Service in NYC Restaurants

[weinoo]

I think everyone agrees that service is a major component of a meal when dining out. As a matter of fact, I've often thought that I'll go back to a restaurant if the food isn't necessarily the greatest, but the service is. However, I usually will not return to a restaurant if the service is downright bad - not talking snafus here, but unwelcoming and/or just plain bad.

In NYC, perhaps (I'm guessing) the best service model is the one promoted by Danny Meyer in all of his restaurants - I've had nothing but very good service at his places ranging from Blue Smoke to Gramercy Tavern to EMP.

The McNally service experience, in my opinion, is pretty good too - at least at the places I dine most frequently (i.e. Schiller's and Balthazar).

The Hanson experience (oh wait, I don't eat at his restaurants).

Now, the main reason I'm posting about this is because the other night my dining companion and I went to a notable, newly opened restaurant for the second time. We were a bit early for our dinner reservation, and we were invited by the hostess to have a drink at the bar, where there were really no seats available (and by the way, if you've got your coat or pocketbook on a seat that you're not saving for someone, you're a rude douchebag). Anyway, this restaurant has a small table in the front near the hostess stand, at which a principle and a high-level employee were seated. Made no attempt to get up and offer PAYING CUSTOMERS a seat. That, to me, is shitty service. And it kind of runs through most, if not all, of the restaurants this principle is associated with. It just pissed me off - and since the food didn't move us like it did on our first visit, I guess we wont be returning.

But really, dudes - don't customers deserve seats?

Anyway, agree or disagree - where's the best and worst service to be had?

[Pan]

What restaurant was that? Please post in another thread with a link, if you like, but I'd like to know.

[daisy17]

The Hanson experience (oh wait, I don't eat at his restaurants).

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Oh, that cracked me up.

To me, Danny Meyer is the gold standard in service - professional, knowledgeable, warm, enthusiastic. You don't have to be a celebrity to be treated well at his restaurants.

I agree that service is a major component of a meal. It can make it or break it, period. I dined solo at the bar at Incanto in SF (off topic geographically, but it stands out in my mind) a couple of weeks ago and while there was nothing "wrong" with the service per se, it lacked interest and warmth and felt dismissive to me. So while the food was pretty damned good, I walked away unsatisfied.

I need to think a bit about examples. One thing that I really enjoy service-wise is when the staff mirrors your enthusiasm for the food. Per Se comes to mind - I was just overjoyed at being there, and that was validated by the level of service we received. I've always similarly enjoyed the staff at Momofuku Ssam and Noodle Bar. Ko when it first opened - not as much. Really affects my meal.

Edited January 22, 2009 by daisy17 (log)

[weinoo]

What restaurant was that? Please post in another thread with a link, if you like, but I'd like to know.

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Oh, I like leaving 'em guessing.

It's in the MPD, if that helps.

[Sneakeater]

Interestingly, every time I've been to what is obviously that Mystery Restaurant, that table has been occupied by high-level staff or friends thereof. I guess they think it's their table. (To be fair to them, I can see how they might wrongly think it would be unattractive to customers, given its placement.)

(Since they've gone out of their way to be nice to me -- although in a way that often turned out to be bumbling -- I'm not gonna name that place, either.)

Edited January 22, 2009 by Sneakeater (log)

[weinoo]

Interestingly, every time I've been to what is obviously that Mystery Restaurant, that table has been occupied by high-level staff or friends thereof.  I guess they think it's their table.  (To be fair to them, I can see how they might wrongly think it would be unattractive to customers, given its placement.)

(Since they've gone out of their way to be nice to me -- although in a way that often turned out to be bumbling -- I'm not gonna name that place, either.)

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Such a diplomat, Sneak . I still think that if there are people waiting to be seated, and there's no room at the bar, that table is better than standing. Besides, then you can joust with the host/hostess as she/he is trying to hang up coats.

I also don't like it when one is made to feel like they're intruding on a private party.

[Sneakeater]

I agree with you.

As for the private party, though, I'd say that restaurant group's whole style is based on creating the atmosphere of a private party (which is why I tend to avoid their places).

[Sneakeater]

But you know, now that I think of it, this cuts all kinds of ways.

Recently, at Scarpetta (I'll name that place), I was pissed off at a guy who was told to wait at the bar rather than being permitted to go to his table, when he sat at the bar waiting for his date without ordering anything to drink. I snagged the very last available bar seat for my dinner; but for that one seat's being open, I'd have been unable to eat there that night as a walk-in. I thought it was nervy of that guy to fill up a scarce and valuable seat without ordering anything.

