What Makes A Burger Place Fast Food?

[genarog]

This is a common misconception about Europe, which as of last summer (the last time I checked in on this issue) was actually a larger source of revenue for McDonald's than the US.

I don't doubt this, and it makes sense in a way. I don't know if I noticed McDonalds in Rome but they wouldn't surprise me.

But here I was in Bologna, where I went basically for the food, and where in two days I ate the best food in my life, and there was a McDonalds in the middle of the city. Not that Bologna is that small, and it has a significant student population, but still, to me, it amounted to a sacrilege.

[Fat Guy]

An example of often wonderful fast food outside of the US are Spanish tapas.

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I don't get the "outside the US" part of that statement. The tapas trend is quite strong in the US. Tapas aren't as widely available or as good outside of Spain as in Spain, but there are plenty of tapas, not to mention tapas-like small-plates menus with non-Spanish influences. Whether those constitute fast food is another question.

In general, the whole US/non-US distinction seems specious to me. Yes, the US is the home of mega-corporate junk fast food. But this kind of food is now popular in most every nation where the people can afford to eat it, and the big growth areas are outside the US.

Conversely, there is a tremendous quantity of traditional US cuisine that is pretty fast and pretty good. The selection here is probably more diverse than in any country in the world except maybe China. You can go around region by region and name hundreds of fast-food-type items, from New England lobster rolls to many regional styles of barbecue to New York deli sandwiches to Texas chili to . . . you get the idea. Most everywhere I go in the US I find wonderful "road food" alongside the chains. I also like some of the food at the chains. And that's not even getting into all the ethnic "fast food" out there, though the ethnic/non-ethnic distinction is not particularly clear in a nation of immigrants.

[weinoo]

This is a common misconception about Europe, which as of last summer (the last time I checked in on this issue) was actually a larger source of revenue for McDonald's than the US.

I don't doubt this, and it makes sense in a way. I don't know if I noticed McDonalds in Rome but they wouldn't surprise me.

But here I was in Bologna, where I went basically for the food, and where in two days I ate the best food in my life, and there was a McDonalds in the middle of the city. Not that Bologna is that small, and it has a significant student population, but still, to me, it amounted to a sacrilege.

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I think the genesis of Slow Food in Italy was because of the intent to open a McDonald's, right near the Spanish Steps.

McDonald's in Bologna is unsurprising due to the number of students there.

[Fat Guy]

Another facet of the fast-food-burger question is how to categorize the places that par-cook the big burgers. There are plenty of diner-type establishments in New York City (and elsewhere) that serve 7, 8 or 9 ounce burgers. They've always got a few of them par-cooked at the back of the grill, so when you order one you get it in about 3 minutes instead of the 12 or more it would really take to cook it from raw. A lot of people would consider these diners to be not fast food. Yet, the burgers are always degraded by this treatment. Whereas several of the better fast-food places are serving burgers cooked from raw and in some cases even ground on premises.

[genarog]

Another issue for me with fast food is how far I can travel with it. Can I pick it up, then walk 5 blocks, and then eat it, with no significant loss of quality?

If I like my burger medium rare, then the traditional hamburger bun will become soggy. So unfortunately the only solution I have is to eat it at the restaurant or cook it myself.

[docsconz]

An example of often wonderful fast food outside of the US are Spanish tapas.

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I don't get the "outside the US" part of that statement. The tapas trend is quite strong in the US. Tapas aren't as widely available or as good outside of Spain as in Spain, but there are plenty of tapas, not to mention tapas-like small-plates menus with non-Spanish influences. Whether those constitute fast food is another question.

In general, the whole US/non-US distinction seems specious to me. Yes, the US is the home of mega-corporate junk fast food. But this kind of food is now popular in most every nation where the people can afford to eat it, and the big growth areas are outside the US.

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While I applaud the growing popularity of Spanish tapas in the US, it is a very different phenomenon in Spain, where restaurants tend to specialize in a few dishes that are truly fast food, but really, really good fast food. In the US, while the style is similar, the service model is quite different with tapas joints being more small plate sit down restaurants. I stand by the distinction.

As for US, non-US I was simply pointing out a specific form of quality fast food outside the US, not arguing about the relative quality of US ff. I think that you are mixing discussion between posters. I agree that outside of the major chains of which I am not particularly fond, there happens to be a lot of quality ff in the US. Philly cheesesteaks and NY pizza slices as prime examples.

[docsconz]

An example of a hamburger that really doesn't qualify in my mind as ff is White Manna. While they do take-out, it is not a place to go and expect to out the door quickly. Half the fun is sitting at the little diner counter and soaking up the ambience. This is an example of what I meant earlier by "attitude". The food could easily be done as ff, but it isn't nor is it really expected to be.

[docsconz]

This is a common misconception about Europe, which as of last summer (the last time I checked in on this issue) was actually a larger source of revenue for McDonald's than the US.

I don't doubt this, and it makes sense in a way. I don't know if I noticed McDonalds in Rome but they wouldn't surprise me.

But here I was in Bologna, where I went basically for the food, and where in two days I ate the best food in my life, and there was a McDonalds in the middle of the city. Not that Bologna is that small, and it has a significant student population, but still, to me, it amounted to a sacrilege.

