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The Cost of Fine Dining


Nargi

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Let me preface this by saying that, yes, some of this question comes out of some amount of jealousy, but it's more rooted in curiosity and wondering of how certain things are able to occur. That said:

I'm 25, I'm a chef (yes, a chef, not a cook, not a student, an actual chef), I live in San Diego. Now granted, I'm not Thomas Keller, I don't make a ton of money, and I often subsidize my income by teaching classes and doing catering events here and there. I often try to eat out as much as I can, both to learn about food culture and to further my education in my career. I have the same expenses as most people. I have rent, a car payment, insurance, bills, groceries, etc. And aside from buying books (of which I have quite a few), I really don't spend money on anything other than those necessities. Yet, when it comes to eating out, I find I can afford to eat at "nice" restaurants maybe twice a month.

Here's my actual question: How is it that it seems that everything other than me on eGullet can take yearly (if not quarterly or monthly) trips to culinary hotspots around the globe? How is it that a far larger number than I would've imagined are "regulars" at places like Per Se and The Fat Duck? How is it that people can afford to "test" cooking wagyu beef and foie gras in their kitchen with PacoJets and immersion circulators?

A lot of people seem to be younger than me. In that regard, I can only assume either they've received a large inheritance or their parents subsidize their culinary adventures. On the flip side, are most of you in extremely high-paying careers? Are you doctors or lawyers or investment bankers?

I'm really curious to know. There are people here who claim not to be professionals in the food world yet know more than me about many subjects. I study day and night while working IN this field and feel like I learn tons of things every day. Yet in that same regard, people can seem to know all this and still work in other field. I'm assuming that any of you are quite as few year older than I am, but still, I'm astounded.

Someone help a brother out.

I've never eaten a Hot Pocket and thought "I'm glad I ate that."

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I never worry about how they do it I just want to go along for the ride : )

But any site dedicated (somewhat) to the finer things in life will draw an upscale crowd. We do seem to have a lot of lawyers, doctors, and writers but lots of members also making the decision to drive the old car one more year just to go to Paris (ok 2 more years).

T

The great thing about barbeque is that when you get hungry 3 hours later....you can lick your fingers

Maxine

Avoid cutting yourself while slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them while you chop away.

"It is the government's fault, they've eaten everything."

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I never worry about how they do it I just want to go along for the ride : )

But any site dedicated (somewhat) to the finer things in life will draw an upscale crowd. We do seem to have a lot of lawyers, doctors, and writers but lots of members also making the decision to drive the old car one more year just to go to Paris (ok 2 more years).

T

yeah, that makes sense. sort of forgoing some other nicer things in life in order to save up for the food-related ones.

I've never eaten a Hot Pocket and thought "I'm glad I ate that."

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You know, if you're a chef you can probably deduct your meals at restaurants as a business expense on your taxes, as you are educating yourself and learning to be a better chef. Not every meal, of course, just the ones where you're actually learning something.

Caveat: I am not an accountant.

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Actually we were all talking about you last night when we had dinner together, you know all of the eG members beside you, and we decided that you deserved a trip to Barcelona so we passed the hat. I think we have your cab fare covered :raz:

Just keep perspective. 1) Most eG people don't live the life of Kent Wang and Docsconz (but we all wish we did); 2) I did far more traveling at 25 than I do now that I'm tied down to a business, a partner, dogs...life. I haven't had a good trip in over a decade, and I'm excited as all gitout about my trip to Phoenix in two weeks. Just keep perspective.

As far as learning, eG attracts the obsessive types like any other focused forum will. We like to learn whether it be from each other or books, magazines, websites, etc. I knew nothing my first day in eG and now I know next to nothing, so that's progress.

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Ok, gfron1, I'll bite :laugh:

I make a decent living, but have my expenses, etc. and can't afford an unlimited travel or dining budget. For me it is a question of priorities and philosophy. I have seen too many people work hard and save all their lives for a retirement that never comes or if if it does come, it doesn't last or they can't enjoy it. I believe that while one shouldn't forget to think about the future, neither should one forget the present. When one is older, often the most valuable things one has are memories. Food, family and travel are priorities for me, so I spend more than I should on those things. I am also fortunate that my job allows for a lot of time off.