When I told some friends about this, though, they said I was wrong to be upset with the guy. He was told to wait at the bar. Why should he have to stand up just because he didn't want to drink anything, when they wouldn't seat him at his table until his party was complete?

Edited January 22, 2009 by Sneakeater (log)

[oakapple]

I've had several mildly disappointing experiences at Joe Bastianich's places lately—not enough to make me give them up, but there's a pattern:

At Casa Mono, they would not seat me until my girlfriend arrived. Unfortunately, there's nowhere to stand at Casa Mono. The hostess told me I was in the way, and asked me to go next door for a drink at Bar Jamon. But I had just come from Bar Jamon. There wasn't any room there either.

At Babbo, likewise they would not seat me until my girlfriend arrived. Just like Casa Mono, there is basically nowhere to wait if the bar is full—as it was on this occasion. The attitude here was less excusable, partly because Babbo is a three-star restaurant, and higher expectations go with that. In addition, this was relatively early and most of the tables were not yet full, so seating me would not have taken a table away from someone else.

At Felidia, we arrived simultaneously and were seated immediately. But at the end of the meal, the server said he needed the table, and invited us to have a drink at the bar. I didn't time the meal, but I did not feel we lingered longer than is appropriate at this level of dining. Actually, I didn't feel we had lingered much at all. It is the first time I have ever been asked to leave a table at a 3-star restaurant. What is worse, the offer of a drink was apparently not serious. We were left to fend for ourselves, and when we got to the bar it was packed 2-3 deep. There obviously was no complementary drink, and in any case it wouldn't have been very pleasant.

Of course, I do understand that Bastianich is blessed with some of the busiest and most popular restaurants in town, and he is trying to squeeze in as many diners as he can. But I do feel he ought to do better, especially at the three-star places.

Edited January 22, 2009 by oakapple (log)

[Sneakeater]

Part of the problem -- as I think you pointed out in your blog review of Babbo -- is that restaurant bars are in a transitional period. They're moving out of their old standard usage as holding pens for people waiting for tables and moving into a new standard usage of dining spots for walk-ins.

So it seems wrong for the Babbo staff to have refused to seat you until your party was complete when they must know as well as everybody else that their bar is usually completely filled by people having dinner there.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Sneakeater (log)

[LPShanet]

What restaurant was that? Please post in another thread with a link, if you like, but I'd like to know.

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Oh, I like leaving 'em guessing.

It's in the MPD, if that helps.

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Sounds like EVERY restaurant in the Meatpacking in some ways:) Can't think of many that aren't longer on attitude than substance, although there are a few.

On a more positive note, I've had very good experiences at two Farmerie restaurants lately, Monday Room (which always has great service), and Double Crown (which didn't need to have good service, given its trendiness, but went above and beyond to be nice, helpful and hospitable). I expect exemplary service from the really high end spots, but when places a tier below them in terms of price and formality go out of their way, it makes me take notice.

[Pan]

But you know, now that I think of it, this cuts all kinds of ways.

Recently, at Scarpetta (I'll name that place), I was pissed off at a guy who was told to wait at the bar rather than being permitted to go to his table, when he sat at the bar waiting for his date without ordering anything to drink.  I snagged the very last available bar seat for my dinner; but for that one seat's being open, I'd have been unable to eat there that night as a walk-in.  I thought it was nervy of that guy to fill up a scarce and valuable seat without ordering anything.

When I told some friends about this, though, they said I was wrong to be upset with the guy.  He was told to wait at the bar.  Why should he have to stand up just because he didn't want to drink anything, when they wouldn't seat him at his table until his party was complete?

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I agree with your friends. Just the same, I generally would order something to drink in that situation.

[Sneakeater]

Of course, I came around to see that my friends were right, too.

Moreover, by feeling compelled to order something in that situation, you're giving the restaurant an incentive to continue this practice by giving it precisely what it hoped to get by instituting it.

Clearly, the restaurant is at fault here, not the customer.

(I have no problem when restaurants that don't take reservations refuse to seat you until your party is complete. I do have a problem when restaurants that take reservations impose that requirement on people that in fact have reservations.)

Edited January 23, 2009 by Sneakeater (log)

[oakapple]

Of course, I came around to see that my friends were right, too.

Moreover, by feeling compelled to order something in that situation, you're giving the restaurant an incentive to continue this practice by giving it precisely what it hoped to get by instituting it.

Clearly, the restaurant is at fault here, not the customer.

(I have no problem when restaurants that don't take reservations refuse to seat you until your party is complete.  I do have a problem when restaurants that take reservations impose that requirement on people that in fact have reservations.)

