French vs American beef

[Ptipois]

About the steak house -- the relais de l'entrecôte in rue de Marignan and la Maison de l'Aubrac are close enough to your hotel. They have decent steaks. But it still puzzles me why anyone would come to France for beef -- and why the French eat so much of theirs. That said, you'll get good steaks at Joséphine, La Rotonde, l'Ourcine, La Fonatine (closest to your hotel in that list) and, yes, le Boeuf couronné.

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You're definitely being unfair to French beef.

Come to think of it, you probably want to keep all to yourself our delicious, properly-aged, and grass-fed tasty Normande, Simmental, Aubrac, Salers, Bazas and Coutancie bovine delights... Not to mention the taureau de Nîmes which yields some of the tastiest côte I have ever tasted. Even charolais and limousin can be good when raised and prepared the right way.

[John Talbott]

About the steak house -- the relais de l'entrecôte in rue de Marignan and la Maison de l'Aubrac are close enough to your hotel. They have decent steaks. But it still puzzles me why anyone would come to France for beef -- and why the French eat so much of theirs. That said, you'll get good steaks at Joséphine, La Rotonde, l'Ourcine, La Fonatine (closest to your hotel in that list) and, yes, le Boeuf couronné.

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You're definitely being unfair to French beef.

Come to think of it, you probably want to keep all to yourself our delicious, properly-aged, and grass-fed tasty Normande, Simmental, Aubrac, Salers, Bazas and Coutancie bovine delights... Not to mention the taureau de Nîmes which yields some of the tastiest côte I have ever tasted. Even charolais and limousin can be good when raised and prepared the right way.

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I think this is an interesting topic that can exist on its own.

As my Mother used to say "you're both right."

When I first came to France in the 1950's, having grown up with a mid-west beef and potato father, I thought French beef was inferior and for years I avoided it, saying to myself or others, oh I can get better at home.

But more recently, esp with a cote (which I have to instruct a butcher in the States how to cut), I'm a French beef fan. Indeed, everytime a new Entrecote place opens, I got and my only problem is there aren't enough food opportunities each year and enough friends to share a cote with, to satisfy me.

[brescd01]

Enough about me, let's talk more about..me. Where are the top places I can go to try French meat (open in August)? Is French beef grain-fed or grass-fed? Is it marbled? In Spain (I was there in March), they serve grass-fed beef that is clearly un-marbled and they make a big deal about which animal the beef comes from, not the breed of cow (ox, steer, etc vs Holstein, Wagyu, etc). I certainly did not master the possiblities, but the meat definitely tasted different and I really liked it because after a steak dinner I did not have that sick feeling I get after an American steak, due to all the fat.

[pierre45]

French beef tastes different than American or even Argentinian beef.

The difference is due to the feed ,grass for French and Argentinian ,corn for American.The meat cut,cote for the French ,bife de lomo in Argentina and steaks in the US.Perhaps ,another factor is also the exersise of the animals.Open ,large spaces for Argentinian versus limited for the American.They all are flavorful in different ways.One could use adjectives such as sweeter,nuttier etc .due to fat content and terroir.In general the American meat is more tender.Personally I like them all and don't have any preferences.

[julot-les-pinceaux]

brescd01, French beef is generally grass-fed. It tends to be not so marbled. And I already responded your question about getting some in August.

Pti -- It's true that properly aged French beef can be wonderful, and totally worth a try. But where, oh where, does that ever happen in Paris? There's le Sévero on good days. There's that one cut at Le Gourmet des Ternes. There's the Tournedos at Le Pétrelle but we agreed not to tell anyone. And as far as butchers are concerned, there's Desnoyer and les Boucheries Nivernaises, and even there, you have to insist that you want to beef well aged.

So yes, there is good beef in France. There is good chicken and lamb in the US too. They're just uncommon.

Edited April 29, 2009 by julot-les-pinceaux (log)

[George Baugh]

About the steak house -- the relais de l'entrecôte in rue de Marignan and la Maison de l'Aubrac are close enough to your hotel. They have decent steaks. But it still puzzles me why anyone would come to France for beef -- and why the French eat so much of theirs. That said, you'll get good steaks at Joséphine, La Rotonde, l'Ourcine, La Fonatine (closest to your hotel in that list) and, yes, le Boeuf couronné.

←

You're definitely being unfair to French beef.

Come to think of it, you probably want to keep all to yourself our delicious, properly-aged, and grass-fed tasty Normande, Simmental, Aubrac, Salers, Bazas and Coutancie bovine delights... Not to mention the taureau de Nîmes which yields some of the tastiest côte I have ever tasted. Even charolais and limousin can be good when raised and prepared the right way.

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I second ptipois with the exception of Salers. I have only had Salers once, at the Lutetia. It was tasty certainly but incredibly tough. Is it supposed to be tough?