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I think the genesis of Slow Food in Italy was because of the intent to open a McDonald's, right near the Spanish Steps.

McDonald's in Bologna is unsurprising due to the number of students there.

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You are correct about the genesis of Slow Food.

[Fat Guy]

It takes just as long to get served at White Castle, which sucks by comparison. To me, White Manna is very much a fast-food establishment serving fast food. It's one of the purest fast-food experiences I've had.

[docsconz]

It takes just as long to get served at White Castle, which sucks by comparison. To me, White Manna is very much a fast-food establishment serving fast food. It's one of the purest fast-food experiences I've had.

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White Manna is wonderful at what they do, but is anything but fast. I agree that White Castle sucks by comparison. White Castle has a very different service structure. White Manna is much more like a diner than a typical ff restaurant.

[Fat Guy]

I've never timed it but it's pretty fast -- as fast as a cooked-to-order burger can be. The wait is mostly because the place is so busy so a lot of people's fast-food burgers get made ahead of yours. Other than that it takes about as long to cook a White Manna burger as it takes to cook a White Castle burger. In a 2001 post Jason Perlow called White Manna "the primordial essence of American fast food." I couldn't agree more.

[docsconz]

I've never timed it but it's pretty fast -- as fast as a cooked-to-order burger can be. The wait is mostly because the place is so busy so a lot of people's fast-food burgers get made ahead of yours. Other than that it takes about as long to cook a White Manna burger as it takes to cook a White Castle burger. In a 2001 post Jason Perlow called White Manna "the primordial essence of American fast food." I couldn't agree more.

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Before this topic, I would have agreed, but it is no more fast food than having a burger at a diner or a regular sit-down restaurant. The fact that patrons generally have to sit and wait for their food and that for the most part it is served and eaten at a bar counter makes the difference. Granted it straddles the line, but I think it crosses just out of the fast food realm. I wouldn't go there if I was in a hurry. I go there to savor the burger and enjoy the surroundings and ambiance for what they are. We may have to agree to disagree on this.

[Fat Guy]

There are no waiters, there are no tables, the burgers are served on paper plates. You're getting food from a counter; just a counter you happen to be sitting at, unless you're taking out from the restaurant as many people do. In the time you're savoring the surroundings and ambiance, on a busy day they produce hundreds of little burgers on that little grill. It's fast food from the glory days of fast food burgers, before the chains switched to frozen patties. Based on what I've heard about White Castle from the pre-war days, they made their hamburgers pretty much exactly as White Manna still does today. They were both fast food then and they're both fast food now, as far as I'm concerned. The New York Times referred to the other one, the one with one "n," as "a fast food landmark." I don't think it's on the line.

[MomOfLittleFoodies]

I've had some darned good burgers from places that didn't have waiters, and I'd hardly call having to wait 15-20 minutes for those burgers "fast food".

[tino27]

I've been interestingly reading this discussion. And while it's hard to precisely pigeon-hole the quality and time required to prepare the burger, for me what differentiates fast food versus non-fast food is when the transaction takes place. If I pay for my meal before I get it (and generally no tip is involved), this to me is fast food. If I pay afterward, then it is not.

Paying up front also goes along with the theory that you are at the eating establishment only long enough to finish your meal.

[Fat Guy]

I was just looking at the QSR 50, which is the ranking of the top 50 quick-service restaurants tracked by QSR magazine. I think 49 of them met your standard, but one didn't: QSR magazine considers Pizza Hut to be a QSR aka fast food restaurant, even though it has a certain level of table service.

[weinoo]

I've been interestingly reading this discussion. And while it's hard to precisely pigeon-hole the quality and time required to prepare the burger, for me what differentiates fast food versus non-fast food is when the transaction takes place. If I pay for my meal before I get it (and generally no tip is involved), this to me is fast food. If I pay afterward, then it is not.

Paying up front also goes along with the theory that you are at the eating establishment only long enough to finish your meal.

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I like this theory, tino27.

[Fat Guy]

Another example on that point: PDT and Crif Dogs in New York City. Crif Dogs is a fast-food order-and-pay-at-the-counter place serving hot dogs and fast-food-style burgers. Next door is PDT, a high-end cocktail bar offering food from Crif Dogs. So if you get a Crif burger at Crif is it fast food but it becomes not fast food if you get it served to you at PDT by a server and pay the tab after?

[slkinsey]

Whereas several of the better fast-food places are serving burgers cooked from raw and in some cases even ground on premises.

Really? Who is serving fast food burgers from meat that is ground fresh on premises?

Another example on that point: PDT and Crif Dogs in New York City. Crif Dogs is a fast-food order-and-pay-at-the-counter place serving hot dogs and fast-food-style burgers. Next door is PDT, a high-end cocktail bar offering food from Crif Dogs. So if you get a Crif burger at Crif is it fast food but it becomes not fast food if you get it served to you at PDT by a server and pay the tab after?

Yes, exactly. Which is why it makes more sense to speak of a "fast food restaurant" rather than "fast food."

