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siberian salmon, sturgeon and glass noodle pie


essvee
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There is a Siberian restaurant in San Francisco name of Cinderella. It makes something it calls pirogi, also Siberian style pie. One version is a baked dish of salmon, sturgeon and glass noodles with puff pastry.

My sister in law grew up eating there with her Siberian grandparents. She really wants me to make this dish for her. I haven't been able to find a recipe. Can anyone help?

Thanking you. essvee

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It's not a pirogi, it's just in that same section of their menu.

http://cinderellabakery.com/cafe_menu.html

From your description, it sounds like a coulibiac, which is a classic old-school French dish derived from a Russian dish. It's not especially Siberian; that may be a bit of 'menu license'. The Frenchification added puff pastry instead of the traditional crust, but a brioche crust also works well. I've never heard of glass noodles in a coulibiac; the classic fillings are fish (usually salmon), rice, mushrooms (often duxelle) and/or hard-boiled egg.

Delia recipe, using frozen puff pastry: http://www.deliaonline.com/recipes/salmon-...ac,1251,RC.html

BBC recipe, ditto: http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/database...iac_86190.shtml

Emeril recipe, scratch dough: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-...cipe/index.html

Hong Kong Dave

O que nao mata engorda.

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There is a Siberian restaurant in San Francisco name of Cinderella. It makes something it calls pirogi, also Siberian style pie. One version is a baked dish of salmon, sturgeon and glass noodles with puff pastry.

My sister in law grew up eating there with her Siberian grandparents. She really wants me to make this dish for her. I haven't been able to find a recipe. Can anyone help?

Thanking you. essvee

may be this link could help you

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There is a Siberian restaurant in San Francisco name of Cinderella. It makes something it calls pirogi, also Siberian style pie. One version is a baked dish of salmon, sturgeon and glass noodles with puff pastry.

My sister in law grew up eating there with her Siberian grandparents. She really wants me to make this dish for her. I haven't been able to find a recipe. Can anyone help?

Thanking you. essvee

In Russian "Pirogi" is plural for "pirog," (pronounced kind of like "pea-ROGUE," stress on the last syllable.) Pirog means pie, it may be sweet or savory, but it is always rectangular, never round. It is not to be confused with the Ukrainian dumplings with a similar sounding name.

When most russophiles think of Russian food sooner or later they come up with "pirozhki." Pirozhki is a smaller version of a Russian pirog, Russians use the same dough and stuffing for both. To paraphrase Tolstoy, every Russian family makes pirogs or pirozhki, but each family makes them differently. For large family gatherings they usually make pirog.

There were three waves of emigration from Russia: following the 1917 revolution, following WW2, and as a result of recent political changes. Foodwise, all three groups may have come from different planets, although the basic menu items remain the same, insisting on authenticity of this or that recipe is meaningless and may lead to WW3. :smile: I am not kidding.

Now to your question about glass noodles; Before the revolution well-to-do Russians in St. Petersburg and Moscow enjoyed pirogs and pirozhki with what they called "viziga" (pronounced vee-ZEE-gah). Viziga is plural for (lack of better word) collagen like transparent looking string extracted from a sturgeon's backbone. Getting enough "viziga" for a pie was a very expensive and complicated process. In those days viziga was as desirable and expensive as, let's say, white truffles are in Manhattan today.

After the revolution many members of Russian nobility fled the country, some ended up in Europe and US, mostly in New York or San Francisco, cities with great Chinatowns. Now poor, the formerly well-to-do Russians, discovered the cellophane noodles, which they claimed tasted exactly like "viziga. This is how Russians in certain countries, not the former USSR, started using glass noodles, NEVER rice noodles in their meat or fish pirogs.

(By the way, the poster in Hong Kong, THANK you so much for posting Delia's recipe, looks very interesting, I am going to attempt it one of these days.)

Most Russian pirogs are not made with puff pastry, but if this is what your friend wants, use it.

Occasionally I do make a savory pirog, as I learned years ago from an old Russian woman in SF where I went to school and ate in Russian eateries on Geary and Clement.

For the stuffing you will need glass noodles, fish, onions, HB eggs, S&P:

1. Soak or boil glass noodles according to your instructions. (Don't buy the skinny noodles from PRC usually sold in batches with pink thread, you need noodles that when rehydrated will be thick, almost the size of a cooked spaghetti, round and transparent.) Drain real well, take your time, all water must be gone.

2. Saute one or two onions, small dice, don't let them brown, but they should be soft and tasty. Cool.

3. You can use any fish your friend likes. I prefer canned salmon or canned tuna in oil, or combination of both.

4. In a large bowl combine noodles, onions, and fish. Break fish into smaller pieces, you don't want to have a huge piece of fish in your mouth. The beauty of pirog is that each bite has a little bit of everything in it. Be reasonably generous with S&P. Now taste and correct the seasoning.

5. Place the the dough of your choice on a baking sheet with sides, (I use half sheet). If you are using puff pastry you will need to prick it all over. Put half of your mixed stuffing in one layer, making sure the fish is evenly distributed and leaving about an inch on all four sides. Chop 2-3 HB eggs and spread them evenly all over the stuffing. Cover with the rest of the stuffing.

6. Place a second sheet of dough on top and seal all four sides real well. If using PP refrigerate as needed.

7. To bake: preheat the oven for at least half an hour. Make one or two vertical cuts in the top layer of the dough only. You need to let the steam out, or the dough in the bottom will be wet. Brush with egg glaze and bake.

I hope this helps.