John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."

- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

Docsconz - Musings on Food and Life

Slow Food Saratoga Region - Co-Founder

Twitter - @docsconz

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yeah, we've watch you bite your way all across the world! :)

But I'll third that statement. Whether it be driving a clunker for a couple of extra years or me spending my money on cookbooks and nice meals before painting my ugly house, it is a matter of priorities. Somehow we find the time and money to do what we want to do.

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I make some small fraction of the good Dr. Sconzo (:wink:) and I can't afford to hit Daniel or French Laundry on a regular basis. My budget allows us to eat out once a week, and that's usually one of our regular rotation of excellent "ethnic" spots. However, I've saved my pennies prior to trips to make meals at, say, Alinea possible, especially when traveling out of town. I've also learned that, in many cities, you can eat excellent, compelling food at restaurants that are not at the highest price points. (Jose Andres's Zaytinya, in DC, is a great example.)

In addtion, many other higher-end meals often aren't as expensive as people think. My trip to StudioKitchen, documented here, cost $100 pp, I think -- not Mickey D's but certainly in the neighborhood of high-end New England joints. I coudn't drop $100 pp every week, but I can do it once in a while, especially if I am pretty sure the meal will be worth it.

So: yeah, priorities. I'll eat rice and beans for a month for a crack at Alinea. In fact, I think that I had to eat rice and beans for a month when the bill came for Alinea....

Chris Amirault

eG Ethics Signatory

Sir Luscious got gator belts and patty melts

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Somehow we find the time and money to do what we want to do.

yep

I would also say that "people here who claim not to be professionals in the food world yet know more than [you] about many subjects" learn a lot from eGullet just like the rest of us. That's why many people frequent this web site in the first place, I think. There's an endless supply of interesting stuff here, just waiting to be absorbed.

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Now that I'm retired I don't 'do it' as often as in the past.

Living in France helps as we have access to many places in Europe by car so we can take short visits to sample the food & culture. The travel cost of getting somewhere are a big barrier for most of us. Thus, if we're lucky these days we only get to the states or South Africa or Australia once a year. Still not bad.

When working I was lucky enough to travel a lot and to have a fairly generous expense account. Thus most restaurants were within financial reach especially if I topped up the company's allowance. Also, much of the time I was traveling Europe where my colleagues knew that I was a foodie & delighted in showing off the local, cuisine.

So, I was able to 'do it' out of sheer good luck. No planning on my part the career just evolved. I don't know about others, but I suspect that my story isn't all that unique.

Try to get a job in Export Sales or Management is my advice if you want to both travel and eat well.

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Much of the barrier to travel for many people is actually getting the time off from work. If, as Dave mentioned, you have a job that involves travel, that helps a lot. I run my own business and can do nearly everything remotely, so I often go on month long trips and get to try a lot more restaurants, see a lot more things for the cost of my flight.

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I suspect that most of the people you wonder about had much less disposable income when they were 25. I certainly did.

Ditto. When I was 25, I was in Medical School and lucky if I went anywhere or ate anything outside of the neighborhood where I went to school. It didn't get much better when I did my residency, but over the last 15 years, I have had (some) means and motive. Now with 1 son in college and another about to start, my discretionary budget is severely reduced. I am leveraging my available time and have started a secondary business centered around my blog and food writing and photography with the hope of offsetting expenses and eventually making a profit. I don't know if the latter will ever come to pass, especially in this economy, but I am trying my best.

My regular work can be very intense when I am there, but leaves me with significant time to unwind which I have applied to this area since I joined eGullet in 2003 when it was still just eGullet.com.

John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."

- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

Docsconz - Musings on Food and Life

Slow Food Saratoga Region - Co-Founder

Twitter - @docsconz

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You know thanks for asking this, I have often wondered and never had the guts to ask. With that said, I don't make much money at all, most of my disposable income is spent on food and food books, cooking equipment, etc. I don't get to travel much, I am a shameless arm chair traveler. I do however hope to start my own business so I can do these things. But for now I am savoring what I can and learning alot from the wonderful people that post here.

"I eat fat back, because bacon is too lean"

-overheard from a 105 year old man

"The only time to eat diet food is while waiting for the steak to cook" - Julia Child

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Great post nargi. I've often wondered how some people here can do what they do and I figured it comes down to priorities and having a decent income.

We have a very good household income but we try hard to balance savings and investment, fixing things in our home, and eating. Thus, our home cooking and restaurant forays are neither as extravagant nor as frequent as some of the great posters on eGullet. We have occasional meals at "expensive" places (Citronelle, 2941 here in DC) but for the most part, we eat like "normal" people although we do have a penchant for tenderloin.

To each their own and I'm very happy to have eGullet as a fantastic resource. Cheers to Fat Guy and the members of the society.

Edited by CDRFloppingham (log)
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One can also save money for eating well by being economical on the other aspects of the trip. When we travel to Europe, we opt to go during the off-season when airfare and lodging are relatively inexpensive and we typically rent an apartment at a fraction of the cost of an average hotel. For example, next March, we will be renting an apartment for a week in a village an hour from Granada for just over $500. We will eat dinners in the apartment some of the time, particularly when we can take advantage of a nearby village's market day, and that leaves additional room in the budget for eating out at more expensive places if we choose to do so.

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Is really is all about priorities, as many have said. I spend a large percentage of my income on food and travel, and have comparatively little in my retirement fund because of it. But I often think of my parents--they had always talked about travelling here and there, but they never did it while they were working. Then my father retired, and my mother was about to retire, so they planned their first trip to Cuba. About two months before their trip, my father died of a ruptured aneurysm. He never got to go to those place they dreamed about, and my mother never got to share those experiences with him.

I've made the decision to do the things I really want to do while I can, and most of those things involve food and travel. Like Meanderer, when I travel I save on transportation and lodgings so I can spend more on food. The last time I went to Tokyo (I live near Osaka), I took the night bus (return fare cost less than a 1-way shinkansen ticket), and stayed at a cheap hotel in Shinjuku. Was it the most comfortable or luxurious travel experience? No, but I got to eat at a couple of very good restaurants, and took home a lot of really delicious sweets because of it!

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There are also ways to maximize your exposure to good food while minimizing expenses.

I am hoping, for example, to take a friend and his wife out for a 50th birthday celebration at Per Se (anyone with reservation tips, please PM!). This won't be a cheap date by any stretch, but if I can get a lunch reservation instead of dinner, that saves $100 a head. And, since they're in recovery and I'll be restrained in their presence, there will be significant savings on wine.

And today I'm heading out to one of the better restaurants in town (Vidalia, doc) and rather than eating the $80 dinner tasting menu and ordering an $80 bottle of wine, I'll be having the $19.95 lunch special and maybe a single glass of something. Not the same experience as the full blowout, but a chance to experience a good restaurant nonetheless.

I think low-rent dining takes more planning and less drinking - and also the discipline to make yourself a hot dog and tater tots on that night you don't feel like cooking, rather than blowing $50 on mediocre delivery Thai -- than fits my MO, but it can be done.

I'm on the pavement

Thinking about the government.

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I'm going to Napa next week for the first time, but instead of splurging on The French Laundry, we're going to take advantage of all of the other great food out there. Quite frankly, we couldn't justify the bang for the buck -- I don't think we would get enough out of it. My wife can barely finish a full meal, as it is :)

And we can make the trip affordable by:

flying on Saturdays

staying with friends in SF for two days

hotels are giving huge discounts right now (25%)

going in the offseason (I think May is THE perfect time to travel -- not overcrowded, weather is "good enough", prices aren't overinflated)

Plus, we're DINKs, and not in the food industry. Enjoying it while we can.