Edited April 21, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[Holly Moore]

I get the feeling that "fast food" has one definition within the restaurant industry and one for the general public. The public definition is broader than the industry definition.

Say "fast food burger" to me and I think it comes from one of the chains - franchised or company-owned - that offers walk-up (and now drive-thru) service where one orders and pays for the food at the same time. The burger is pre-cooked or in the process of being cooked before it is ordered and may be already pre-assembled and packaged. Within my mindset White Castle is fast food. White Manna is not fast food.

Pizza Hut is an interesting exception. I do consider Pizza Hut fast food because it is a national chain and found along most fast food rows stretches of highway. From the outside it looks like a fast food chain. It's been so long since I've eaten in a Pizza Hut that I have no feel for their level of table service.

I keep thinking of those montages of fast food signs that publications like Nations Restaurant News do - typically it is all the national fast food chains, including Pizza Hut.

I mentioned the wheel of retailing in a earlier post. I first learned the term while at night school while working in Chicago at McDonald's headquarters. It stuck because even then, in the late 60s, it applied to McDonald's. Even more so now.

Between conception and the late 60s McDonalds had added the quarter pounder, filet-o-fish, and the Big Mac. They had evolved from fresh cut to frozen potatoes. Apple pies were added as a dessert. They had started adding dining rooms. They had designed a new look, less fast-foody style building including no golden arches. They were experimenting with a number of new products. They added breakfast.

Since then, at various points and at various locations, McDonald's has added salad bars and prepackaged salads, more burger variations, chicken sandwich variations. Apple pies are gone, replaced by ice cream. Other menu additions. There is a driv-thru window. Many Mc D's have play lands. Customers bus their tables. Dinner platters are bound to happen.

My interpretation of the Wheel of Retailing as it applies to McDonald's is that to maintain market share McDonald's has had to keep upgrading their food (variety not quality), level of service and atmosphere. This is cyclical and at some point there will be an opening for a new chain to appear that gets total back to the basics - no frills hamburgers, fresh cut fries and drinks sold cheaply, but in an atmosphere that stresses, as McD's motto puts it, "Quality Service and Cleanliness."

Fast food now ain't so fast. Preparation has gotten too complicated. Sales are spread over a multitude of product so fast food places can not count on under ten minute product turnover of all products. Nowadays it is hard to tell the lines to order from the people standing around waiting to receive their order. That rarely happened in the early fast food burger places.

Perhaps the Wheel of Retailing is correct and there is a viable segment of the market that is as interested in the "fast" as in the "food" - a market that is not being served as well today as it was served in the 60s and 70s.

[Holly Moore]

Another example on that point: PDT and Crif Dogs in New York City. Crif Dogs is a fast-food order-and-pay-at-the-counter place serving hot dogs and fast-food-style burgers. Next door is PDT, a high-end cocktail bar offering food from Crif Dogs. So if you get a Crif burger at Crif is it fast food but it becomes not fast food if you get it served to you at PDT by a server and pay the tab after?

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I'm not taking exception because the definition of fast food seems to be in the eye of the beholder. But for me, Crif Dogs is not fast food at least it doesn't feel like a fast food restaurant. I would consider the Nedick's all over New York to be fast food.

Maybe, to fit my perception, the place has to be a chain operation.

Yes, exactly. Which is why it makes more sense to speak of a "fast food restaurant" rather than "fast food."

McDonald's corporate culture always referred to a McDonald's as a restaurant. It was a corporate sin to say "stand" or "store." Just as McDonald's never used grease, just shortening. There were no rags, just towels. No special orders - rather "grills," because if customers heard a counter person requesting a special, other customers would realize that they too could have burgers made to spec which totally slowed down production.

[tino27]

Another example on that point: PDT and Crif Dogs in New York City. Crif Dogs is a fast-food order-and-pay-at-the-counter place serving hot dogs and fast-food-style burgers. Next door is PDT, a high-end cocktail bar offering food from Crif Dogs. So if you get a Crif burger at Crif is it fast food but it becomes not fast food if you get it served to you at PDT by a server and pay the tab after?

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I think that brings in the subcategory of "junk food". If I order it from Crif Dogs, it is both fast food and junk food. If I order it from PDT, it is not fast food, but it is junk food.

(Please, I'm passing no judgment on Crif Dogs ... I've never even had it. I just used it as an example to follow up on Steven's question.)

[tino27]

I was just looking at the QSR 50, which is the ranking of the top 50 quick-service restaurants tracked by QSR magazine. I think 49 of them met your standard, but one didn't: QSR magazine considers Pizza Hut to be a QSR aka fast food restaurant, even though it has a certain level of table service.

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I'm happy with a 98% inclusivity ratio.

[Toliver]

....This is cyclical and at some point there will be an opening for a new chain to appear that gets total back to the basics - no frills hamburgers, fresh cut fries and drinks sold cheaply, but in an atmosphere that stresses, as McD's motto puts it, "Quality Service and Cleanliness."

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It's here already and is called In'n'Out Burger.

[crinoidgirl]

Really?  Who is serving fast food burgers from meat that is ground fresh on premises?

I think Fuddrucker's qualifies as fast food, and they grind fresh on the premises.