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Pasta/Tomato/Red Sauce with Dried Herbs and Spices


Nargi

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Well, since you all rave so much about it, and I happen to trust ya'all, I am going to try that butter tomato concoction even though it does actually sound like culinary blasphemy!

In any event, why can't you just make your basic tomato sauce and freeze portions of it. Doctor it up anyway you please when you take it out?

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Well, since you all rave so much about it, and I happen to trust ya'all,  I am going to try that butter tomato concoction even though it does actually sound like culinary blasphemy!

This is actually on the menu tomorrow night. I had made a batch of ricotta gnocchi earlier this week. The remaining dough will be for tomorrow evening's dinner.

Pix to come.

PS. I don't measure when I cook. :raz:

PPS. Edited to add a pic of some gnocchi I made last year. If you can forgive the tired-looking chopped parsley, the sauce is straight out of the recipe Sam quoted above.

gallery_1890_1967_109079.jpg

Edited by SobaAddict70 (log)
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For what it's worth, I tend to use project's method/list of ingredients when making my pasta/red sauce (with or without meat). I usually have everything on that list in my pantry (except for the Chianti; must get a not-too-expensive bottle of that on my limited budget). I especially appreciate how you cook the onions to create the fond--never did that before, but I will.

I'd never heard of slkinsey's simple and delicious sounding recipe, and I happen to have all THREE of those ingredients on hand as well. Decisions, decisions, whatever shall I do? :biggrin: Both? What really sent that one over the top is the ability to add a couple more ingredients and make homemade cream of tomato soup.

Thanks to you both. :smile:

Not today though. Today it's a big ol' pot of chicken-vegetable-barley-garlic-lemon-saffron soup!

Inside me there is a thin woman screaming to get out, but I can usually keep the Bitch quiet: with CHOCOLATE!!!

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My personal belief is that American-made tomato sauces for pasta (which is to say, not a sauce where the tomato plays an equal role with other ingredients such as bucatini all'amatriciana) typically suffer because (i) they have an overabundance of herbs, frequently dried; (ii) there is too much garlic; (iii) they are overwrought, with far too many ingredients; or (iv) all of the above.

The very most that might be needed for the most elaborate basic tomato sauce would be a one or two lightly crushed cloves of garlic, a medium onion, a stalk of celery, perhaps a touch of carrot for sweetness and a few branches of thyme. Once you go beyond that and start throwing in the dried basil and oregano and celery seed and rosemary and fennel and mushrooms and red wine and sausage and peppers and olives and sun dried tomato and etc, etc, etc. . . . To my taste, it just becomes muddled and not all that good.

--

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Okay, so what would be wrong with including whole chopped tomatoes (seeds and all)?

Starkman

Marcella mentions that you can make this sauce with fresh tomatoes. The problem with that scenario is that I can think of a few hundred other things to do with fresh toms [in season] other than a cooked sauce.

But you can make this sauce with fresh or canned. I usually use Pomi crushed tomatoes. It's fine. It's a really forgiving sauce -- proportions are almost irrelevant. Once you make it, you'll be sorry you didn't make more.

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That would be correct, it is basically her method. I had never heard of the woman until a few months ago when I got the urge to start making my own sauce and jumped on here and the internet for some references. Turns out she basically invented Italian cooking (hyperbole, of course). Her recipe specifically calls for San Marzano tomatoes, which in her opinion are the best for this sauce.

I was labouring under similar misconceptions until I picked up a copy of one of Marcella Hazan's books in a used book store and cooking through it. I haven't tried butter with tomatoes yet, but I made her version with tomatoes and olive oil only the day after I broke my arm - that's how easy it was. But you really do need to have excellent tomatoes and good olive oil. Something you really like the taste of, since she calls for a third cup of it.

But butter makes everything better, so I think I'll be making the butter version tonight to see for myself.

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(1) I wouldn't argue with either Kinsey or Hazan!

(2) I'm not an expert, just trying to learn from experts! E.g., I learned about fond for my sauce from Kinsey!

(3) Even with my amateur understanding, I wouldn't recommend my sauce for a dish that was nearly all just pasta and sauce. In my two uses, the sauce is trying to stand up to sauteed beef with a lot of flavor, Mozzarella cheese, and Pecorino Romano cheese or sauteed chicken and a lot of mushrooms, green peppers, and Pecorino Romano cheese. I am hoping to use the sauce with some rolled 'Braciola' or some such.