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It helps a lot. I only had the pirog at Cinderella once. It's entirely possible that I am mis-remembering the puff pastry. Do you use short crust instead?

Do you think that I am mis-remembering the salmon and sturgeon together? That it is one or the other?

Lastly, is it possible that the bakery might have used some kind of a binder, maybe sour cream and beaten egg, to hold the filling together?

One more question-- are there any options besides S+P for seasoning? Bay, thyme, nutmeg or mace?

Thank you very very much. You have made a new mother very happy. I will make this dish for her tomorrow!

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It helps a lot. I only had the pirog at Cinderella once. It's entirely possible that I am mis-remembering the puff pastry. Do you use short crust instead?

Do you think that I am mis-remembering the salmon and sturgeon together? That it is one or the other?

Lastly, is it possible that the bakery might have used some kind of a binder, maybe sour cream and beaten egg, to hold the filling together?

One more question-- are there any options besides S+P for seasoning? Bay, thyme, nutmeg or mace?

Thank you very very much. You have made a new mother very happy. I will make this dish for her tomorrow!

I have never eaten at Cinderella, and my San Francisco memories are based on late 50s and early 60s when the Russians who have dance with Nijinsky or have met Ata Turk were still alive. I won't be surprised if Cinderella uses puff pastry; in addition to tasting good it costs pennies at a restaurant supply place, it is already rolled out and ready to go at a moment's notice. Because it is puff pastry clients gladly pay more.

I would think that salmon and sturgeon together would be redundant and very expensive for a restaurant, unless, of course, they use canned fish. I have never heard of that combination, but I am not a Russian food expert.

As to sour cream or beaten egg to hold the filling together..., it would have a consistency of a quiche, wouldn't it? I have never heard of a Russian pirog made that way, but again, I am not a Russian food expert.

As to the spices and condiments in general -- traditionally Russians use them very sparingly. It is mostly salt, pepper, sugar, vinegar, mustard and horseradish. (Of course, the mustard and horseradish are homemade and more often then not are heavenly.) Bay leaves are used in soups and stews, mace and nutmeg are used in dessert baking. I've never had a pirog with either of them. Some cooks, if / when they have it add a little bit of dill to the pirog stuffing.

If I were you, I would make two kinds of stuffing that you want to make and place one on one half, and the other on the other half of the pie, let them meet in the center of the pirog. They should take the same time to bake. When done -- taste both and see which one works for you. Russians do it all the time. When making a pirog for a small group, they would make one half with meat stuffing, the other with cabbage, voila, every one, is happy. good luck to you. If you have problems PM me.

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definitely the word pir means baked or fry then pirohy is is the Ukrainian pronouciation pirogi does not exists in Russian language but an import from Ukraine and Poland. The Russian word for pirohy is piroshok or piroshki or pelmeny definetly Siberian in origin and similar to Turkic manti thus filled with meat and steamed.

In Ukrainie steamed or boiled would be known as vareniki from the word varit' or varite meaning boiled.

So to conclude the appropiate Russian/Siberian name is Pelmeni.

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Great ideas, Skipper. Do you have any suggestions for a cabbage and/or mushroom filling?

Cabbage pie is a bit tricky because cabbage gives out too much juice, but if you cook it to death it tastes awful. I was taught to make cabbage pie this way:

Place in a large, heavy bottomed pan chiffonade of a whole small cabbage, (cored, of course) you can do it in Food Processor. Sprinkle cabbage with a little bit of salt and a generous teaspoon of sugar. Add 1/2 cup of milk. Braise on top of the stove, partially covered, LOW & SLOW mixing every once in a while so your cabbage does not burn in the bottom. It is ready when most juices have evaporated and the cabbage tastes good. Drain the juices well. When making your "pirog" add chopped HB eggs to the cabbage, salt and pepper .

I have never made pirog with mushrooms, I suppose you could saute some and add to whatever stuffing you are making, or make pirog with glass noodles and mushrooms. Let me know how it goes. Good luck.

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definitely  the word pir means baked or fry then pirohy is is the Ukrainian pronouciation pirogi does not exists in Russian language but an import from Ukraine and Poland. The Russian word for pirohy is piroshok or piroshki or pelmeny definetly Siberian in origin and similar to Turkic manti thus filled with meat and steamed.

In Ukrainie steamed or boiled would be known as vareniki from the word varit' or varite meaning boiled.

So to conclude the appropiate Russian/Siberian name is Pelmeni.

You are mixing apples and oranges, pies and dumplings. I do not speak Ukrainian, but I do speak Russian, I also know that although there are some similarities between these two languages, some words have opposite meaning. (comparable to different meaning of certain words in American and British usage of English, only more so.)

In Russian the word "pir" pronounced "PEER" means a feast and the word "Pirog" means a pie. You are right to say that Russians do not usually refer to "Siberian pie," just as Americans, who make chili all over the country, distinguish "Texas chili" from "Cincinnati Chili," but would not recognize "Washington DC chili" as something special.

"Pelmeni" are usually meat dumplings, and you are right, Siberian pelmeny are famous in Russia. The Russian pelmeny's taste and texture is closer to home made Chinese dumplings, (pronounced Jao-dze) which they usually boil, not steam at home. The Russian pelmen (singular of pelmeni) shape is that of a large tortelini, not manti.

Turkish manti, spelled with "i" without the dot on top and pronounced "mun-ty" are dumplings for sure but taste and look very different from pelmeny. (I would kill for a plateful of manti right now, but don't know how to make them.) They are delicate morcels, have four corners and are made with filo dough, not flour & water dough of Russian and Chinese dumplings.

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