Crash Course in Japanese knives

[Starkman]

Hello all,

In that I am looking to purchase a few kitchen knives, and in that Japanese knives are more recognized, can someone point me in the right direction as to how to obtain a crash course knowledge of these knives?

I've seen a lot of Japanese terms, styles and models mentioned, but it's very difficult to distinguish amoung these terms to know which is which. And then there's the different methods and manufacturing processes to consider.

Help! Where can I find information that is succint, to the point and won't take reading a 500 disseration just to get an idea what's going on in this field? (Internet resources area the welcomed priority, and then books.)

Thanks,

Starkman

[whatsaMcGee]

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/

[Octaveman]

http://www.korin.com/knives/knife_jp.php

http://www.korin.com/knives/knife_western.php

http://www.korin.com/knives/knife_steel.php

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/809833/

Edited December 27, 2008 by Octaveman (log)

[Peterh]

foodieforums.com has a lot of good information, too. Here's my try at a quick summary:

- Japanese knives tend to be made with harder steel. This lets them be thinner and ground with a more acute angle so that people may say they are "sharper".

- The harder steel lets them stay sharper longer. However, they can be chipped by cutting hard things like bones and frozen food.

- Sharpening is different. The harder steel requires different stones, and techniques and angles are different because of more acute or one-sided edges. Definitely don't use the thing on the back of the can opener.

- Traditional edges are one-sided, or single-bevel, like a chisel: \| , but many Japanese knives you can buy have a more western two-sided, double-bevel edge: \/. I have trouble with the single bevel. It seems strange to me. I'm sure someone who grew up using single-bevel knives would find double-bevel strange and difficult.

- There are lots of purely traditional Japanese knife shapes. I don't understand Japanese cooking techniques enough to even try to explain them.

- There are some westernized knife shapes that are more familiar to me. They still have different names:

Gyuto = "cow sword", closest to western chef's knife

Petty = a "petite" knife that can be used like a small chef's knife, large paring, or utility knife

Santoku = "three virtues" is the darling of TV chefs. It's sort of a like a Guyto or chef's knife but not as pointy. It's supposed to be pointy enough for coring, but also act as a slicer and chopper.

I also like the Nikiri, which is meant for slicing vegetables. It's shaped a little like a knife-like cleaver -- longer than a cleaver, but not as tall from spine to edge.

[dougery]

Wow...

The answer to this question can be quite daunting. The link Octaveman and Whatsamcgee offered to Knifeforums.com is the best resource, but you really need to take your time when going through there. Most posters are pretty good about being objective and accurate, but just be careful, there are some hacks out there as well that could steer you in the wrong direction.

To help point you in the right direction, I would recommend doing research on two types of knives:

* The western style "gyutou" (Western style chefs knife with an asian influence, most visible feature is the lack of a bolster).

* The "petty" knife (about 5" blade length, used as a utility or paring)

Once you've done some research on these styles you can branch out into more specialized knives such as the honesuki (boning knife).

There are so many different types of steel, it could be mind boggling. Some steels can be prone to discoloration or rusting and require higher maintenance than most people expect. Be sure to do ample research into the types of steel.

If you are just looking to get your feet wet without spending too much, Tojiro (found on Korin.com) makes an excellent gyutou. It has a hard high carbon steel core/blade, which is sandwiched between layers of stain resistant steel. These are really good knives for a great price. One note, some reports of inconsistent quality have popped up here or there, but Korin does a great job of backing up their products. Others in EG have written about Togiharu knives, but I'm not too familiar with this line. The steel is a little softer and I prefer my gyutous with a higher HRC (hardness rating).

Welcome to the wonderful world of Japanese knives! WARNING: They are an addiction!