(4) Mostly in the dishes I'm using the sauce in, I'm trying for a LOT of flavor, e.g., to stand up to an acidic Chianti, and that's only because I don't have a case of good Barolo!

My guess would be that the Kinsey-Hazan sauce would go well with a well made ricotta cheese ravioli and, then, maybe with a white wine. Is this roughly correct?

What would be the right food and wine to go with

R. Strauss's 'Ein Heldenleben'?

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(3) Even with my amateur understanding, I wouldn't recommend my sauce for a dish that was nearly all just pasta and sauce.  In my two uses, the sauce is trying to stand up to sauteed beef with a lot of flavor, Mozzarella cheese, and Pecorino Romano cheese or sauteed chicken and a lot of mushrooms, green peppers, and Pecorino Romano cheese.  I am hoping to use the sauce with some rolled 'Braciola' or some such.

(4) Mostly in the dishes I'm using the sauce in, I'm trying for a LOT of flavor, e.g., to stand up to an acidic Chianti, and that's only because I don't have a case of good Barolo!

My guess would be that the Kinsey-Hazan sauce would go well with a well made ricotta cheese ravioli and, then, maybe with a white wine.  Is this roughly correct?

I too love this Hazan sauce, but I would agree with your statement above that I find it to be a subtle sauce best used on fairly mild dishes where its flavor will shine through. I don't think it would stand up well to lots of sauteed beef, romano cheese, or tons of peppers and mushrooms, etc. If you used it for it braciola, it would still probably taste good in the end, but the beef cooking in it would result in a totally different sauce.

Edited by Emily_R (log)
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Well, since you all rave so much about it, and I happen to trust ya'all,  I am going to try that butter tomato concoction even though it does actually sound like culinary blasphemy!

In any event, why can't you just make your basic tomato sauce and freeze portions of it. Doctor it up anyway you please when you take it out?

I do that quite a bit, but I'm a big fat Italian guy, so I go through it pretty quickly and was basically looking for something make when I didn't have a lot of food in the house (or money to buy food).

I've never eaten a Hot Pocket and thought "I'm glad I ate that."

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My personal belief is that American-made tomato sauces for pasta (which is to say, not a sauce where the tomato plays an equal role with other ingredients such as bucatini all'amatriciana) typically suffer because... there is too much garlic;

There can never be too much garlic, sir. ::bites into a head of garlic, Iron Chef Chairman-style::

I've never eaten a Hot Pocket and thought "I'm glad I ate that."

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My personal belief is that American-made tomato sauces for pasta (which is to say, not a sauce where the tomato plays an equal role with other ingredients such as bucatini all'amatriciana) typically suffer because... there is too much garlic;

There can never be too much garlic, sir. ::bites into a head of garlic, Iron Chef Chairman-style::

I used to think that too, until I went to see Tony and Tina's wedding 15 years ago! Now I don't even chop garlic into sauces. I leave them whole and take them out.

QUOTE(ambra @ May 14 2009, 12:05 PM)

Well, since you all rave so much about it, and I happen to trust ya'all,  I am going to try that butter tomato concoction even though it does actually sound like culinary blasphemy!

In any event, why can't you just make your basic tomato sauce and freeze portions of it. Doctor it up anyway you please when you take it out?

I do that quite a bit, but I'm a big fat Italian guy, so I go through it pretty quickly and was basically looking for something make when I didn't have a lot of food in the house (or money to buy food).

Well, quick sauces depend on how you stock your fridge/pantry, no?

I always have canned beans (white, borlotti and Ceci), canned tuna, olives, capers, garlic, onions, anchovies, canned tomatoes, bacon, eggs and olive oil among others on hand.

Do you know how many (cheap) recipes come out of that? Just to start:

Pasta with Garlic and Oil

Pasta with Garlic, Oil and Anchovies

Pasta with Tuna Garlic, Capers and Olives

Pasta with Tuna and Garlic

Pasta with Bacon and Eggs otherwise known as Carbonara (if you keep parmigiano on hand.)

