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Light, Airy Bread


beauregard
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OK, I've been trying for months, obviously I'm using the wrong recipes :huh:

My breads come out tasty but heavy, dense, solid, and, when fully baked, with the bottom crust hard as a rock -- they usually look like this:

Mine1.JPG

Here's what the light, airy, crunchy-but-soft crust ciabatta from my local bakery (Silver Moon in NYC) looks like (and it tastes as good as it looks):

Ciabattabestemail.JPG

Can someone point me to a recipe for a light ciabatta?

And are there rules of thumb for producing light breads?

Thanks!

~ beau

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I don't know if the top loaf is supposed to be a ciabatta, but if it is, it's an odd shape. Ciabatta dough is very wet, almost a batter, which helps to give the very airy crumb structure.

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It is usually because you didn't have enough water in the dough. Is your loaf made with whole wheat flour? (Or did you bake it extra long because you were waiting for it to rise more?)

If you did use some whole wheat flour, you need to add extra water to the recipe. But in any case, it looks like you just need to add more water.

Eileen

Eileen Talanian

HowThe Cookie Crumbles.com

HomemadeGourmetMarshmallows.com

As for butter versus margarine, I trust cows more than chemists. ~Joan Gussow

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Past tricks I've used to make bricks are:

1. Too low hydration (not enough water)

2. Insufficient proofing (in some cases producing tough crusts from it taking too long for heat to penetrate the underproofed brick)

3. Overproofing (collapsing of dough structure when moved to oven)

4. Unnecessary slashing or handling (collapsing of dough structure)

There could also be insufficient yeast or underproofing relative to a small amount of yeast used. A recipe would help people analyze your problems more, as well as details such as proof time, shaping method and oven temps (are they accurate?).

Baker of "impaired" cakes...
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Thanks Everybody!

>> Overproofing (collapsing of dough structure when moved to oven) <<

Well, collapsing certainly has been a problem, tho' I'm surprised to hear that overproofing could be the problem, if I understand properly what proofing is. The source I've used defines 'proofing' as the rising of the dough, and whether I let it rise 12 hours or 20 hours, I still have the collapsing problem.

Perhaps you're referring to proofing the yeast. Most of the recipes I've seen say to proof the yeast with water and a little flour for 5 minutes, but I've been proofing for 15 minutes because the yeast obviously (by the bubbles) becomes more active that way. Is that too long?

>> Too low hydration (not enough water) <<

Well, maybe so. I can see the bakers at my local bakery handling the dough for the ciabatta (they stand next to the front window), and I've been impressed by the fact that the dough is so thoroughly dry that they can handle it without the slighted stickiness either to their hands or any surface it touches, so I've been trying to reduce the amount of water. So now I'll try adding more water.

Sorry I can't tell you which ciabatta recipes I've failed with, I tried so many, but the upper photo isn't ciabatta, it's my heavy, dense, teeth-breaking-crusted but delicious loaf of white & whole wheat flour. :huh:

~ beau

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>> Overproofing (collapsing of dough structure when moved to oven) <<

Well, collapsing certainly has been a problem, tho' I'm surprised to hear that overproofing could be the problem, if I understand properly what proofing is. The source I've used defines 'proofing' as the rising of the dough, and whether I let it rise 12 hours or 20 hours, I still have the collapsing problem.

Perhaps you're referring to proofing the yeast. Most of the recipes I've seen say to proof the yeast with water and a little flour for 5 minutes, but I've been proofing for 15 minutes because the yeast obviously (by the bubbles) becomes more active that way. Is that too long?

By overproofing I am specifically referring to the final proof after shaping the bread. You can overproof to the point where slashing or moving the bread to the oven causes the structure of the bread to noticeably collapse.

If your yeast is fresh and active, there is absolutely no reason to proof for even a few minutes, much less 15 minutes. I never do it anymore. If using instant yeast, whisk the yeast into the flour. If using active dry yeast, sprinkle the yeast on some of the water (warm), and just wait long enough until you can stir/whisk and dissolve the yeast. Then go ahead and start mixing.

If you aren't already, I strongly recommend using weights for consistent results.

