Baking ingredient ratios

[Darienne]

It was serendipity. I recently halved a recipe and was not pleased with the resulting creation and wondered why. The very next day, I read in a fairly recent Bon Appetit (sorry, I did not note the date) in answer to a question re making a particular cake and halving the recipe, and then having it not work out properly:

‘...but it's not all that unusual. According to food scientist Shirley O. Corriher, you should technically be able to halve a cake recipe that is "balanced"- -one in which the weights of the components (flour, milk, fat, and so forth) are in a standard ratio....

...a large cake needs a smaller proportion of leavening and a larger amount of liquid than a small cake. Using different sizes of cake pans with the same ratio of ingredients might produce different results. Dividing a recipe that isn't perfectly balanced can magnify any irregularities--even if they are intentional variations in the standard ratio.’

OK. First of all please, what is a ‘balanced’ or ‘standard’ ratio? What kind of cake would work that is not perfectly balanced? Are recipes often ‘unbalanced”?

Any and all comments gratefully received in the quest.

[Desiderio]

I am not sure if this can be one of the reasons, are we talking about recipes that are I cups or grams? I think there was a similar thread with a bread issue and why they use baker's. % etc. I think recipes that are in cups are very hard to halve, I am used to grams and usually easier to halve. This is my experience though.

[HungryC]

Different kinds of baked goods have different ratios: get Corriher's Cookwise to begin or her subsequent Bakewise if you really want to learn about the topic. Depending on the leavening (chemical, yeast) and the fats (oil, butter, shortening), and even the kind of sugar (corn syrup, granulated sugar, honey), the results will be different. You can generalize about pound cakes, butter/genoise, sponge cakes, angel food--in other words, within certain cake/baked good types.

Many recipes work as written, but may contain excess leavening, or sugar, or water, etc. When the recipe is halved or doubled, a small excess or insufficiency is magnified. It takes quite a bit of baking chemistry knowledge to eyeball a recipe and figure out whether it is efficiently written--you have to know all sorts of stuff about acidity (pH), temperature of ingredients, temp of baking, kind of leavening, kind of flour, how the fat is incorporated into the flour, and so on and so forth.

[Darienne]

I am not sure if this can be one of the reasons, are we talking about recipes that are I cups or grams? I think there was a similar thread with a bread issue and why they use baker's. % etc. I think recipes that are in cups are very hard to halve, I am used to grams and usually easier to halve. This is my experience though.

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Good point, but I think that they are getting at something else which I don't understand. Thanks.

[Darienne]

Different kinds of baked goods have different ratios:  get Corriher's Cookwise to begin or her subsequent Bakewise if you really want to learn about the topic.  Depending on the leavening (chemical, yeast) and the fats (oil, butter, shortening), and even the kind of sugar (corn syrup, granulated sugar, honey), the results will be different.  You can generalize about pound cakes, butter/genoise, sponge cakes, angel food--in other words, within certain cake/baked good types.

Many recipes work as written, but may contain excess leavening, or sugar, or water, etc.  When the recipe is halved or doubled, a small excess or insufficiency is magnified.  It takes quite a bit of baking chemistry knowledge to eyeball a recipe and figure out whether it is efficiently written--you have to know all sorts of stuff about acidity (pH), temperature of ingredients, temp of baking, kind of leavening, kind of flour, how the fat is incorporated into the flour, and so on and so forth.

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I think I will order the Corriher on ILL. Cookwise. Thanks for the information.

[etalanian]

Berenbaum also discusses this issue in The Cake Bible.

Eileen

[Darienne]

Berenbaum also discusses this issue in The Cake Bible.

Eileen

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Thanks. Just received that book last week and have scarcely opened the cover yet. I will look up the information.

[paulraphael]

It's just that there are some physical concerns to address when you increase or decrease quantities.

This is true in all things, but cake recipes involve some of the most delicate balances that we work with, so small changes can sometimes break the final result. depends on the kind of cake, of course ... some are pretty robust.

Some things that are not addressed by simply changing quantities while keeping ratios constant:

-As quantities increase, volume increases at an exponentially higher rate than surface area. So you'll have less surface area exposed to the air, and proportionally less evaporation

-As quantities increase, volume increases at an exponentially lower rate than diameter. This can make changes in baking time tricky to calculate.

-Larger cakes get proportionally less support from the pan. A cake that has enough structure to support itself at one size might not have enough at double that size. Unless you address this by tweaking the recipe or changing pan shape (a tube pan, etc.) the whole thing might collapse.

I'm not familiar with the rule of thumb, "..a large cake needs a smaller proportion of leavening and a larger amount of liquid than a small cake." And I don't know why that would be. But there might be something to it!

I mess with most recipes with impunity, but am still pretty shy when it comes to cakes. They can be delicate creatures. And recipes written by people who lack the technical mastery of Rose Barenbaum and Shirley Coriher are often held together in the first place by little more than blind luck and good intentions.

Edited February 19, 2009 by paulraphael (log)

[Darienne]

It's just that there are some physical concerns to address when you increase or decrease quantities.

This is true in all things, but cake recipes involve some of the most delicate balances that we work with, so small changes can sometimes break the final result. depends on the kind of cake, of course ... some are pretty robust.