Pasta with Fagioli (ok better with real fagiolis but canned is fine in a hurry or a budget.) and with or without tomatoes. With our without Pancetta

Pasta All'Aglione. Ok recipe is really Pici all'Aglione, but I guess any pasta could work. Although the Pici do give it that creamy texture....

I know what you are going to say, this thread was about tomato sauce. So I will give you the recipe for All'Aglione which is:

Brown garlic in olive oil, add tomatoes (pelati- best you can get as SLKinsey said) and salt and cook til done and tomatoes break down on their own. It's usually done in the time it takes the pasta to boil. Recipe is usually one piece of garlic per person but since your one person and you've opened a whole can of pelati you should probably use a minimum of 4 up to 6 depending on size and taste.. I know, not really for Garlic lovers and really intended for Pici, but still yummy. Can also be done with Passata. Sugar if needed. Red Pepper if desired.

Edited cuz I forgot something.

Edited by ambra (log)
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My best advice:  Forget all the herbs and spices and multi-stage preparation.  You want a brilliant tomato sauce that is inexpensive and mind-blowingly delicious?  Get a can of high-quality tomatoes, an onion, and a nice big lump of butter.  Skin the onion and cut it in half.  Crush or mill the tomatoes to whatever consistency you would like.  Put the onion, butter, tomato and some salt into a cold saucepan.  Turn the heat on low.  Allow the sauce to come up to a gentle simmer over around 20 minutes, by which time the butter will emulsify into the sauce and the onion will have contributed its flavor.  Discard the onion and use the sweet, tomatoey sauce.  Add a little crushed red pepper or some minced fresh parsley off the heat, if you like.  But nothing further is necessary.

Question. Is there a reason to discard the onion? I usually mince the onion and saute in the butter before adding the tomatoes. Is the sauce better with the onion whole and discarded?

Thanks

Rhonda

Edited by PopsicleToze (log)
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The flavor is different if you saute the onions (which also destroys the effect of starting everything together cold) Try them side-by-side sometime. When you just put in a whole onion, it contributes a very subtle but discernable flavor and perhaps a touch of sweetness to the sauce, but the sauce remains fundamentally light and tomato-flavored.

You discard the onion because, after it has contributed its flavor to the sauce, it is mushy and flavorless.

Adding whole aromatic vegetables to tomato sauce which are later discarded after having contributed their flavor is a fairly common Italian technique. When my mother lived in Rome after the War, their family cook used to simmer tomato sauce with a whole stalk of celery that was discarded at the end. And, of course, it is quite common to simmer the sauce with a few whole cloves of garlic that are either discarded or not intended to be eaten.

--

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The butter based sauce works very well with "fresh" tomatoes. Whenever we slice up tomatoes for something and have the 'heels' left over for some reason, they go in the freezer til I need a little sauce for one, and then I get the pleasure.

Gonna have to try buying canned tomatoes and try it that way.

"You dont know everything in the world! You just know how to read!" -an ah-hah! moment for 6-yr old Miss O.

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I have long shared the goal Nargi described here!

I learned about Samuel Lloyd Kinsey's tomato sauce only here

so have yet to try it!

Here is what I do toward the goal Nargi described:

Ah yes, the classic "simple" project sauce. A mere 14 ingredient, nine step , three and a half hours preparation-and-cooking tomato sauce. :wink:

Sam - I just about fell out of my chair!

And, Project, I must say that you put the "detailed" in "detailed recipe"! As long as I've been kickin' around here, your posts have never excluded any pertinent information.

So, Sam - I'm a big fan of Pomi - would you recommend any other particular brands?

The pure simplicity of this sauce is something that I'm thinking Pino Luongo (sp?) would get right behind, being of the "no more than 10 minutes for marinara" school. (except for the 20 minute cook time, of course...)

Best,

Steve

"Tell your friends all around the world, ain't no companion like a blue - eyed merle" Robert Plant

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Reading through this thread, I thought this is it: the uber tomato sauce.

Prior to cooking anything, I always do a mental combination of flavours. Let me see: tomato, sweet and acidic; onion, some subtle bite adding a dimension but not necessarily sweet as it wouldn't have time to change in this way. Salt, which is a flavour intensifier. Butter to give mouth feel and depth as well as a gloss on the sauce.