Regarding the tough crust, it wouldn't hurt to use a probe thermometer, again for consistent results and to make sure you're not overbaking the bread. I don't usually bake ciabatta, but 200 degrees should be about good.

Baker of "impaired" cakes...
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The source I've used defines 'proofing' as the rising of the dough, and whether I let it rise 12 hours or 20 hours, I still have the collapsing problem

Are you proofing in a refrigerator? 12 hours seems awfully long for yeast risen dough, unless you are retarding it in the fridge.

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1) use instant yeast, and don't "proof" the yeast in water. No need to do so. Get better bread books if all of your recipes call for proofing the yeast. Suggestions for good bread books: anything by Peter Reinhart, Daniel Leader, or the King Arthur Flour cookbooks (about more than bread, but with a good section on simple yeast baking).

2)as previous posters have said, heavy bread is most often due to lack of hydration. Get a scale, weigh your ingredients, and find a cookbook with recipes written in weight. Flour is difficult to measure consistently by volume--once you start weighing it, you'll never go back.

3)keep baking. Yeast bread is literally alive, and it won't always behave consistently. It takes some practice to get a real feel for it. Pick a particular kind of loaf and master it before moving on to another one.

Your loaf in the photo appears to be over-risen. A loaf should expand 10-20% once it hits the hot oven (called oven spring)....the deeply folded wrinkles indicate that your bread was already falling before the oven's heat could cause any additional expansion. Forget all of the recipe instructions on timed rising: you need to observe the loaf and decide when it is ready to bake. Air temps in home kitchens vary widely, and what rises in 90 minutes in my kitchen might take 2 hours in your kitchen. Learn to poke the loaf gently and observe the bounce-back: you want the indentation from your finger to slowly and gently refill. With practice, you will learn to look at the loaf and tell by appearance (surface tension, overall size, loftiness)....that's why you should make the same loaf a few times before moving on.

Edited by HungryC (log)
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A lot of good suggestions here.

I'd add that a good book to start with might be one of Dan Lepard's, and I wish I'd had it when I started baking bread. I started with Reinhart and Leader and Silverton and then Hamelman, and I suspect I would have had better luck right off the bat had I'd been able to work with one of Dan's books.

For me, although it's difficult to get a whole lot of information from one pic of an uncut loaf, your photo indicates maybe not an over-risen loaf, but a loaf that's probably never developed fully because of your experimentation with removing water from the dough. And though I couldn't say for absolute certainty, the folds to me indicate a far too heavy, dry dough.

The folks you see through the window of the bakery handling doughs easily probably aren't handling them easily simply because the doughs aren't wet or that they are very dry doughs, but because the bakers have experience handling all sorts of doughs easily, even very wet doughs. There are ways of doing that which don't require a baker to simply add flour to the dough itself. And you may also be seeing the doughs in a more or less finished stage, which might make them easier to handle.

I'd also second the suggestion that you probably don't need to proof your yeast. If you're using it fairly soon after you've purchased it, then it should be fine, and I wouldn't bother proofing it myself. It's one thing if you pull a packet of yeast off your shelf that's been sitting there for a very long time, but if you know you've purchased it recently, it's probably fine. Keep it in a jar in the refrigerator and it'll last even longer.

The Village Bakery

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I work in an artisan bakery, and while we don't make ciabata, we do have some high hydration doughs. We never use flour when pulling from the mixer and putting into tubs for bulk fermentation. I do moisten my hands a little, though. It would be easy for anyone watching to be mislead as to the hydration rate. We do use flour when dividing and shaping, though.

As others have stated, you have some sources that are giving you bad info. There's no need to proof instant yeast. If your sources say to proof yeast, it worries me what else they are telling you that is wrong. The books that say to do so probably say to add sugar to the proofing yeast and water. If so, ditch the sugar, unless you are making a sweet bread.

Definitely get a scale and get acquainted with baker's percentages. Once you start doing that you will take your bread making to a whole new level. Plus it is a lot easier to get feedback if you say you are making bread with a 65% or 70% hydration rate or whatever it is.

