• Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create an account.

  • product-image-quickten.png.a40203b506711f7664fc62024e54a584.pngDid you know that these all-volunteer forums are operated by the 501(c)3 not-for-profit Society for Culinary Arts & Letters? This holiday season, consider a tax-deductible Quick Ten Bucks to support the eG Forums and help us remain completely advertising-free. Thanks to all those who have donated so far!

MexChef

Sous Vide Duck Confit

63 posts in this topic

It is pasteurized, not sterilized so rapid chilling keeps it out of the danger zone when cooling. Besides it allows me to throw it in the fridge without affecting other foods by raising the temperature by putting hot food in there.

Hm, I am not particularly convinced by either argument. The latter argument (re: fridge temperatures) has been debunked. As for rapid chilling for food safety, I think you will find that the risk is minimal if almost nonexistent if you chill in an ice bath as opposed to simply moving the bags from the SV machine directly into the fridge.

Rapid chilling is the recommended safe procedure for sous vide food that'll be held in the fridge for an extended period of time.

"(to avoid sporulation of C. perfringens (Andersson et al., 1995)), and either refrigerated or frozen until reheating for service. Typically, the pasteurized food pouches are rapidly chilled by placing them in an ice water bath for at least the time listed in Table 1.1."

"While keeping your food sealed in plastic pouches prevents recontamination after cooking, spores of Clostridium botulinum, C. perfringens, and B. cereus can all survive the mild heat treatment of pasteurization. Therefore, after rapid chilling, the food must either be frozen or held at

  1. below 36.5°F (2.5°C) for up to 90 days,
  2. below 38°F (3.3°C) for less than 31 days,
  3. below 41°F (5°C) for less than 10 days, or
  4. below 44.5°F (7°C) for less than 5 days

to prevent spores of non-proteolytic C. botulinum from outgrowing and producing deadly neurotoxin (Gould, 1999; Peck, 1997)."

Source: http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html


~Martin

Unsupervised rebellious radical agrarian experimenter, minimalist penny-pincher, self-reliant homesteader and adventurous cook. Crotchety cantankerous terse curmudgeon, nonconformist, contrarian and natural born skeptic who questions everything!

The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can hunt and trap out of it! 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keith, see this food safety document from New South Wales Health. They got the bulk of their information direct from Douglas Baldwin. Table 4 shows the cooling times for meat of varying thickness and shape in an ice slurry. Given the length of time it takes to cool in an ice slurry, I'd be using this rather than conventional fridge temperatures.


Edited by nickrey (log)

Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"The Internet is full of false information." Plato
My eG Foodblog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm always persuaded by data. Where was the former debunked? and what is your evidence for the latter? I recall looking at the thermal cooling model put together by either Douglas or Nathanm and they came down firmly on the side of using an ice bath rather than just throwing it in the fridge.

Hi Nick, re: refrigerator temperatures I can't seem to find my reference right now. I thought I read it in MC or McGee, but a quick flick through McGee didn't show it up. In any case, if you put hot food in the fridge, it does not warm up the rest of the fridge any more than opening the door would. The thermostat on your refrigerator regulates the temperature and takes care of that.

Re: bacterial growth I defer to your source. Thank you for pointing that out.


There is no love more sincere than the love of food - George Bernard Shaw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm always persuaded by data. Where was the former debunked? and what is your evidence for the latter? I recall looking at the thermal cooling model put together by either Douglas or Nathanm and they came down firmly on the side of using an ice bath rather than just throwing it in the fridge.

Hi Nick, re: refrigerator temperatures I can't seem to find my reference right now. I thought I read it in MC or McGee, but a quick flick through McGee didn't show it up. In any case, if you put hot food in the fridge, it does not warm up the rest of the fridge any more than opening the door would. The thermostat on your refrigerator regulates the temperature and takes care of that

Hi Keith, I think I remember Modernist Cuisine claiming the opposite. There was a "heat-map" photo (taken with infra-red camera or something similar) showing how foods close to the hot one and the whole area around were much hotter, in fact moving into non-safe temperatures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding quick lazy duck confits. I have made a lot of duck legs properly salted overnight, but recently got lazy and am doing exclusively the 3 minutes version: add salt, pepper, herbs to the fresh leg in a bag, seal and sent it into SV. It comes out really good; in fact, my wife is convinced that we never had a better duck leg at any restaurant. As for me,I think there is difference between the proper and lazy versions, but i am not 100% sure. Even if it exists, the difference is too small to overcome my laziness.

What do you think? Does all the long-term salting make any difference?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

long time( 24 hour) salting removes excess liquid from the duck legs and firms the meat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember the original purpose of the confit technique was to preserve the meat for eating later. The salt probably helps with that. On the other hand, if you're making it for immediate consumption (or only short-term storage) because it's yummy, the salt won't be as important. You could quite happily add it to suit your taste as you're plating it to serve.