[sethd]

About the steak house -- the relais de l'entrecôte in rue de Marignan and la Maison de l'Aubrac are close enough to your hotel. They have decent steaks. But it still puzzles me why anyone would come to France for beef -- and why the French eat so much of theirs. That said, you'll get good steaks at Joséphine, La Rotonde, l'Ourcine, La Fonatine (closest to your hotel in that list) and, yes, le Boeuf couronné.

←

You're definitely being unfair to French beef.

Come to think of it, you probably want to keep all to yourself our delicious, properly-aged, and grass-fed tasty Normande, Simmental, Aubrac, Salers, Bazas and Coutancie bovine delights... Not to mention the taureau de Nîmes which yields some of the tastiest côte I have ever tasted. Even charolais and limousin can be good when raised and prepared the right way.

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I still remember a charolais I had at Restaurant Henry in Lyon in 1984. Still the best piece of meat I have ever had.

[John Talbott]

Enough about me, let's talk more about..me. Where are the top places I can go to try French meat (open in August)?

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No one, except me, seems to like Meating and disclosure: part of it is I love the old address. But Pudlo, etc do not say it's closed in August.

And I know this puts me in the company of the Philistines but one could go to one of the countless Entrecotes.

Or, one could call Hugo Desnoyer and ask who he delivers to in August.

[Ptipois]

brescd01, French beef is generally grass-fed. It tends to be not so marbled. And I already responded your question about getting some in August.

Pti -- It's true that properly aged French beef can be wonderful, and totally worth a try. But where, oh where, does that ever happen in Paris? There's le Sévero on good days. There's that one cut at Le Gourmet des Ternes. There's the Tournedos at Le Pétrelle but we agreed not to tell anyone. And as far as butchers are concerned, there's Desnoyer and les Boucheries Nivernaises, and even there, you have to insist that you want to beef well aged.

So yes, there is good beef in France. There is good chicken and lamb in the US too. They're just uncommon.

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I am surprised by your remark. It happens all the time in Paris. There are definitely a few good steak places and more than a few côtes de bœuf to be had all over the city. You are forgetting Christophe which isn't bad at all. And in every neighborhood there is at least one good butcher shop that will provide you with good, sometimes excellent beef.

I am beginning to think that the recent stress put on star food providers (like Desnoyer for meat and Thiébault for vegetables) is a bit misleading, and for all that star-system many can no longer see the woods for the tree — the many very decent neighborhood food shops. I also disagree about the fact that good beef, chicken and lamb are uncommon in France. They don't roam the street either but actually they never did. But they are definitely not uncommon. Besides, I never had to insist at the Boucheries Nivernaises that I wanted well-aged beef. All I ever did was point to one cut of meat and say: "I want this one please."

One thing French restaurants cannot seem to make right is, for some reason, roast beef.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Ptipois (log)

[Ptipois]

And I know this puts me in the company of the Philistines but one could go to one of the countless Entrecotes.

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Why Philistines? Le Relais de Venise on boulevard Pereire still serves what is, in my opinion, the very best steak-frites one can experience in Paris.

To answer brescd01's question, beef in France is always grass-fed. Sometimes it is marbled, sometimes not. It mostly depends on the breed, the age of the animal, and the raising methods.

There is a culinary culture of unmarbled beef as there is a culture of marbled beef. Unmarbled beef can be good. It should be aged for a shorter time than marbled beef. It generally has a strong taste that not everyone enjoys. Some bovine breeds do yield very tender and tasty, though unmarbled, meat. Camargue cattle seems to be a good example. Right now I am in Montpellier and enjoy, as often as I can, a small rib of Nîmes bull's meat, which has no marbling but is very tender and tasty. As a child in the Nice region I would sometimes be served grilled dark red steak, Italian-style, that had no marbling at all but was wonderfully flavorful and melting.

No meat is supposed to be tough but all meats can be tough when not properly butchered, aged and prepared. Salers is no exception. I suppose that takes care of the Salers question, but I should add that beef served in France is frequently not aged enough and therefore tough.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Ptipois (log)

[John Talbott]

One thing French restaurants cannot seem to make right is, for some reason, roast beef.

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Interesting, but when you think of it, was/is it ever that good? Roast beef is kind of, well, roast beef. Usually tasteless. With horseraddish, and its sauce, OK. I'll know in 34 days when I return to the land that Guillaume le Conquérant and my arriere arriere arriere gp etc decided to go.

I am beginning to think that the recent stress put on star food providers (like Desnoyer for meat and Thiébault for vegetables) is a bit misleading, and for all that star-system many can no longer see the woods for the tree — the many very decent neighborhood food shops.