Edited December 27, 2008 by dougery (log)

[dougery]

BTW,

Here is another link to a reliable dealer. Have bought a few Hattori knives through them and their service is excellent. This site also has an excellent tutorial on sharpening:

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/products.html

Japanese knife sharpening is an art form in itself. If you're not familiar with Japanese sharpening stones, I would strongly recommend looking into getting some and practice up on some of your lower quality knives (or buying some at a thrift shop to practice getting the right angles and techniques. Steel quality/hardness won’t be the same, but you can work on your basics). It will require some patience and practice but the end results will easily surpass the results you would get from mechanized sharpeners or sending them to your local cutlery shop. This place has a good selection of quality stones, not to mention some great woodworking tools (Festool power tools, Damascus chisels, etc.!) Another great retailer to do business with.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?s=...r&dept_id=13238

[mrsadm]

Please take your time in picking out a Japanese knife; there is much to know and folks can have really different preferences. If you just want one knife, the recommendation of a Tojiro gyuto is excellent; you won't spend too much money on it, either. Never use a honing steel on it; you can use a ceramic steel however. And learn to sharpen it as well yourself; if you take it to a sharpening place that uses a grinder you can ruin the knife. Good luck!

[Starkman]

Thanks very much for the input, folks. I greatly appreciate it.

Starkman

WAIT!

One more question...

per doughery's statement, "If you're not familiar with Japanese sharpening stones . . . ," I take it the stones with which one sharpens Japanese knives (be they single or dougle bevelled) are NOT the same as ones with which western knives are sharpened?

Thanks again.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Starkman (log)

[ojisan]

An xlnt wealth of info is Chad Ward's book "An Edge in the Kitchen:

http://www.amazon.com/Edge-Kitchen-Ultimat..._pr_product_top

The knifeforums.com site has a wealth of info, but it's daunting to wade thru it, and can be confusing to read between the lines of posts by some of the (opinionated) knife geeks. Having said that, knifeforums.com is where I got my education (including trading posts w/ Mr. Ward), and they are a friendly and forgiving group. Before then, I thought my Dexter cleaver was God's gift to cooking; I now own REALLY good knives (all Japanese-made and all inexpensive) and have even foisted more onto my children as birthday & Xmas gifts.

FWIW, I've purchased all my knives from the aforementioned japanesechefsknife.com (internet commerce at its finest), but Korin also has a solid reputation.

[ojisan]

One more question...

per doughery's statement, "If you're not familiar with Japanese sharpening stones . . . ," I take it the stones with which one sharpens Japanese knives (be they single or dougle bevelled) are NOT the same as ones with which western knives are sharpened?

Thanks again.

←

See what happens? He's already slipping into the dark side....

[Starkman]

See what happens? He's already slipping into the dark side....

←

I am not. I'm not. No, I'm not . . . I'm . . .

My, it's dark in here!

[Peterh]

What's the deal with stones? Most people recommend using Japanese water stones to sharpen. These must be soaked well in water before using. As you sharpen, a slurry forms as you actually erode the stone, wearing it down. I think the advantage of these stones is twofold: 1) they have enough hardness to make an impression on harder steel in Japanese knives, and 2) the erosion or wearing down exposes fresh grit that can continue to do work on your edge. The sharpening stones I grew up with were either coarse and would cut, or fine and wouldn't really cut much. Japanese water stones seem to be able to cut aggressively even with a fine grit.

This means that your stone will start to get "dished" as the middle wears down. You'll need to flatten it again with either a flattening stone or a sheet of wet/dry sandpaper over plate glass.

There are a few different brands of stones like this, including Norton, King, etc. I bought a combination stone (one side fine, the other very fine) from a woodworking store. It's sold as a good stone to use for chisels, planes, and other cutting tools. They'd work great for western knives, too. I think the actual technique would be about the same, just a different angle.

(BTW, I'm very happy with the Tojiro Gyuto I bought from JapaneseChefsKnife.com, even though it was a lower end product for them. Unfortunately, they can't sell them any more.)

Edited December 28, 2008 by Peterh (log)

[Starkman]

Well, I know that I'd like a Gyuto, a 9 incher if they make one. I'd also like a Santuko, but if the Gyuto performs as well on veggies, then I'd pass. Really, I like the all-around aspect of a Gyutoo. I don't need top of the line, and I'd like a CS/SS combo.

