould culture.

UV would have the advantage of not leaving an anti-fungal residue to impede the desired culture establishing itself.

Regarding the action of 'good' moulds to combat 'bad' ones, one very relevant paper would seem to be

Molds as Protective Cultures for Raw Dry Sausages (published 1994 and 1995)

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/iafp...000010/art00017

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/iafp...000007/art00019

Abstract:

Mold strains T11 and T19 belonging to Penicillium camemberti and N1 of Penicillium nalgiovensis were used as protective cultures for production of raw dry sausages. Their use completely eliminated the growth of undesirable molds, originating from the natural house mycoflora, which often produce mycotoxins and lead to several other defects. Potassium sorbate (KS), an antifungal agent, was also tested for protecting sausages against the growth of molds but its effect was short lived. The use of T11, T19 and N1 mold strains also improved the organoleptic qualities of the sausages.

So, could Camembert rind not merely be good, but could it actually be the ideal inoculum for a 'good' sausage casing culture ? :cool:

Has anyone got access to the experimental detail in this paper? (For example, did they use the Camemberti and Nagiovensis alone or only together?)

Regarding washing off bad moulds. I can see some advantage in using an acidified wash to discourage some of those 'bad' moulds returning. But some bad ones are fairly acid-tolerant, so its not a magic bullet.

I have no idea what the fungal effect of rubbing down with olive oil might be. It may just add a flavour to conceal any trace of 'mouldiness'!

I recall reading that some moulds can send 'long' filaments 'deep' into their food substrates.

I'm not at all sure how true that might be.

It could easily be the case that any such filaments are merely 'long' in comparison to the microscopic mould fungi, rather than meaning 'longer than half an inch'.


"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

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If fuzzy, green mold shows up... wash down with a vinegar solution as per Sam's post? rub with olive oil as per the Barcelona dude? let it bloom, bloom, bloom as per the Calabria dudes?

I came across this paragraph while reading Pamela Sheldon Johns' Prosciutto Pancetta Salame.

Mold is an important effect of the aging process. As it develops on the surface of the meat, it regulates humidity, allowing the product to dry slowly and uniformly. In the first three or four days, white mold grows only near the lean parts. After two or three months, the skin is uniformly covered in white or gray to green mold. The amino acids and peptides in the meat react with beneficial molds to neutralize any nonbeneficial molds. Controlling the temperature and humidity helps to avoid the production of toxic molds; the ideal conditions are temperatures under 20 degrees C (70 degrees F), with a relative humidity lower than 80 percent.

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Wiping with olive oil would seem to slow or end moisture evaporation from the sausage, so I'd think that only applied to a fully cured sausage if at all.


"You dont know everything in the world! You just know how to read!" -an ah-hah! moment for 6-yr old Miss O.

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If fuzzy, green mold shows up... wash down with a vinegar solution as per Sam's post? rub with olive oil as per the Barcelona dude? let it bloom, bloom, bloom as per the Calabria dudes?

I came across this paragraph while reading Pamela Sheldon Johns' Prosciutto Pancetta Salame.

Mold is an important effect of the aging process. As it develops on the surface of the meat, it regulates humidity, allowing the product to dry slowly and uniformly. In the first three or four days, white mold grows only near the lean parts. After two or three months, the skin is uniformly covered in white or gray to green mold. The amino acids and peptides in the meat react with beneficial molds to neutralize any nonbeneficial molds. Controlling the temperature and humidity helps to avoid the production of toxic molds; the ideal conditions are temperatures under 20 degrees C (70 degrees F), with a relative humidity lower than 80 percent.

Like everything else, there seems to be some people who swear that it needs to be one way or you die, and others that claim the exact opposite. Those photos of the green mold on those professionally made salamis are eye opening for sure, and lead me to believe that it is a natural part of the aging process as the above quote states.

I am in the middle of my 3rd try at salami, dry curing in a wine fridge with a humidifier and a humidistat, and have not had mold to speak of during my first 2 batches. But this current project, which has been drying for a week, looks like it is about to bloom hard. I'll see what happens but I now think I'm going to refrain from wiping off any mold until the aging process is complete.

Incubation

VENISONSALAMI002.jpg

after one week

VENISONSALAMI016.jpg

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...

Regarding the action of 'good' moulds to combat 'bad' ones, one very relevant paper would seem to be

Molds as Protective Cultures for Raw Dry Sausages (published 1994 and 1995)

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/iafp...000010/art00017

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/iafp...000007/art00019

Abstract:

Mold strains T11 and T19 belonging to Penicillium camemberti and N1 of Penicillium nalgiovensis were used as protective cultures for production of raw dry sausages. Their use completely eliminated the growth of undesirable molds, originating from the natural house mycoflora, which often produce mycotoxins and lead to several other defects. Potassium sorbate (KS), an antifungal agent, was also tested for protecting sausages against the growth of molds but its effect was short lived. The use of T11, T19 and N1 mold strains also improved the organoleptic qualities of the sausages.

So, could Camembert rind not merely be good, but could it actually be the ideal inoculum for a 'good' sausage casing culture ? :cool:

Has anyone got access to the experimental detail in this paper? (For example, did they use the Camemberti and Nalgiovensis alone or only together?)

...

One more datapoint.

From a new (to me at least) page on the Butcher & Packer website:

Mold-600 is a single strain culture containing spores of Penicillium nalgiovense in a convenient freeze-dried form. P. nalgiovense is a fast growing, traditional white mold culture for controlling the surface flora.

Mold-600 is particularly recommended for the production of traditional sausages dried at low temperature and/or low humidity.