My guess as to your problems are:

1) not enough water

2) too much kneading

3) too much proofing the shaped loaves

When you are getting started, pick a simple recipe with just flour, water, yeast and salt. Use a scale and document your weights and your procedure. If you don't get the results you want, change one variable at a time till you get it where you want it. Keep making it over and over again. Once you get consistent results, then you can start playing with other recipes or modified procedures.

Edited by Rich In Bunly Goodness (log)
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When I use yeast it's either fresh or Allison's Active Dried yeast which does need proofing - it may be that the recipes you're looking at assume you're using this kind of thing rather than the instant yeasts that don't.

I can't add much advice apart from keep going. I've been baking all my own bread for a year and a half now after getting the Dan Lepard book - The Handmade Loaf - which is excellent but my first attempts were pretty disastrous. Your's looks lovely compared to some of the stuff I used to produce. The dough just seemed too wet and I couldn't handle it, it stuck to the proofing cloths, loaves came out flat and deformed...... They did taste great so I carried on and eventually, without changing the recipe I just learned how to handle it. Now I only make weird shaped or flat loaves if I let them over-proof (because I forget I'm going out or something) or if my aim is a bit off when I slide it onto the baking stone!

I have found the crust gets too hard if I bake at too high a temperature for too long. (And with rye breads I've found it best to bake it uncovered for about 15mins and then cover with tin foil for the rest of the time - my rye breads take ages to bake and they do go rock hard if I don't do this).

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I have found the crust gets too hard if I bake at too high a temperature for too long. (And with rye breads I've found it best to bake it uncovered for about 15mins and then cover with tin foil for the rest of the time - my rye breads take ages to bake and they do go rock hard if I don't do this).

This is good advice and something I do with my sourdough loaves. (My kids are still young and struggle with a substantial crust.) I bake at a high temperature (425 degrees) until the crust achieves the desired color, usually about 17 minutes, then I rotate the loaves and cover with foil. In my case, I also lower the temperature although that may not be necessary.

Although I would say that it shouldn't be necessary for ciabatta if you get the proofing right.

Baker of "impaired" cakes...
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My experience has been that the thickness/hardness of the crust has a lot to do with how much steam you introduce at the beginning of the baking. My current oven set up with a baking stone does not allow for good circulation of steam from a pan of ice cubes, and I've found my crusts to be thinner than before.

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Sound advice from Devlin, as so often. Get Dan Lepard's 'Handmade' when you are ready to explore the world of bread possibilities.

But I think the best advice here is from Bunly Goodness

When you are getting started, pick a simple recipe with just flour, water, yeast and salt. Use a scale and document your weights and your procedure. If you don't get the results you want, change one variable at a time till you get it where you want it. Keep making it over and over again. Once you get consistent results, then you can start playing with other recipes or modified procedures.

But I'd stress starting with white ('bread') flour - preferably not brominated - and plain 'instant' yeast (by which I mean not a 'bread machine' cocktail with improvers and additives). Instants will have a trace of stearate (to promote its rehydration), and Vitamin C (aka Ascorbic Acid or Ascorbate) can only do good, not harm - avoid yeasts with other additives.

"Fresh" yeast is just a factory product with a VERY short shelf life.

Instant is better - particularly for newbie domestic bakers.

Note how Bunly Goodness says "use a scale". Weigh the flour and the water. Its easy, its precise, and that puts you in control. Its important.

And know what you did. So you can tweak it in particular ways next time. You simply cannot do that if you don't know what it was that you did last time.

Mix the instant yeast, dry, with the dry flour.

Use water that is at blood heat - test it like a baby's bath. I mean it! Not cold, not hot, not even 'warm' - you want a totally 'neutral' temperature.

And don't put the dough anywhere fancy to rise.

A high shelf in a warm room is just fine.

Yeast really doesn't like it too hot.

If its a bit cool, it'll just be a little slower -- but that ain't a problem! Even if its 'under-proofed', that's OK - its much better for the bread than over-proofing. So don't push for hotter faster rising.

And remember, the slower the rise, the better the bread's flavour.

Patience is an important ingredient in bread baking!

Get that lot working before you try anything else. Don't gad about with very different recipe concepts (ciabatta, whole wheat) - get a reliable basic loaf in your portfolio before exploring alternatives.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

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