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I have mixed feelings about the "no-incomplete parties" rule. It certainly brands the restaurant as "low-end" in my book, and therefore I was offended to find that policy at Babbo. But at truly low-end places, even those that take reservations, the policy makes some sense—and not just for the restaurant. At a busy place, it may make sense to give priority to diners who are ready to use the table, rather than those who are going to sit around and wait for one or more companions who may not show up, or who may be hideously late, thereby throwing the restaurant's reservation book into chaos. For instance, the restaurant may allocate a 4-top for a party of 3, and then the third never shows up, and it turns out the remaining couple could have been more efficiently allocated a 2-top. It affects not just the restaurant, but others who hoped or planned to dine there that evening.

In other words, this policy not only helps the restaurant get more yield out of its tables, but at very busy places it also means that more diners who want to eat there can be accommodated. Of course, some restaurants adopt the policy for less admirable reasons. If they are clearly not busy, then routing you to the bar could just be a ploy to get you to buy an extra beverage you wouldn't have otherwise ordered.

[SobaAddict70]

Hm, I'd have to say Estiatorio Milos for the worst. Food and service combined.

*Busboys taking plates with food on them;

*We felt rushed throughout;

*Orders were confused when it came time to serve. This was for a two-top.

*Does it speak well for the restaurant when the only thing they do well are the mezzes?

*Arctic char was bland. Roast chicken was a bit undercooked. And I'm sorry, but I don't expect scallops to contain gristle when I bite into them.

Best is difficult to pick out. I'm tempted to say EMP but there are so many others to choose from.

Edited to add: Falai (the restaurant, not the bakery) ties Estiatorio Milos for worst.

Polenta, chicken livers, dried dates, wild mushrooms, 15 year old aceto balsamico tradizionale.

This was supposed to be one of the mandatories. You could have served me cardboard bruschetta and that would have had more character.

Green pea tagliatelle, fava beans, zucchini flowers, black truffles.

Too much preciousness for its own good. The truffles overwhelmed everything, even the fava beans.

Branzino wrapped in potato, leeks, white asparagus, huckleberry sauce.

It's difficult to make asparagus flavorless but somehow, mission accomplished. This dish practically cried out for salt or acid or something. Alas, there was none to be had.

They're charging midtown prices in a downtown setting. For $130, I shouldn't have to pay for mediocrity. Even the food (as blah as it was) could've been forgiven were it not for the service.

*It took forever to get the check....even with the hostess and server standing not five paces to my left.

*There was a slathering of attitude as if I was a rube New Yorker. I found that a tad off-putting. Be hospitable, not haughty.

Edited January 23, 2009 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[Fat Guy]

Service is an incredibly complex issue, so it might make sense to parse the subject a bit.

One issue is what I would call quantity of service. There are some things that as a practical matter are difficult if not impossible to accomplish without a certain number of servers per customer and a multi-tiered service hierarchy. Cheese service, any kind of gueridon service, decanting of wine, etc. All other things being equal, the restaurant with the most generous server:customer ratio is going to be the top performer.

Then there is style of service. There are a number of schools of service that I think are equally valid. The Danny Meyer/Four Seasons school is probably the most appealing to a broad base of diners, and can offer a strong personal connection that is right for contemporary American tastes. There's a California-ish school of service that is a sibling of this egalitarian, casual-but-professional approach and, indeed, a large number of the better modern American restaurants offer service in this style. The Michelin three-star European school of service is quite different, but equally wonderful when properly implemented. The classically oriented French restaurants in America have their own hybrid of European and New World service that is probably my least favorite approach, but can also be effective when implemented well. But a lot of this comes down to personal preference: I know people who can't stand the informality of Danny Meyer restaurants, and who would much rather be at an Old New York French place. Then there are the various informal service styles of the restaurants with less quantity of service than the three- and four-star average. These styles of service are usually built around a single server per table, with perhaps some support from runners, bussers and a small management team. If that server happens to be superb and not overtaxed, magic can still happen. But as a system it is less reliable than the higher-end team approaches.

And of course there's quality of service, loosely defined as how well a given restaurant's service staff lives up to the system that's in place. (The notion of consistency is front and center here.)

[BryanZ]

It's further important to remember, however, that quantity of service does not inherently equal quality of service by any means. This is especially true in NYC where you might get a different and oft-unintelligible runner dropping off your food with each course. I don't expect a captain to coddle me-- though I admit I don't mind it--but with too many servers any kind of interaction with anyone on the floor feels forced. The ideal service situation for me is when I feel like I'm being "hosted" rather than "served." Whether it's a personable backwaiter or the restaurant's GM, someone should place an interest in each table.