Some things that are not addressed by simply changing quantities while keeping ratios constant:

-As quantities increase, volume increases at an exponentially higher rate than surface area. So you'll have less surface area exposed to the air, and proportionally less evaporation

-As quantities increase, volume increases at an exponentially lower rate than diameter. This can make changes in baking time tricky to calculate.

-Larger cakes get proportionally less support from the pan. A cake that has enough structure to support itself at one size might not have enough at double that size. Unless you address this by tweaking the recipe or changing pan shape (a tube pan, etc.) the whole thing might collapse.

I'm not familiar with the rule of thumb, "..a large cake needs a smaller proportion of leavening and a larger amount of liquid than a small cake." And I don't know why that would be. But there might be something to it!

I mess with most recipes with impunity, but am still pretty shy when it comes to cakes. They can be delicate creatures. And recipes written by people who lack the technical mastery of Rose Barenbaum and Shirley Coriher are often held together in the first place by little more than blind luck and good intentions.

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Thank you for your thoughtful reply. There is much in it for a novice to ponder. Thanks.

[Marmish]

The Cake Bible has info about the leavening. If I remember correctly, mostly in terms of scaling up. It doesn't increase proportionally. Something about internal structure and surface tension, I think. Sorry I don't remember more, but if you have the book, I found it easy to understand. (if not to remember)

[Darienne]

The Cake Bible has info about the leavening.  If I remember correctly, mostly in terms of scaling up.  It doesn't increase proportionally.  Something about internal structure and surface tension, I think.  Sorry I don't remember more, but if you have the book, I found it easy to understand. (if not to remember)

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I have not only the Cake Bible but also the Pie and Pastry Bible, ordered in a greedy 'throw caution to the winds moment' last month.

This morning, while waiting at the dentist's...FOR OVER AN HOUR...I dipped into the Cake book. It is wonderful! It explains so many things. I have fallen in love and shall wallow around in this book for months to come.

Thanks for writing.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Darienne (log)

[pastrygirl]

I'm not familiar with the rule of thumb, "..a large cake needs a smaller proportion of leavening and a larger amount of liquid than a small cake." And I don't know why that would be. But there might be something to it!

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It seems like if you are going from an 8" layer to a 10" layer, the larger cake will take longer to bake, and evaporate more liquid in that time, so more liquid needed makes sense.

According to RLB: the larger the pan size, the less baking powder is used in proportion to other ingredients. This is because of surface tension. The larger the diameter of the pan, the slower the heat penetration and the less support the rising cake receives because the sides are further from the center. Baking powder weakens the cake's structure by enlarging the air spaces, so decreasing baking powder strengthens the structure and compensates for retarded gelatinization and the decrease in support. Hmmmm, so what about baking soda? Same rule?

Edited February 22, 2009 by pastrygirl (log)

[Darienne]

Different kinds of baked goods have different ratios:  get Corriher's Cookwise to begin or her subsequent Bakewise if you really want to learn about the topic.  Depending on the leavening (chemical, yeast) and the fats (oil, butter, shortening), and even the kind of sugar (corn syrup, granulated sugar, honey), the results will be different.  You can generalize about pound cakes, butter/genoise, sponge cakes, angel food--in other words, within certain cake/baked good types.

Many recipes work as written, but may contain excess leavening, or sugar, or water, etc.  When the recipe is halved or doubled, a small excess or insufficiency is magnified.  It takes quite a bit of baking chemistry knowledge to eyeball a recipe and figure out whether it is efficiently written--you have to know all sorts of stuff about acidity (pH), temperature of ingredients, temp of baking, kind of leavening, kind of flour, how the fat is incorporated into the flour, and so on and so forth.

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I did. I did. I got Corriher's Cookwise and every second page I am declaring...'I didn't know that'. Amazing book. I am really going to have to earn some money soon to pay for all the Amazon purchases I am making. Oh, I didn't know about books on Amazon either until January.

[paulraphael]

It seems like if you are going from an 8" layer to a 10" layer, the larger cake will take longer to bake, and evaporate more liquid in that time, so more liquid needed makes sense. 

According to RLB: the larger the pan size, the less baking powder is used in proportion to other ingredients. This is because of surface tension. The larger the diameter of the pan, the slower the heat penetration and the less support the rising cake receives because the sides are further from the center. Baking powder weakens the cake's structure by enlarging the air spaces, so decreasing baking powder strengthens the structure and compensates for retarded gelatinization and the decrease in support.  Hmmmm, so what about baking soda?  Same rule?

←

Great explanation!

At first I was going to assume that baking soda would come with the same considerations as baking soda. But since double acting baking soda actually produces additional gas in the oven, I can see how it might be different. So it seems like an open question.

[tmriga]

I have both Cookwise and Bakewise. I love them both. Shirley Corriher is my culinary hero!

Now, about buying books on Amazon. Unless you are trying to score on the free shipping, check the prices of the same books on eBay. I paid $20 US for Bakewise, which included shipping. And I only paid $100 for the entire set of the Professional French Pastry Series.

Theresa

[Chris Amirault]

Fascinating discussion. As I read this, I started thinking about the difference between various cake pan dimensions and their effect on surface tension and moisture loss. For example, circular cake pans with identical heights but different diameters would correspond to the rules that Paul outlines above. But wouldn't things get trickier if, say, you were changing a recipe meant for an 8"x2" circular pan to be used for a 10"x3" circular pan? The increased depth provides greater structure while the increased diameter provides less.