My European adventures came while I lived in Spain during grad school, and a two-week honeymoon. We certainly splurged, then! But even then, I didn't need to go to the "best" restaurants, because the food itself was so new and interesting that any treatment was interesting enough. I loved eating random tapas versus hitting any of the "name" restaurants in San Sebastian, for example. For me, it has become about the ingredients; I salivate when I think of Spanish hams or cheeses or Brittany lobsters.

Would I love to go to El Bulli? Sure, but I would be just as happy discovering fideu or walking through a grocery store finding new things.

Last year, we went on a Greek-Italian cruise. Why? Because we could pay for it in dollars. HUGE savings. Plus, we got to try very different foods -- the best food that I had was handmade cavatappi in Bari, Italy, along with a fantastic antipasti bar.

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My wife and I find that we prefer good food done well -- too many times we find that restaurants that are too quirky just fail to live up to the hype. So...to respond to your question...we don't bother with the El Bullis and Fat Ducks of the world. There's plenty of good food out there.

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Awesome. I'm glad everyone's responding and giving real information. I really appreciate it. I was sort of wary when I posted this, it would be perceived negatively, but it hasn't received that sort of response at all, so thank to everyone contributing.

That said, if anyone's ever in San Diego and wants a good meal, let me know. French Laundry it is not, but you won't be disappointed.

I've never eaten a Hot Pocket and thought "I'm glad I ate that."

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That said, if anyone's ever in San Diego and wants a good meal, let me know. French Laundry it is not, but you won't be disappointed.

Where? :)

"You dont know everything in the world! You just know how to read!" -an ah-hah! moment for 6-yr old Miss O.

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Awesome. I'm glad everyone's responding and giving real information. I really appreciate it. I was sort of wary when I posted this, it would be perceived negatively, but it hasn't received that sort of response at all, so thank to everyone contributing.

That said, if anyone's ever in San Diego and wants a good meal, let me know. French Laundry it is not, but you won't be disappointed.

I'm hitting Rubio's for a fish taco the first day I land in SF :)

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First of all, we don't have kids.

Secondly, we actually don't eat out that often in the States.

I know, we're French snobs.

But, Mr. Tarte Tatin actually cooks better than a lot of places here in Philly.

So, we splurge when we go away (mainly to France).

And, we fly off season or when we find a good deal.

Just two months ago, in March, our flight from Philly to Paris was $298 round trip, plus tax.

So, priority wise, we spend the rest on food.

Philly Francophiles

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The people I know who have modest incomes but go big ticket once in a while are good at saving that extra $20-50 a week so at the end of of the year they can afford it without incurring any debt. Now that I think about it, although we earn more than the average person, that's how my wife surprised me with a week in Napa for my 50th birthday.

“Watermelon - it’s a good fruit. You eat, you drink, you wash your face.”

Italian tenor Enrico Caruso (1873-1921)

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Some of the more "over the top dining" is attributable to the expatriate crowd. I think the expatriates that you find lurking about here on eGullet and the other sites are a more nomadic group than the "home to the house every year" crowd that also exists abroad. (Nothing against them, that's their priority.) This group - as Prasantrin (Rona) has mentioned - isn't as concerned with their 401K's and mortgages as are people permanently residing somewhere.

I wouldn't quite say it's "life for the moment", but......

The food people I've met overseas (and whose company I enjoy very much) have all decided that they're going to squeeze every drop they can from their time on far shores. And the price is going to be a secondary issue (as much as it can be - everyone does have limits).

Living now on a slightly better shoe-string (stop choking, Rona!) for myself I just look at my travel and dining binges as a balance to my work. I don't spend money on football tickets, hockey, cable television, or expensive hobbies (okay, there is the movie business thing). And when I don't travel, I play here in my kitchen, trying out the things I've seen elsewhere. I'm happy, the family's happy.

There, that seems reasonably incoherent.

:smile:

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