Leslie Craven, aka "lesliec"
Host, eG Forumslcraven@egstaff.org

After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relatives ~ Oscar Wilde

My eG Foodblog

eGullet Ethics Code signatory

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, basically you're not really making confit. You're making a duck leg braised in its own fat.

So it's not a lazy confit at all.

Precisely. What puzzles me is that I cannot tell a difference in taste between the two versions. Hence, the question: are we attached beyond reason to the tradition, or is my ability to tell a difference in taste compromised? I guess someone who has tried cooking the legs sous-vide both ways can chime in. Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First, you'd have to taste confit made and cured in the traditional manner. Then taste the sous-vide version where the legs are cured in salt for 24 hours before being bagged and cooked. Then taste your version. I imagine all 3 will taste differently.


Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"

mweinstein@eGstaff.org

Tasty Travails - My Blog

My eGullet FoodBog - A Tale of Two Boroughs

Was it you baby...or just a Brilliant Disguise?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guess I'm a traditionalist, but I prefer the old way. Of course having said that I have admit to not having made my own for years.

I either buy one cuisse (thigh with leg still attached) at a time from the deli counter of my local supermarket. Or I buy cans from Aldi at 5.60 Euros per can of 4 cuisses. The canned stuff is great & I get to save the extra duck fat.

Can't say that I've had sous vide comfit, but I can sat that the canned stuff is better than my efforts.

Now, goose comfit is a whole different ball game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, basically you're not really making confit. You're making a duck leg braised in its own fat.

So it's not a lazy confit at all.

Precisely. What puzzles me is that I cannot tell a difference in taste between the two versions. Hence, the question: are we attached beyond reason to the tradition, or is my ability to tell a difference in taste compromised? I guess someone who has tried cooking the legs sous-vide both ways can chime in. Thanks!

FWIW, Nathan Myhrvhold said that they (the Modernist Cuisine team) made blind tests and they could not detect any difference, in a message in this very forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just a bit of an aside: Ive never understood how the fat was supposed to 'preserve' the duck: wouldnt the fat, at least that in contact with the air ( surface ) get rancid?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, basically you're not really making confit. You're making a duck leg braised in its own fat.

So it's not a lazy confit at all.

Precisely. What puzzles me is that I cannot tell a difference in taste between the two versions. Hence, the question: are we attached beyond reason to the tradition, or is my ability to tell a difference in taste compromised? I guess someone who has tried cooking the legs sous-vide both ways can chime in. Thanks!

FWIW, Nathan Myhrvhold said that they (the Modernist Cuisine team) made blind tests and they could not detect any difference, in a message in this very forum.

The Myhvhold experiment was poached in duck fat vs steamed and then coated with duck fat. That's a different experiment from salted immediately vs cured overnight and rinsed.


PS: I am a guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just a bit of an aside: Ive never understood how the fat was supposed to 'preserve' the duck: wouldnt the fat, at least that in contact with the air ( surface ) get rancid?

A little bit of rancidity contributes to the "aged" confit flavor. The main concern is preventing oxygen from getting to the meat to inhibit spoilage bacteria.


PS: I am a guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soooooooo you scrape off a bit of the oxygen sensitive Top before you delve in to the Duck?

then there are those Nasty Anaerobes. :blink:

but it seems to work. Im guessing in the Olden Days they gobbled this stuff up, they did not have central heating, and that helped a lot.

\just a guess

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soooooooo you scrape off a bit of the oxygen sensitive Top before you delve in to the Duck?

then there are those Nasty Anaerobes. :blink:

but it seems to work. Im guessing in the Olden Days they gobbled this stuff up, they did not have central heating, and that helped a lot.

\just a guess

The traditional recipe used a lot of salt, which is going to inhibit bacterial growth significantly.


Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"The Internet is full of false information." Plato
My eG Foodblog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Myhvhold experiment was poached in duck fat vs steamed and then coated with duck fat. That's a different experiment from salted immediately vs cured overnight and rinsed.

¡Oh!, thanks for clarifying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found a subtle difference between the traditional and the sous vide versions -- I think the difference for me was that the traditional (I made a significant amount for a christmas party one year) developed more and more over the months I had it. The confit I started with in December, tasted nothing like the confit I finished in about July. You just can't get that with the sous vide version.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found a subtle difference between the traditional and the sous vide versions -- I think the difference for me was that the traditional (I made a significant amount for a christmas party one year) developed more and more over the months I had it. The confit I started with in December, tasted nothing like the confit I finished in about July. You just can't get that with the sous vide version.

This comment raises the elephant in the room. If the sous vide confit uses similar salting, encases the product in fat, and is well past the temperature and time for pasteurisation why can't it be kept for similar times to conventional confit?


Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"The Internet is full of false information." Plato
My eG Foodblog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best solution is to make sous vide confit using fat you have been recycling for traditional confit over the years. That way you get the ease of the use and the light rancidity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you include curing salts? They're not mentioned in the two recipes linked in the OP, but are traditional. If so, that would explain the color. If not, I'm baffled, as I would have expected ten hours as 75C/167F to be enough to color-degrade the myyoglobin (the protein which makes meat pink), though I will say I can't recall having ever having cooked anything at precisely that temp. In any event, taking the temp up to 82C/180F should solve the problem. That's a temp I've used lots of times when aiming for braised texture by SV. No pink, in my experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Curing salts are not traditional in confit.


Edited by sigma (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi pbear. No, I didn't include any curing salt. I did previously cook duck legs at 82 C for 8 hours, but this time wanted to experiment with another temperature and follow this advice. For now the legs are in the freezer. Maybe browining on the outside and warming in the oven a little longer is going to be enough if the legs already cooked 10 hours at 75 C.

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By eG Forums Host
      Introduction

      Welcome to the index for the Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques, & Equipment topic, one of the largest and most influential topics on eG Forums. (The topic has been closed to keep the index stable and reliable; you can find another general SV discussion topic here.) This index is intended to help you navigate the thousands of posts and discussions to make this rich resource more useful and accessible.

      In order to understand sous vide cooking, it's best to clear up some misconceptions and explain some basics. Sous vide cooking involves vacuum-sealing food in a plastic bag and cooking it in a water bath at precise temperatures. Though it translates literally as "under vacuum," "Sous vide" is often taken to mean "under pressure," which is a misnomer; not all SV cooking involves food cooked in conditions that exceed atmospheric pressure. (See below.) In addition, calculations for SV cooking involve not only time and temperature but also thickness. Finally, due to the anaerobic conditions inside the bag and the low temperatures used, food safety issues are paramount.

      You can read the basics of SV cooking and equipment here. In the summer of 2005, Nathan Myhrvold (Society member nathanm) posted this informative, "I'm now going to answer my own initial questions" post, which addresses just about everything up to that point. For what came next, read on -- and be sure to order Nathan Myhrvold's highly anticipated Modernist Cuisine book, due in spring 2011.

      As with all indexes of on-going discussions, this one has limitations. We've done our best to create a user-friendly taxonomy emphasizing the categories that have come up repeatedly. In addition, the science, technology, and recipes changed over time, and opinions varied greatly, so be sure to read updated information whenever possible.

      Therefore, we strongly encourage you to keep these issues in mind when reading the topic, and particularly when considering controversial topics related to food safety, doneness, delta T cooking, and so on. Don't read a first post's definitive claim without reading down the topic, where you'll likely find discussion, if not heated debate or refutation, of that claim. Links go to the first post in a series that may be discontinuous, so be sure to scan a bit more to get the full discussion.

      Recipes were chosen based solely on having a clear set of information, not on merit. Indeed, we've included several stated failures for reference. Where possible, recipes include temperature and time in the link label -- but remember that thickness is also a crucial variable in many SV preparations. (See below for more information on thickness.)

      History, Philosophy & Value of SV/LTLT Cooking

      Over the years, we've talked quite a bit about SV as a concept, starting with this discussion about how SV cooking got started. There have also been several people who asked, Why bother with SV in the first place? (See also this discussion.) What with all the electronics and plastic bags, we asked: Does SV food lack passion? Finally, there have been several discussions about the value of SV cooking in other eG Forums topics, such as the future of SV cooking, No More Sous Vide -- PLEASE!, is SV "real cooking," and what's the appeal of SV?

      Those who embrace SV initially seek ideas about the best applications for their new equipment. Discussions have focused on what a first SV meal should be -- see also this discussion -- and on the items for which SV/LTLT cooking is best suited. There's much more along those lines here, here, and here.

      Vacuums and Pressure in Sous Vide Cooking

      As mentioned above, there has been great confusion about vacuums, pressure, and their role SV cooking. Here is a selection of discussion points on the subject, arranged chronologically; please note that later posts in a given discussion may refute earlier ones:

      Do you need a vacuum for SV cooking, and, if so, why? What exactly is a "vacuum"? Click here, here, and ff. Are items in vacuum-sealed bags "under pressure"? Does a vacuum sealer create a vacuum inside the bag? Do you really need a vacuum, or can you use ZipLoc bags? Also see here, here, and here. If "sous vide" means "under pressure," aren't the items in the bag under pressure? There is more along these lines to be found in this discussion.  

      The Charts

      We've collected the most important of many charts in the SV topic here. Standing above the rest are Nathan Myhrvold's charts for cooking time versus thickness and desired core temperature. We worked with him to create these three reformatted protein tables, for beef, fish, and chicken & pork.

