Which organic foods make sense?

[RunBe4UFly]

Looking at isles of organic foods in the supermarket nowadays, I keep wondering which organic foods really make sense? They are double the price of the regular product but are they really worth the price? If they are, which ones?

[HungryC]

Deciding which ones matter to you is a highly individual thing. I generally buy organic carrots, potatoes, and other root vegetables, based on the thought that the root veggies have prolonged direct soil contact...increasing the potential pesticide/herbicide/synthetic fertilizer load of the veggie.

[slkinsey]

Keep in mind that "organic" doesn't equal "no herbicides, pesticides or antifungals." It just means that you have to use "naturally occurring or derived" herbicides, pesticides or antifungals. Copper sulfate, for example.

It's not often difficult to identify the produce that has not been treated with herbicides, pesticides or antifungals of any kind. First of all, these won't be found in the "organic section" of your local supermarket. Second, they will usually show evidence of having been eaten by pests, attacked by funguses or various other blights, etc. The stuff that looks more or less the same as the "regular" produce, but just costs twice as much? That stuff was treated with herbicides, pesticides and antifungals.

[purplechick]

The majority of my organic purchases are animal products. I like organic free range meats because they taste better, not to mention the fact that it's nicer to think of them having been happy animals. I also try to buy organic butter, milk and eggs. In general, I figure the higher up something is in the food chain, the more important it is to buy organic.

[Batard]

I think foods down the food chain need consideration too. As far as produce goes, there are some fruits and vegetables that are much more likely to contain pesticides than others. The following list is compiled from results obtained by the USDA and the Environmental Working Group.

1. Nectarines – 97.3% (97.3% of all nectarines tested contained measurable pesticides)

2. Celery – 94.5%

3. Pears – 94.4%

4. Peaches – 93.7%

5. Apples – 91%

6. Cherries – 91%

7. Strawberries – 90%

8. Imported Grapes – 86%

9. Spinach – 83.4%

10. Potatoes – 79.3%

11. Bell Peppers – 68%

12. Red Raspberries – 59%

[daisy17]

I agree that it's a very personal decision. After much reading about the topic I strongly prefer to buy milk from grass-fed, hormone-free, antibiotic free cows and eggs from hormone/antibiotic free chickens. I also like to consume locally-produced food, so I mostly buy Ronnybrook or Sky Top Farms milk. Sky Top is my new favorite food find - their milk and yogurt are divine. Fresh and good. You can absolutely taste the difference.

[E.S.James]

I believe water content may be a good measure to consider. I don't buy strictly organic and try to grow my own when the seasons permit, but H2O is what comes to my mind in the produce aisle.

Think about it: The food plant drinks in a lot of its weight, hence growth, through its roots. Soil soaked in God-knows-what is bound to leach in and yield a lot of that muck into the produce. I would note that Celery is No. 2 on the above list of items most likely to contain pesticides.

Although a good point is made in another post as well, about root vegetables & soil contact.

BTW, after reading and leafing through for quite some time, I just joined eGullet - and am glad I did.

[mjc]

Buying organic at the supermarket makes sense, but not too much. Most of the organic products are going are likely going to come from massive industrial-organic farms and have been shipped all of the country.

What makes more sense is to buy products from local producers--people who you can meet. I think it's worth the premium for these products.

[slkinsey]

Exactly, Mike. Small farm is WAY more important than organic in my book. purplechick, small local farms are a much better indicator of the way the animals have been treated than organic. daisy17, it is against the law to give hormones to chickens.

Batard, the EWG's list and the recommendation to "buy these organic" fails to account for several things. Most notably, the fact that plenty of organic fruits and vegetables are treated with organic pesticides (many of the allowable ones being far more dangerous than the synthesized ones). And, no less significantly, that "measurable pesticides" does not equal "present in meaningful quantities." It is especially noteworthy that the list makes no differentiation as to the relative "badness" of the pesticides identified (most likely because, whenever actual doctors and epidemiologists have been interviewed about the amounts and kinds of pesticides found, they say that the amounts are far too minute to be any concern). In addition, the way the list is presented is misleading. It is not the case that strawberries at 90% have nine times more pesticides than some vegetable that rates out at 10%. It just means that they were able to detect some measurable quantity of pesticides on 9 out of every 10 strawberries. It could very well be the case that some fruit that they rate at 20% has a much higher concentration of pesticides on that 20% than the concentration present on worse-rated strawberries.

[Fat Guy]

There are a lot of lists around the web that prioritize organic need, for example this one. Whether they are credible is an open question, especially given that there's little if any evidence that organic products are better for you at all. That being said, I do buy some organic products. I'm probably wasting my money, but I buy organic eggs and milk, and most of the meat I buy is "naturally raised" or some variant. Fruits and vegetables, I don't bother paying double for inferior organic merchandise.

