Serrated knife v. regular knife for cutting bread

[Fat Guy]

I don't get the issue with the edge. Is bread really damaging to a knife's edge, outside of the normal wear that any cutting causes?

[weinoo]

If you checked out the crust on some of these homemade breads (especially when they're a day or two old)...also, I find the gripping of the serrated edge is a lot safer than that of my chef's knives.

[slkinsey]

If it's a hard crust, it's a lot harder than most anything you would ordinarily cut with a chef's knife. Knives sharpened to an acute angle could potentially chip on a hard crust.

It's usually possible to find a decent, reverse scalloped, offset handle bread knife for under 25 bucks.

[Edward J]

Paulrapheal was pretty darn right about bread dulling knives. It's an unexplained phenonoma (sp?!) and I've heard theories about gluten strands being tougher than steel. In any case cutting bread with my regular knives for a few days will dull them to the point where the edge resembles a dollar store screwdriver.

A knife sharpened with coarser grits has quite a bit of "bite" to it and this helps in slicing foods like bread, tomatoes, peppers. However one of the laws of sharpening states that the coarser the finished edge, the shorter the edge will last, and I tend to use abrasives up to 8000-12000 grit range. My knives don't "bite" that well, but they do keep their edges for a decent length of time, needless to say I don't like using them on bread.

Having spent some time with electric electric bread slicers--the kind that bakeries use, it is well known that the blades must be changed frequently, as they dull fairly quickly--in direct ratio with the volume being feed through the slicer. The blades are serrated, with rounded scallops, not sharp pointed ones. The machine is basically two frames of blades, both moving up and down, just like an electric knife. No manufacturer has seen it worthwhile to change this aspect of the machine.

Also as Paulrapheal states, there are many types of serrated knives. My favorite is a Forschner, the scallops are rounded, not pointed/peaked. While this knife performs flawlessly with breads and especially cakes, it works well with fibrous vegetables like ginger and celery too. It is not aggresive, and can cut freshly baked bread without tearing it, and cut crusty breads without shattering the whole crust.

[Octaveman]

There was a big hullabaloo a few years ago when someone used his Tojiro gyuto (from powdered steel line IIRC) on a baguette and he chipped the hell out of it. Other people were chiming in saying they had the same experience. Rather than admit these people used their knife in a manner not ideally suited they started bashing the knife. Comments like "I want a knife I can do whatever I want" or "this knife sucks because it chips so easily" were spewed forth in a blatent attempt to cover their actions. As a result this knife started becoming less and less recommended dispite the fact that it was one helluva knife for the price.

During this long discussion, I decided to perform my own test using my Hiromoto AS which is reputed to be one of the best knives on the market and attacked a baguette. It shredded the edge and left tiny shards of crust lying around. I then went online and bought the MAC. It is without a doubt a fantastic bread knife. Sometimes it will glide atop hard crusted breads but catches fairly quickly with a full stroke down the blade. I use it all the time to cut sandwiches, split rolls, etc.

The moral of the story is, um, I don't know. But I do know that I've had great success using the MAC versus any other knife for bread.

[Fat Guy]

But all those fancy Japanese knives have easily chippable edges, especially when sharpened to 10 degrees by online knife fanatics. If you look at them funny, they chip. Using those knives requires complete redefinition of one's knife-use practices. Whereas, I cut bread all the time with my Wusthof 10" chef's knife and have never chipped or messed up anything. I sharpen the knife periodically, and not particularly skillfully, just as I would if I never touched crust with it. Bread is just one of the zillion things I cut with that knife without incident. When it gets dull, I sharpen it. No big deal.

[Octaveman]

Agreed. Japanese knives shouldn't be used for bread. Maybe that was the moral I was searching for since others posted bad results using them. A softer chef's knife would definitely be better suited than a harder one. I'm sure I used at the time my Henckels for bread but it was so long ago I don't recall what I experienced and since I don't have any Euro knives any more I can't do a direct compare/contrast with the MAC I own. I can say the reversed scalloped knives perform very well. In addition to the MAC, I hear that the Wusthoff Super Slicer and the Shun Classic are both excellent for bread. Both of these have reverse scallops which I think is key to it's success.