By further extension, the higher the pricepoint, the higher the expectation. Not to drag this off-topic, but that's why some people are left cold by Daniel. The service is technically very sound and there are surely many bodies on the floor, but the scale and club-like atmosphere seems to leave some tables (relatively) neglected. Furthermore, it's widely acknowledged that the place sometimes shows something of an "attitude." This may be part of the restaurant's mystique or character, but I remember one time I left the restaurant without a "thank you" from either of the untaxed folks at the host stand. A slight oversight like this would be fine at a Momofuku but not at a four-star establishment.

[oakapple]

There's a California-ish school of service that is a sibling of this egalitarian, casual-but-professional approach and, indeed, a large number of the better modern American restaurants offer service in this style.

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Can you elaborate on this? I have never heard of a California style of service.

[Fat Guy]

"My name is Bill and I'll be your server this evening" is, as I understand it, the cornerstone of the California school of New American service. Just as California cuisine rejects a lot of the formality of European (especially French) cuisine, California service is very egalitarian and casual. It incorporates the notion that servers are not servants. Both the food and service out of California have been very influential in the rest of the US over the past few decades.

[tim]

Hi,

What has happened to the haughty old school model of service in New York's fine dining establishments? Are there no restaurants left who leave you feeling guilty about your total lack of sophistication?

I suspect this is a concept that was thankfully expunged in the 1970's.

Unfortunately, that model is now copied and a few celebrated restaurants in the Midwest with sometimes humorous outcomes. At Tony's in St. Louis the service is obsequious to a fault. and the younger waiters whisper apologies (out of fear of being overheard by the Wait Captain) as they mince and pander about your improper knife placement.

In it's heyday, Jean Banchet's wonderful Le Francais had wonderful service and waiters who had a lot of fun and provided lots of laughter for the customers.

Tim

[oakapple]

By further extension, the higher the pricepoint, the higher the expectation.  Not to drag this off-topic, but that's why some people are left cold by Daniel.  The service is technically very sound and there are surely many bodies on the floor, but the scale and club-like atmosphere seems to leave some tables (relatively) neglected. 

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I suppose you could graph it on a 3-dimensional axis: quality, quantity and consistency. At its best, service at Daniel is better than at Eleven Madison Park. But there seems to be a wide variation at Daniel between who gets their best effort, and who does not. At EMP, the highs and lows operate between much narrower bands, and it is highly unlikely that any customer would ever feel neglected.

[oakapple]

What has happened to the haughty old school model of service in New York's fine dining establishments?  Are there no restaurants left who leave you feeling guilty about your total lack of sophistication?

I suspect this is a concept that was thankfully expunged in the 1970's.

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Well...some people claim Daniel is still doing it, though I personally did not have that reaction. Maybe I just got lucky, or maybe they mistakenly took me for a more sophisticated person than I am.

[sethd]

What has happened to the haughty old school model of service in New York's fine dining establishments?  Are there no restaurants left who leave you feeling guilty about your total lack of sophistication?

I suspect this is a concept that was thankfully expunged in the 1970's.

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Well...some people claim Daniel is still doing it, though I personally did not have that reaction. Maybe I just got lucky, or maybe they mistakenly took me for a more sophisticated person than I am.

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I think Le Bernardin and Per Se have the best service in the city with Jean Georges just a neck behind.

[weinoo]

I think Le Bernardin and Per Se have the best service in the city with Jean Georges just a neck behind.

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Gotta say Ms. Le Coze knows how to run a restaurant.

[purplechick]

I think Le Bernardin and Per Se have the best service in the city with Jean Georges just a neck behind.

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Le Bernardin and Per Se were the two I was going to post about!

I also agree with Fat Guy that it is very complex. I think your satisfaction at a particular restaurant depends on what you were expecting. For example, I love Danny Meyer's service but it is not really fair to compare it to Le Bernardin and Per Se who are more in the very old style French vein.

A quick story about Le Bernardin: My husband and I were there for our anniversary. When we were ordering dessert he was torn between two choices and asked a few questions of the waiter before deciding. As we were waiting for dessert to arrive, I pulled out a silly card I had gotten him for the occasion. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw the waiter emerge from the kitchen with our desserts. He took one look at the table and turned right around again through the swinging doors.

Once the card was opened, smiled about and put away, he came out with dessert and said, "Monsieur, is it your birthday?" We told him it was our anniversary and he congratulated us. Not 30 seconds later he appeared at the table presenting the dessert that my husband had decided against, with a candle in it, and saying "Happy Anniversary!"

That, is good service.