Mold-600 suppresses the growth of undesirable organisms such as indigenous molds, yeasts and bacteria. The culture has a positive effect on the drying process by preventing the emergence of a dry rim. Furthermore, the mold degrades lactic acid during maturation resulting in a pH increase and a less sourish flavor.

http://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207&products_id=334

Bactiferm 600 was M-EK-54. Seems it is and was a particular P. Nalgiovense. Only.

Interesting that it should reduce the acidity that is one protection against C. botulinum.


Edited by dougal (log)

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

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Since the mold operates on the surface, where one isn't concerned about C. botulinum due to the presence of oxygen, I wouldn't think the alteration of the pH there would be of any concern. Interesting that we can add one more "good" mold to the list. I don't know anything about P. Nalgiovense---you?


Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

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I've been studying through the forums and have not found any comment on this - perhaps I missed it. My first batch of sausage turned into land fill due to wild molds and yeast. Thereafter I immersed the sausage after stuffing in a M-Ek bath. Beautiful snow white cover, beautiful red center, right consitancy, etc. etc. Except they taste moldy, or musty. so much so, for my palate that I can't enjoy them. I used T-SPx as the starter. I am going to try immersing the naxt batch and in potassium sorbate to see if I can get the flavor i want without the musty taste. I wouldmuch prefer molded casings but........

any thoughts?iphone pics marks 02032009 047.JPG

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Did you eat it with the mold still on, or take it off? I think in some respects sausages are like cheese: some people like the rind and some don't. I'd be curious to know how "moldy" it tasted if you remove the skin entirely, as well, as I saw them doing at the Calabria Pork Store.


Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

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Have you eaten sausages from other producers that you can compare yours to? I've eaten a number of sausages that were sold (and eaten) casing on and mold intact, without any negative flavors that I could discern. Are you sure the mold on the exterior is to blame for the flavor problems, and not the recipe or other aspect of the production?


Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

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Have you eaten sausages from other producers that you can compare yours to? I've eaten a number of sausages that were sold (and eaten) casing on and mold intact, without any negative flavors that I could discern. Are you sure the mold on the exterior is to blame for the flavor problems, and not the recipe or other aspect of the production?

100% positve? No. But I am fairly sure that I am OK on other aspects of production. I am producing it in a commercial kitchen, am a trained chef, etc. etc. I have a nagging feeling that there is something simple I am missing but I know not what. I'll try it with the potassium sorbate and see what happens. Any other advice gratefully accepted.

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Another possible answer is to use a weak vinegar solution to wipe down the sausages and prevent the mold from forming at all. While the mold may be aesthetically pleasing, if it doesn't taste good...


Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

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Bump, I''m new here and discovered this forum (great place by the way) while searching for a solution to my humidity issues in my curing chamber and excessive green mold.

I have consistent high humidity 85 to 94% and cant seem to get it down unless I open the door multiple times per day which I dont have the time to do nor am I near it on a daily basis to do so.

I've tried a salt trey in the bottom but its had no noticeable effect

next step is to try a ceramic bulb.

Has anyone found a good solution since this thread died out?

The RH outside of the fridge is 30-40% so the only thing I can figure is causing the high RH is the moisture coming off the meat, does that sound right?

thank you

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you need to force your fridge to cycle more often.

ceramic bulb.

Bingo, I added a ceramic bulb and its forcing the freezer to cycle more thus removing humidity from the freezer

The chamber is at a place I work that is 20+ minutes from my house so I bought a Wireless Monitor System with dry probe that allows me to tie into the WIFI at the restaurant and it sends the data to a website I can login and view the current (& past) temperature & RH. It also charts the temperature & RH changes, its pretty cool, here's a screenshot:

charcchart.jpg

thanks for your reply

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Hey Gents, this topic was started by Chris in 2009, what a great topic and I go back to his original beautiful recognizable photos of sausage as how I know it!

I have been making this stuff for some 20 years and never used a chamber or starter. I believe the starter is in ones mix (naturally).

I can understand a product for the masses but, then is not the sausage master & product diminished ? Anyway,

I had my best year last year beginning December and this year with yet a proscuitto and some loins & capicola's yet curing. I made approximately 200 lbs which will yield about 90 lbs when finished. I haven't found the button on how to load photos like Chris but I think I may have to load to this server first? Oh got it! (More reply options button on the bottom right)!IMG_6162.jpg The ham or proscuitto will age through the summer almost one year total.IMG_6145.JPG some sausageIMG_6144.JPGsome more sausage/sopressatta IMG_6343.jpg testing the product wow!IMG_6137.jpgIMG_6136.jpgIMG_6100.jpgIMG_6096.jpg  Currently I only make it for family and friends but if anyone is ever over to Indiahoma, Oklahoma stop in for a free sample.

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Wiping with olive oil would seem to slow or end moisture evaporation from the sausage, so I'd think that only applied to a fully cured sausage if at all.

Thats right, at some point its good to stop or slow the drying process otherwise it will taste like a Tony Lama boot! plus the olive oil shines the appearance of the retail product. Good link for olive oil chemical breakdown.

 http://www.oliveoilsource.com/page/chemical-characteristics

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Fermented at 30C (98% humidity) for 3 days, dropping to 13C (75%) over the last 3 days.

I had a piece of salami skin that I mixed in dextrose solution to try to cultivate the right mold.   It had been frozen and quite possibly more than once - a lot of lengthy power cuts where I live - and the suppliers don't have very strict guidance given to them.

 

http://SGn8Lvzl.jpg

 

So my question is: has anyone seen this type of mold before and lived to tell the tale?

 

http://V23B364l.jpg


Edited by Richard Burton (log)

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