[weinoo]

But all those fancy Japanese knives have easily chippable edges, especially when sharpened to 10 degrees by online knife fanatics. If you look at them funny, they chip. Using those knives requires complete redefinition of one's knife-use practices. Whereas, I cut bread all the time with my Wusthof 10" chef's knife and have never chipped or messed up anything. I sharpen the knife periodically, and not particularly skillfully, just as I would if I never touched crust with it. Bread is just one of the zillion things I cut with that knife without incident. When it gets dull, I sharpen it. No big deal.

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I guess there are different definitions for "dull" and "sharp."

[slkinsey]

Exactly. Anyone who goes to a lot of trouble to get a knife paper-shredding sharp isn't going to want to dull it up cutting into a loaf of bread.

[paulraphael]

I think the moral of the story is that if you cut a lot bread (especially crusty bread, and extra-especially crusty bread with a soft crumb) a good bread knife is probably worth it. If you don't, it probably isn't.

As far as bread actually shredding sharp knife edges .... I've had this experience, with a Hiromoto AS, actually. But as my sharpening technique and cutting technique got more competent, the problem vanished. Now I just find bread dulls the blade quickly, so I only use it on bread in a pinch, like when I'm making a sandwich and don't want to dirty up a second knife.

[peterm2]

I love my bread knife. The biggest plus for me compared to my Japanese chef's knife, other than that my chef's knife would chip, is that my bread knife is much longer and can get through the big round loaves I make, rather than having to cut twice because my knife couldn't reach across. If you have a long slicer or don't often have big loaves of bread (or don't mind cutting more than once for a piece) then I suppose it wouldn't be as big a deal.

[Edward J]

But all those fancy Japanese knives have easily chippable edges, especially when sharpened to 10 degrees by online knife fanatics. If you look at them funny, they chip.

Yup. And I'm not knocking any brand of knife here.

Look, what's the diference between an axe and a surgeon's scalpel? Sure, wild and wierd metal formulas, but the bevel is really important. An axe has a bevel around 35-40 , so you can hack away at trees all day long and not worry about an edge crumbling or chipping. A surgeon's scalpel's bevel is probably around the 8-10 range, and as soon as it hits scar tissue or god forbid-a bone, the edge will crumble and fold over.

The harder the metal, the more brittle it is. Anyone ever dropped a file on a cement floor? Breaks like glass. Yes the better and fancier knives have a core of softer steel and the edges of harder, but this edge, if it has and extreme bevel will chip very easily.

So I agree and like fatguy's way of doing things: Get a decent knife--not too fancy or wild, and sharpen it when needed but don't fret about high bevel angles and abrasives. Then again, I've got one or two very old and nasty scars on my hands from when a regular knife slipped on hard bread crust and sliced into my knuckles. I tend to use a bread knife, unless I can't find one, and then the knife slips and I cut myself......

[paulraphael]

Get a decent knife--not too fancy or wild, and sharpen it when needed but don't fret about high bevel angles and abrasives ...

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This approach has worked in Western kitchens for a long time, but there are reasons cooks have been adopting new ones. Talk to anyone with even second- or third-hand training in Japanese cutting techniques, and they'll probably say they're not going back.

Sharp knives may be an object of fetishism (yeah, they're pretty cool). But their real value is that they support a range of techniques that allow you to prep food better. Meaning, more efficiently and with better results. A knife with 18 degree bevels sharpened by machine will do as good a job as any at cutting potato batonettes (even if takes a bit more effort than using a sharper knife). But it probably won't allow you to cut herbs several hours before serving, or to cut raw fish with a glassy-smooth finish that will retain perfect texture, or to make consistent, paper thin bias slices of skirt steak, or to cut apples and pears that won't turn brown.

And sharp knives with hard edges will retain this performance for many hours of continuous use ... handy for pros, or for people like me who'd rather leave the house once in a while than hang out with a muddy table full of waterstones.

The price of a thin, hard edge is that it's fragile. The good news it that the techniques it supports are delicate ones, so you won't run into too much trouble. This does generally mean owning a heavier knife for the rough stuff. And making a few other concessions to specialization (like a bread knife), which I tend to resist unless the payoff is pretty obvious.

Edited January 29, 2009 by paulraphael (log)

[LBNoble]

I can't believe this thread has gone to 2 pages. I f you cut an appreciable amount of bread, it would seem to be worthwhile to use a proper knife-like a serrated Mac. I also have a long serrated Spyderco utility, if I were really obsessive, I'd get a Gude. In the meantime, I prefer to save my other knives for other tasks-it's not that they couldn't handle it, it's just that it's not what they're best suited for-the right tool for the right job...