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Pti: I think if I see one more menu with attributions to Bordier, Thiébault, Desnoyer, Alléosse, Valrhona, Poujauran, etc., as good as they are, I'll scream. A recent review said, this chef gets good products but doesn't boast about them and the Frenchie chef told me, after I complimented him on his great product, that he didn't go that route, it was very expensive but he sought out folks himself (as I recall Daniel Rose did, esp in his neighborhood).

[Margaret Pilgrim]

As we compare American and French beef I would include the extraordinarily tender and flavorful grilled beef that is served just a few kilometers across the border in Spain. At Etchebari and many other grills in the Pay Basque, the proffered meat is, surprisingly, "ox", ancient farm animals that have been retired, pastured for some months, butchered at the extraordinary ages of 20+ years. Rendering the most succulent steaks, this meat was some of the best "beef" that I have ever eaten on either side of the Atlantic.

[Ptipois]

As we compare American and French beef I would include the extraordinarily tender and flavorful grilled beef that is served just a few kilometers across the border in Spain.  At Etchebari and many other grills in the Pay Basque, the proffered meat is, surprisingly, "ox", ancient farm animals that have been retired, pastured for some months, butchered at the extraordinary ages of 20+ years.  Rendering the most succulent steaks, this meat was some of the best "beef" that I have ever eaten on either side of the Atlantic.

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The best Salers meat I ever had was bought from a small butcher shop in Auvergne, it came from an old animal, ande was beautifully marbled, tender and tasty. I never found the same quality again in Salers meat. One of the problem with modern butchering is that the animals are frequently too young to yield proper "beef".

John: I am puzzled, roast beef is one of the most delicious foods in the world, far better than steak. Although few people seem to make it right and it takes a large cut to make a proper roast.

I agree, I too feel like screaming whenever I see Bordier Desnoyer etc. It seems that some people have come to confuse good products and big names. But good food is not a matter of names. The job of a chef is to search and there is plenty to search from. Stopping at the big names level and piling them up on the chalkboard now seems like a lack of resourcefulness.

I got a good example of that at Sa.qua.na when I discovered that the butter served at table was from Brittany. I found that quite shocking in the heart of Normandy. I told the hostess about it, and she explained that they had not found butter of sufficient quality in the surrounding region. There was no way I could buy that. Not finding excellent butter in Pays d'Auge is like not finding water in the sea, it only means that no one bothered to take a stroll in any of the local markets.

At the OFF3 Omnivore Food Festival in 2008, Petter Nilsson was using a lemon in a recipe. The host commented: "From Menton, of course" and Nilsson replied: "No, not from Menton. If you keep putting stress on extraordinary products, you leave ordinary products with no chance of improvement." That was simple, but it really changed my opinion of how chefs and cooks in general should seek their primal matter.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Ptipois (log)

[julot-les-pinceaux]

You are forgetting Christophe which isn't bad at all. And in every neighborhood there is at least one good butcher shop that will provide you with good, sometimes excellent beef.

...

I also disagree about the fact that good beef, chicken and lamb are uncommon in France.

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I am not forgetting Christophe. While I can agree that his beef was better than the average one served in France, I still do not see the point of eating that.

You got me wrong about lamb and chicken: what I said is that it's very hard to find some good one in the US; just like it's very hard to get some good beef in France, in restaurants or boucheries.

What I do concede is that good French beef, properly aged and aptly cooked, is a delight. But again, it does not happen often, especially in restaurants.

[Bu Pun Su]

One thing I know ...

One of the best beef I've ever eaten is at Pierre Gagnaire French beef

Julot, you should try it if you had a chance

It kills the filet mignon/porterhouse I had at Morton while I was in Chicago several years ago

The other good beef is, of course, in Japan (even the non-Kobe is marbled to some extend)

By the way, is veal simply a young cow aka calf? It seems that the taste, texture and other properties are (very) different

Edited April 30, 2009 by Bu Pun Su (log)

[Ptipois]

I am not forgetting Christophe. While I can agree that his beef was better than the average one served in France, I still do not see the point of eating that.

Well, I did. I found that bœuf de Coutancie to be quite good. I am not sure what it would have needed to be better.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Ptipois (log)

[julot-les-pinceaux]

It could have been much, much more tender. It was pretty chewy, mostly. The fat was good.

I had an excellent filet de boeuf the night before at last at l'Auberge Bressanne. Really superb, tender and tasty, with their usual, addictive, frites.

[LuckyGirl]

I am glad to have stumbled across this topic.

I am an American who disdains commercial American beef and adores French and Swiss beef (even the average French beef that one may find in many places).

I find commercial American beef completely lacking in flavor, even most of the prime stuff. I do not enjoy the taste or mouth-feel of the fat from corn-fed beef not to mention the horrible practice of using antibiotics and hormones that turns me off from eating commercial American beef.