[purplechick]

Buying organic at the supermarket makes sense, but not too much.  Most of the organic products are going are likely going to come from massive industrial-organic farms and have been shipped all of the country. 

What makes more sense is to buy products from local producers--people who you can meet.  I think it's worth the premium for these products.

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I completely agree. I am lucky enough to live very close to a wonderful Farmers' Market (it's actually closer than the supermarket!). Anyway, we buy everything we can there including most of our meat. The only time I go to the supermarket is for staples like oatmeal, flour, salt, etc. and some out of season things like lettuce in January and so forth.

I don't think that many of the purveyors at the Farmers' Market are actually "certified" organic but you can talk with them about how they raise their animals, some even have photos of their farms on display. I would much rather buy from them than a giant impersonal operation, even if it is certified organic.

This leads into a discussion of what organic "certification" means. I admit I haven't kept up on it, but I understand that at one point it was pretty complex. Are we still using the California certification or is there a Federal one yet? Does organic automatically mean free range? I don't think it does. For me, buying meat that is free range is as important (if not more so) than buying organic.

[daisy17]

Buying organic at the supermarket makes sense, but not too much.  Most of the organic products are going are likely going to come from massive industrial-organic farms and have been shipped all of the country. 

What makes more sense is to buy products from local producers--people who you can meet.  I think it's worth the premium for these products.

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I agree with this as well. Supporting local growers is essential. I prioritize local over organic, and I ask questions at the farmer's market about growing and spraying practices. Many small farms can't afford (or don't want to deal with) crazy federal regulations to get an "organic" label, but that doesn't mean you can't get comfortable with how they're growing your food.

While I prefer locally produced eggs and milk, I really don't want hormones and antibiotics in my food. Period. Meat too.

[lutefisky]

I personally prefer inorganic food....water, salt, iron. The next step beyond veganism .

[Magictofu]

Even supermarket organic food has to follow minimal standards. While it is probably true that there are farmers and firms that only follow the very minimum to obtain their certification, I would argue that even this small step is a good one.

I never understood why so many people always talk about nutrients and pesticide residue when they talk about organic food... it seems like a very minor issue compared to the wider environmental and animal welfare benefits.

I tend to prefer organic eggs, dairy and meat over fruits, vegetables and grains because of the animal welfare benefits (and often taste benefits) but will always pick organic produces when the price difference is not too large.

[slkinsey]

Magictofu: What makes you think that there are necessarily animal welfare benefits to meats that are labeled "organic?" There is nothing preventing someone from raising "organic" chickens in a battery farm every bit as odious as Tyson's, so long as the chickens are fed "organic" feed.

[lutefisky]

In addition to buying locally, be a promoter. Form a group and talk to some farmers. Convince your local growers to go organic, and provide them with the consumers they need to make the change profitable to them.

k

[Magictofu]

Magictofu:  What makes you think that there are necessarily animal welfare benefits to meats that are labeled "organic?"  There is nothing preventing someone from raising "organic" chickens in a battery farm every bit as odious as Tyson's, so long as the chickens are fed "organic" feed.

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Because all the certification standards I am aware of prescribe minimal animal welfare standards. Here's an excerp from one of the certification organization (ecocert Canada) that I see very often around where I live:

For poultry, production in cages is prohibited. Poultry shall be reared in open range conditions and have free run access to the open air when weather permits. Buildings shall provide a space covered with bedding straw, wood shavings or sand. For laying hens, there shall be enough floor space reserved for manure collection. The birds shall have access to perches or rest areas as well as openings to outside runs in proportion to their species and flock size. Buildings shall be emptied and exercise runs left to rest to ensure the renewal of plant life between flocks.

(http://www.ecocertcanada.com/eng/RABAN_E_2009.pdf)

There might be cases when dubious certification organizations have no similar standards but since the label organic is increasingly reglemented by government worldwide, I assume, perhaps wrongly, that such organizations are rare.

[Magictofu]

Section 3 of the OCIA International Certification Standards document is also prescribing minimal welfare standards (link)

[slkinsey]

That's not too different from the USDA code:

§ 205.239  Livestock living conditions.