[Peter the eater]

Note the lack of a surname on that knife.  Maybe it was really a Jacques Chirac knife.  That would explain the quality. . .

OK, that was unexpected -- coffee is in my nose from laughter.

It could be a Jacques Cousteau knife for sawing/prying open oysters.

As far as serrated knives are concerned, I have two long ones -- one coarse and the other fine -- and I use them all the time. Sure, I could live without them but they do a damn fine job.

[Fat Guy]

Another issue is the difficulty of sharpening serrated knives. Most people don't even bother, so over time they become duller and duller and rip and shred more and more. Then again most people don't bother to sharpen regular knives either.

[paulraphael]

Another issue is the difficulty of sharpening serrated knives. Most people don't even bother, so over time they become duller and duller and rip and shred more and more. Then again most people don't bother to sharpen regular knives either.

←

Supposedly, scalloped knives like the mac are reasonable to sharpen. I'll find out when it needs to be done. So far it's lasted a couple of years without losing its ability to cut cleanly.

[Fat Guy]

Tonight I had the privilege of cutting one of the crustiest loaves of bread imaginable: the sourdough produced by the French Culinary Institute's professional bread-baking class. This stuff was so crusty I was afraid no metal object would be a match for it, not even the Pepin "Shredder" model depicted above. Because the loaf had a lot of structure, it was easy to get slices started with my 8" Sabatier chef's knife. I cut about eight slices of bread, some with the Sabatier and some with each of two serrated knives (the Pepin knife and what I'm told is a first-rate bread knife from Geo. Wostenholm & Son, Sheffield). It is slightly -- not much, but slightly -- easier to get the cut started with the serrated knives. But the slices you get with the chef's knife are far, far cleaner and produce a fraction of the crumbs. This was as true of the fancy Sheffield serrated knife as is is of the cheapo one. I will try to do this experiment again, with photographs, next time I get the right loaf of bread and a little time.

[Peter the eater]

The very sharpest knife in my house is a Grohmann fish knife. Ever since I took the eGullet course on Knife Maintenance and Sharpening and read Chad Ward's book, it's been a screaming sharp knife. It can pass through a loaf of bread like nobody's business when it's stropped and honed, but after a while it struggles and snags -- especially if the bread is steamy. Serrated knives are more crumbly cutters but I feel they're also more consistent.

I also use my meat cutter for dense loaves, very thin and very regular slices.

[weinoo]

I'm wondering if slicing is being done, vs. cutting. With my Mac bread knife, the first cut is done with downward forward pressure; once the crust is breeched, then a sawing motion is used...I can't imagine getting better slices from a chef's knife on any loaf of bread.

Do they use chef's knives to cut bread at the FCI?

[Fat Guy]

Beats me. I just take the free bread when I pass by the baking classroom. I've never seen them cut it or even bake it. Maybe this guy knows the answer. But I assume pretty much everybody uses a serrated knife to cut bread. When I started this topic it was because I felt I might be alone in my preference for a chef's knife. Although, I think long ago Ed Behr wrote something about this. Unfortunately, his stuff isn't computer searchable.

[Octaveman]

Did I miss somewhere that you had a reversed scalloped bread knife? I only saw the pic of saw you have. The reversed scalloped version really makes a huge difference in performance compared to the other type.

[Fat Guy]

I don't have a MAC bread knife. My best bread knife has big square teeth -- I'll take a photo soon. While I would I'm sure appreciate a MAC bread knife (or Shun utility knife, or whatever) if I had the task of cutting slices of bread every day for a restaurant full of people, I'm rarely cutting bread for more than a couple of people. So the justification for a MAC bread knife would have to be quite strong for me to feel the need to buy one. I've certainly used a MAC bread knife and, while it's a great serrated knife -- better than the ones I own -- I don't think it necessarily cut bread as cleanly as a chef's knife. So I'm not sure why I'd want to have one.

[slkinsey]

Here's an other question: Is "clean slices" necessarily a desirable quality? I, for example, usually prefer the surface of my bread to be somewhere between slightly and highly irregular (nothing is sadder than an English muffin cut with a straight edge).

[lperry]

I also have a question. I usually cut bread that is hot or at least warm, and the two or three times I tried to cut it with a regular straight edge knife because the serrated was out of reach, it tore and crushed and made a mess. The serrated knife cuts warm, steamy bread beautifully. Are you getting clean cuts on hot bread?