I'd like something, too, like a Deba, something that can handle rougher cutting that would put the Gyuto in jeapordy.

As to handles, well, I hate those slick, small plastic kind. I'd like something with a bit of a bite in it to grab a hold of. I've never tired a Japanese handle, so I don't know how they feel.

I've seen ceramic "steels" mentioned to be better than a standard steel, so I'd probably want something along this line as well.

That's about it.

Man, have I been doing the reading, too! I'm learning!

Starkman

[paulraphael]

I'd suggest just getting a gyuto. It will do most things. Get comfortable with it, and then decide what else (if anything) you need. I can't imagine why anyone would have both a gyuto and a santoku, but people do a lot of things that boggle my imagination ...

You need sharpening stones. A good knife is just an ornament without them. It won't even be close to its potential when it's new out of the box. You can start simple, like with a two sided combo stone. By the time you wear it out, maybe sooner, you'll have an idea of what other stones you might want.

Steels are controvercial. I like them, some don't. I find they greatly increase the time between visits to the stones. Fine grained ceramic ones are good, as are smooth ones like the ones sold by handamerican.

The knife has few magic powers of its own; it's a vehicle for your technique ... both cutting technique and sharpening technique. Even if you get an inexpensive japanese knife, like a togiharu, expect to do a lot of growing with it.

When your sharpening and cutting techniques develop, the handle will become irrelevant. You'll hardly touch the handle. Any time you find yourself gripping or slipping, it will be an indication that you're doing something wrong.

I used to be very picky about knife handles. Now that I've started learning better ways to use the knives, I don't notice them anymore. The exception is with things like boning and butchering knives, which you have to grab in a lot of different ways, and use in a more brutish fashion. And which tend to get wet and greasy. With these I like wood handles ... but they don't have to be fancy.

[Jon Savage]

What he said...

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A 240 mm gyuoto, and maybe a petty is all most of us mere mortals need.

[Starkman]

Say, I read somewhere on this site (if I wasn't misunderstanding the post) that it's not good to use glass something-or-other on Japanese knives? Would this have refered to a honing stone or a sharpening stone of some sort?

Thanks,

Starkman

[ojisan]

Say, I read somewhere on this site (if I wasn't misunderstanding the post) that it's not good to use glass something-or-other on Japanese knives? Would this have refered to a honing stone or a sharpening stone of some sort?

Thanks,

Starkman

←

It refers to common folklore that you shouldn't have a glass of single malt Scotch in one hand while wielding a gyuto in the other.

[Octaveman]

Say, I read somewhere on this site (if I wasn't misunderstanding the post) that it's not good to use glass something-or-other on Japanese knives? Would this have refered to a honing stone or a sharpening stone of some sort?

Thanks,

Starkman

←

What you remember probably was referring to glass cutting board or the like. Using a granite counter is also a no no. There are borosilicate (glass) honing rods, steel rods that are glass smooth. There is also a line of glass stones by Shapton but you don't sharpen them on the glass side. The glass provides the plate then they add abrasive to the other side. Although some have tried to sharpen on the smooth glass side, they get nowhere in their endeaver and wonder what their doing wrong. Cracks me up every time I hear a story like this.

[Starkman]

Say, I read somewhere on this site (if I wasn't misunderstanding the post) that it's not good to use glass something-or-other on Japanese knives? Would this have refered to a honing stone or a sharpening stone of some sort?

Thanks,

Starkman

←

What you remember probably was referring to glass cutting board or the like. Using a granite counter is also a no no. There are borosilicate (glass) honing rods, steel rods that are glass smooth. There is also a line of glass stones by Shapton but you don't sharpen them on the glass side. The glass provides the plate then they add abrasive to the other side. Although some have tried to sharpen on the smooth glass side, they get nowhere in their endeaver and wonder what their doing wrong. Cracks me up every time I hear a story like this.

←

Gads! I wouldn't think of using a knife on glass! I thought, however, it did have something to do with a stone, so you've cleared that up.

In the interim—before I get a stone, that is—I'll just have to stick to using the bottom of a ceramic mug!

Thanks,

Starkman