At the same time, when one gets range or pasture raised grass-fed beef in the states it is often overly strong in flavor, too grassy to be enjoyable.

I have found a rancher outside of my hometown of Cleveland who seems to know how to properly raise grass-fed beef. His beef has an incredible, depth of flavor without the pungent grassiness that so much grass fed beef in The States has.

So, after reading this thread it seems to me that the reason I enjoy French and Swiss beef as much as I do is that it is grass-fed but done so properly. I think the issue in the states with grass-fed is that it hasn't been commonly done for so long that people do not know the art of it i.e. when to feed on what grass, best time to slaughter etc.

My husban and I eat far more beef when we are in France and Switzerland than we do when we are home in the states because we so enjoy the beef here!

[Ptipois]

It could have been much, much more tender. It was pretty chewy, mostly. The fat was good.

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I do not remember it being chewy. The picture is quite speaking, besides.

[fresh_a]

Love Coutancie. Alléno gave up wagyu for Coutancie years back.

[RandyB]

Two comments:

1. Where are the Brits when we need them? I've heard them for decades proclaiming the superiority of their beef, and Scottish beef, over French beef.

2. Feeding corn to cows makes as much sense as feeding only fried fast food to children. It's bad for their natural digestion and health, ergo all the additives, medicines, etc. However, the good news is that both the organic and local, sustainable movements are bringing about a significant improvement in the availability and quality of range (grass) fed beef. Teh bad news is that it's still so much higher priced.

[PhilD]

Two comments:

1. Where are the Brits when we need them? I've heard them for decades proclaiming the superiority of their beef, and Scottish beef, over French beef.

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Maybe the answer to Randy's question lies in how each country traditionally cooks beef. In England we roast beef and you can get some really good cuts that roast well, far better than similar cuts in France (I have never tried US ones at home). But I wouldn't be a champion of British steak, there is good steak, but it is tricky to find and you do need to search quite hard to find it in both retail and restaurants.

In the US steaks are king and it is simple to find good steak. I suspect it is helped by the cooking technology and experience. The big US steak broiler is designed for perfect cooking, and given the volume of steak consumed the skill and experience of grill chefs ensures they know how to use the kit to produce an optimum product.

So what of French beef? Is it sensible to compare French beef cooked in a US or British way? It will be difficult for the French product to compete well. But how does French beef compare when cooked in traditional French styles with US or British beef cooked in the same way.

To me the beef from each country is good; however it needs to be cooked in the style appropriate to that country.

[LuckyGirl]

Feeding corn to cows makes as much sense as feeding only fried fast food to children. It's bad for their natural digestion and health, ergo all the additives, medicines, etc.

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Exactly. It boogles my mind the way commercial beef in the US is raised.

[John Talbott]

Interesting piece on FR 2 20h00 Journal tonite about the new US-EU Beef accord that had a video clip showing the chef at Meating who likes Limousin beef, preparing (non-hormone) US beef which he serves due to its taste, albeit at double the price [if I heard correctly], which could change if the quadrupling of imports becomes a reality. No mention of Canadian beef, heretofor in the same boat.

[tetedeveau]

brescd01, French beef is generally grass-fed. It tends to be not so marbled. And I already responded your question about getting some in August.

Pti -- It's true that properly aged French beef can be wonderful, and totally worth a try. But where, oh where, does that ever happen in Paris? There's le Sévero on good days. There's that one cut at Le Gourmet des Ternes. There's the Tournedos at Le Pétrelle but we agreed not to tell anyone. And as far as butchers are concerned, there's Desnoyer and les Boucheries Nivernaises, and even there, you have to insist that you want to beef well aged.

So yes, there is good beef in France. There is good chicken and lamb in the US too. They're just uncommon.

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Very true indeed.

Aged and marbled beef in France is almost impossible to find. You mention the boucherie Nivernaise, not bad but two small problems:

1) Their beef in usually from germany

2) They saved the best pieces (super aged and marbled) for Pierre Gagnaire and other top chefs.

There is also Desnoyer (Aubrac and Saler i think) and Barone (for Coutancie beef)

but i have never seen vintage beef at either.

So far the best beef i've found within reasonable distance of Paris is in London.

It's a butcher called Jack O'Shea and specialise in dry aged beef. They aged it anything from 30 to 50 days to your liking. The marbling ranges from good to exeptional.

As for the cuts it's a mixure of anglo-saxon, south american and french cuts. Ex: porter-house, onglet etc...

Worth a try to anyone who passes London ( But avoid a butcher called "ginger pig")

Also, from my experiences i found that france has the finest poultry, Lamb and Veal. And the anglo-saxon seem to have the tastiest Beef and pork.

And by the way, Hello everyone!