So far so good, but where are the extra flavour notes: the heat from a bit of chili, the sweetness and texture of carrots, the bite of celery, the roundess and olfaction of herbs? These are elements of a tomato based sauce with complexity.

But we have a recipe from the temple of Hazan. So I decided to try it.

Well, the flavour matched exactly what I thought it would be.

To venture an opinion, however, it is pretty bland. Perhaps the code word for this should be subtle and I'm sure I'll come under fire for this but it was not to my taste.

To save it slightly after the recommended twenty minute cooking period, I fired the heat up and worked to caremalise the sauce. This worked to some extent and added an additional layer of sweetness but still it was not what I'd consider to be a "wow" sauce.

It is a pity that the strong advocacy of this sauce so early in this topic has almost shut the thread down.

I'd really like to see what others have to offer. Hang in there project, yours is the next one I'm going to try,

Please let me and others know about what moves you in a pasta sauce. It may not fit into the canon of sublimely simple recipes. However, as someone who sees sense in Heston Blumenthal's introduction of ingredients at different times during the cooking process to add novel flavour notes, I'm not sure that this will be a bad thing.

Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"The Internet is full of false information." Plato
My eG Foodblog

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Reading through this thread, I thought this is it: the uber tomato sauce.

Prior to cooking anything, I always do a mental combination of flavours. Let me see: tomato, sweet and acidic; onion, some subtle bite adding a dimension but not necessarily sweet as it wouldn't have time to change in this way. Salt, which is a flavour intensifier. Butter to give mouth feel and depth as well as a gloss on the sauce.

So far so good, but where are the extra flavour notes: the heat from a bit of chili, the sweetness and texture of carrots, the bite of celery, the roundess and olfaction of herbs? These are elements of a tomato based sauce with complexity.

But we have a recipe from the temple of Hazan. So I decided to try it.

Well, the flavour matched exactly what I thought it would be.

To venture an opinion, however, it is pretty bland. Perhaps the code word for this should be subtle and I'm sure I'll come under fire for this but it was not to my taste.

To save it slightly after the recommended twenty minute cooking period, I fired the heat up and worked to caremalise the sauce. This worked to some extent and added an additional layer of sweetness but still it was not what I'd consider to be a "wow" sauce.

It is a pity that the strong advocacy of this sauce so early in this topic has almost shut the thread down.

I'd really like to see what others have to offer. Hang in there project, yours is the next one I'm going to try,

Please let me and others know about what moves you in a pasta sauce. It may not fit into the canon of sublimely simple recipes. However, as someone who sees sense in Heston Blumenthal's introduction of ingredients at different times during the cooking process to add novel flavour notes, I'm not sure that this will be a bad thing.

My preferred method is to cook it on a low heat setting, almost to the point of it being shut off, preferably slightly covered and to stir it as infrequently as possible. I also have it on simmer for about, oh, say 40 to 45 minutes.

I used one box of Pomi chopped last night. No salt until the end.

It could be that the flavor profile was different than your version. My feeling is that 20 minutes is too short.

Sam doesn't give proportions. I believe the recipe calls for 5 T. butter, not an insignificant amount. I used a mix of Lurpak and Ronnybrook, mostly because that's what I had on hand.

Edited by SobaAddict70 (log)
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It is a pity that the strong advocacy of this sauce so early in this topic has almost shut the thread down.

I'd really like to see what others have to offer. Hang in there project, yours is the next one I'm going to try,

I agree for the most part.

I was kind of looking for ideas from all over.

I will admit, though, that even being Italian (well, Sicilian), I never really thought about butter in a tomato sauce and it is definitely fantastic (I added some butter to my go-to sauce that was already made, and paired with some fresh pasta, it was definitely new and delicious.

I've never eaten a Hot Pocket and thought "I'm glad I ate that."

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For me, the less there is in the sauce, the better.

Marcella aside, I usually make an olive oil-based sauce. Figure 1/2 a small onion, a clove or two of garlic, a handful of chopped parsley, a pinch of salt, some olive oil and a can of high-quality tomatoes or preferably fresh. Cook the onion, garlic and parsley gently over low to medium-low heat, until onion becomes translucent, add the tomatoes and cover. Simmer for roughly an hour or until sauce is thick, stirring occasionally. Add salt and pepper to taste at the end. Use as needed.

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