(a) The producer of an organic livestock operation must establish and maintain livestock living conditions which accommodate the health and natural behavior of animals, including:

(1) Access to the outdoors, shade, shelter, exercise areas, fresh air, and direct sunlight suitable to the species, its stage of production, the climate, and the environment;

(2) Access to pasture for ruminants;

(3) Appropriate clean, dry bedding. If the bedding is typically consumed by the animal species, it must comply with the feed requirements of §205.237;

(4) Shelter designed to allow for:

(i) Natural maintenance, comfort behaviors, and opportunity to exercise;

(ii) Temperature level, ventilation, and air circulation suitable to the species; and

(iii) Reduction of potential for livestock injury;

(b) The producer of an organic livestock operation may provide temporary confinement for an animal because of:

(1) Inclement weather;

(2) The animal's stage of production;

(3) Conditions under which the health, safety, or well being of the animal could be jeopardized; or

(4) Risk to soil or water quality.

© The producer of an organic livestock operation must manage manure in a manner that does not contribute to contamination of crops, soil, or water by plant nutrients, heavy metals, or pathogenic organisms and optimizes recycling of nutrients.

But there is plenty of room in both sets of criteria for pretty dismal animal welfare. Again, small farm is likely to be much more important than organic certification or labeling. I think the general rule of thumb is that, if it comes from a megagrower, it's probably not great. I'd feel much better about the welfare of chickens I bought from a not-organic farmer who maintains a flock of around 100 animals than I would the welfare of certified organic chickens raised on a megafarm.

[Florida]

Are organic foods "better?" Yes and no.

In general organic foods result in less harm to the environment. Does this make your organic carrot "better?" Probably not, but it really depends on what you mean by "better" or "worth it"

Personally, I'm of the belief organic has become little more than a marketing term, though I will admit there are some products, most notably milk, that I will only buy organic. Plus I do believe organic is generally "better," if for no other reason than the environmental impact.

I think the future of farming is sustainability. Locally grown. Free range animals. Grass fed beef. Joing CFA's and getting to know your farmer. Accepting the fact that not all fruits and veggies are going to look like their starring in a TV commercial, but also accepting that some (and I stress some) pesticides or fertilizer is okay as well.

If you are really interested in the subject, might I suggest Michael Pollan's Ominivore's Dilemma which is a very good book on the subject.

[mjc]

Because all the certification standards I am aware of prescribe minimal animal welfare standards. Here's an excerp from one of the certification organization (ecocert Canada) that I see very often around where I live:

I've never been to an industrial organic farm or an industrial farm, but have seen plenty of pictures and read a lot about them. I've been to quite a few small "local" farms. While there might be standards for animal welfare in the organic certification rules, these rules are not really that great. Probably industrial organic animals are somewhat better off than their non-organic counterparts. You really don't know, because they don't show you any pictures and you can't really visit. If you compare how a small local farmer that you meet and talk to is raising their animals to an industrial organic operation you will likely see a world of difference. Its one thing for an animal to "have access" to the outdoors, its another form them to live outdoors and have access to shelter.

A lot of small farmers are not certified organic, because they want to reserve the right to give their animals antibiotics if they get a bacterial infection. In all other ways their raising/care for their animals may far exceed any minimal "standards" to be labeled organic.

[Magictofu]

There is an interesting table comparing the different standards for raising chicken in the UK (Europe?) on Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstal's Chicken Out website: link

I will never argue that you can't find anything better from a small local farms but the organic standards are the only ones that we have appart from national standards that applies to everyone. Livestock on a small farms can be badly treated if no one is there to enforce some minimal rules. If you know or trust a small local farmer that is willing to provide you with meat I agree that you are probably better off but in the absence of such relationship, organic labels are extremely useful.

[Florida]

I will never argue that you can't find anything better from a small local farms but the organic standards are the only ones that we have appart from national standards that applies to everyone. Livestock on a small farms can be badly treated if no one is there to enforce some minimal rules. If you know or trust a small local farmer that is willing to provide you with meat I agree that you are probably better off but in the absence of such relationship, organic labels are extremely useful.

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Agreed

[purplechick]

Are organic foods "better?"  Yes and no.

In general organic foods result in less harm to the environment.  Does this make your organic carrot "better?"  Probably not, but it really depends on what you mean by "better" or "worth it"

Personally, I'm of the belief organic has become little more than a marketing term, though I will admit there are some products, most notably milk, that I will only buy organic.  Plus I do believe organic is generally "better," if for no other reason than the environmental impact.

I've often wondered the same thing Florida. Recently I read this article about a doctor who ate only organic foods for three years. He says that he feels healthier and is sick less often, etc. Who knows?

[mjc]

I think this article from the NYT is pretty relevant to this thread: It's Organic, but Does That Mean It's Safer?

The article talks about the imperfect system of organic certification and raises the possibility of corruption in the system. According to the article, since organic certification agencies are paid by their clients, its in their best interests to certify and maintain certification of these customers.

I think this article really supports the notion that just because something is organic doesn't mean its necessarily great or safe, the safest food to eat is probably the food that comes from a place that you can certify yourself.