      Nathan provides additional information on his charts here. Information on how to read these charts can be found in this post. For an explanation of "rest time" in Nathan's tables, click here.

      Other Society members helped out as well. Douglas Baldwin references his heating time table for different geometric factors (slab/cylinder/sphere) here; the pdf itself can be found here. pounce created a post with all three tables as neatly formatted images. derekslager created two monospace font charts of Nathan's meat table and his fish table.

      Camano Chef created a cumulative chart with information gathered from other sources including Thomas Keller's Ad Hoc. Douglas Baldwin shared this chart devoted to pasteurizing poultry. PedroG detailed heat loss and steady state energy consumption of sous vide cookers in these charts.

      Finally, there is also an eG Forums topic on cooling rates that may be of interest.

      Acknowledgment & Comments

      This index was built by Chris Amirault, Director, eG Forums. It was reviewed by the eGullet Society volunteer team as well as many Society members. Please send questions or comments to Chris via messenger or email.
       
       
    • By TdeV
      Wikipedia defines pork wings as: a pork product made from the fibula of a pig's shank - a single bone surrounded by lean, tender meat.
      Images from the internet look like a finger-size bit of meat around a bone.
      Mine, however, look more like the meat (lots) which surrounds a bone. My butcher called this cut pork wings.
      You can see on the right that there's a small amount of bone.
         
       
      My butcher said he regularly ate SEVERAL of these. But this one measures 15 oz (425g).
      He also said it had to be cooked slowly.
       
      So, if I cook these sous vide, what temp and for how long?
    • By jedovaty
      Good morning!
       
      Long story short: I am doing a spin off the coconut/chocolate/almond candy (almond joy), and trying to create a specific shape out of the almond.  My hands are cramped after a couple dozen failed attempts whittling roasted almonds, so now I'd like to try a different approach, and instead, create some kind of sub-candy or cookie with roasted almonds that I can put into a mold or use a mini cookie cutter.  I'm fairly new to sweets, my knowledge in this area is pretty slim.  Some ideas so far, I don't like any, but it might help turn some gears:
      1. dusting almond over a stencil, but that's not enough almond nor crunchy enough
      2. almond brittle, but that's too hard and sweet, I'd like it more of a soft crunch, and bringing the almond flavor forward
      3. meringue with almonds (sort of macaron-ish), however, weather has been humid and raining here, and I'm ending up with a gooey mess instead of that soft crunch
       
      In addition to having almond-forward taste and soft crunch texture, it'd be fun to explore something modernish - I have a accumulated a few tools and ingredients not customarily found in homes.
       
      There are dietary considerations I will have to account for, however, no need to worry about that now, I am just looking for ideas and a place to take it from there
       
      Thank you for your time in reading!
    • By Franzisaurus_Rex
      FOOD BRETHREN!
      I need some advice. I have one last piece of pork belly confit in the fridge. I brined these bitches for about 5 days (brine included pink curing salt), vacuum sealed the squares of pork belly with lard and sous vide them at 158 F for 16 hours. I cooked this on 11/10/16 and its been in my refrigerator since. 
      Here is the general recipe I followed, with some modifications based on my taste: https://www.chefsteps.com/activities/...
      The last piece is still vacuum sealed and submerged (mostly) in lard. Any visible pork only has contact with the bag. 
      It's staring at me. And calling my name.
      I want to deep fry this sucker and have a little date night with the handsome devil I see in the mirror every morning, but the last thing I want is spoiled food. I can't find any conclusive information about how long pork confit lasts for. I've only seen references that duck confit or in general that the confit technique will last for months in the fridge. I have found no sources which directly addresses pork confit.
      Questions/Factors I'm Considering:
      - Does pork confit keep for as long as duck confit?
      - Does vacuum sealing have any effect on the length of preservation?
      - Does sous-vide cooking method affect the length of preservation?
      I know I am probably being a bit paranoid, but I thought I would do my due diligence before taking the plunge, so to speak. Any advice on these questions would be extremely helpful and appreciated!
      The Franzisaurus-Rex
      PS - you should totally make this if you are into sous vide, confit, food, or have any respect for the enjoyment of life. Flash-searing these things after cooking was OUT OF THIS WORLD.
    • By JoNorvelleWalker
      The NY Times has a current article in the science section "A Universe of Bubbles in Every Champagne Bottle".
       
      The article asserts that it is better to serve Champagne at warmer than refrigerator temperatures so that the bubbles are larger and convey more flavor.  Also to serve in a narrow glass.
       
      However Gerard Liger-Belair (who is referenced as an authority in the Times article) points out in his book Uncorked (forward by Herve This) that the colder the wine the more viscous and the more dissolved CO2.  Liger-Belair also prefers a goblet to a flute.  I bought Uncorked after reading about it in Liquid Intelligence from Dave Arnold.
       
      Discuss.
       
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.