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Babbo (First 6 Years)


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You get more bread and butter often without asking, but you don't get more of the amuse bouche

That was a great analogy, it certainly answered my question comparing wine and water.

Could you maybe raise the question to Danny Meyer's organization.  When I read the article in the NYT, I thought his response was a little flip.  I see his point from a business perspective, but as a customer I thought it was a touch offensive.

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Quote: from Fat Guy on 1:41 pm on Nov. 15, 2001

I have no objection to a restaurant pursuing an automatic refill policy if management has legitimately determined that its core customers are happy with it that way.

if that's the case, i think the restaurant should advertise that fact, just as they have the "no non-smoking section" and "cell phones not permitted" signs.  

"This restaurant will continue to serve you bottled water from the moment you order the first until you get up to leave."

That way, everyone understands the "expectation".

That was a great analogy, it certainly answered my question comparing wine and water.

oh man, you backed down so fast!!!  no way.  i was going to use the water/wine analogy as well.  i'm not convinced.

and really, how many times would a server have to ask if you want another bottle that it would become bothersome??  what, 2 additional times for a party of 4?  come on.  sounds like some of those who expect non-stop water are a little tightly wound.  unlike me of course. ;)

(Edited by tommy at 2:04 pm on Nov. 15, 2001)

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Quote: from ron johnson on 3:19 pm on Nov. 15, 2001

At Gramercy Tavern the water choices presented to me were: sparkling or still.  I never was asked if I wanted tap, and I never gave a thought to how much they would charge me for the bottled water.

We spent so much on wine, who cares.

But did they keep bringing you bottled water without your requesting it and charging you for it? I don't mind spending Ů or ů for a bottle of water but when we're talking about 2 or 3 bottles, methinks we're spending money like water! ;)

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Okay, I am sending copies of this thread to Danny Meyer and to a manager at Babbo who once e-mailed me about something (it remains to be seen if that person still works there). I'll let you know what I hear. I know we also have some restaurant-business folks lurking here, so maybe they will chime in.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Ruby, I don't remember if they kept refilling and to be honest I didn't care.  GT is so #### good and the service is so incredible ( a Danny Meyer hallmark) that what we were paying for water wasn't really important.

If a chef has gone to a lot of trouble to make sure that my dinner was made from the finest ingredients and the sommelier has made sure that I am drinking the finest wine that I can afford, why should I question drinking water that tastes good along with them?

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If the waiters at GT charge for each bottle of water without determining if you were willing to pay for it, that is not incredible service. Truly great restaurants are mindful of integrity in every "transaction" (in the broad social sense). That's why truly great restaurants are so hard to find.

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Quote: from ron johnson on 4:09 pm on Nov. 15, 2001

If a chef has gone to a lot of trouble to make sure that my dinner was made from the finest ingredients and the sommelier has made sure that I am drinking the finest wine that I can afford, why should I question drinking water that tastes good along with them?

Well, Ron, here's my response to this. The chef created something wonderful for you and your guests to eat, the sommelier provided their wine knowledge to help you enjoy the wine you can afford - but what did they do to a bottle of designer water besides open it and pour it in a nice glass for you and then charge ŭ-7 for Perrier-Pellegrino-whatever? If you don't mind, that's fine-it's your money-but the point of the original posting was that Babbo was charging the table for bottled water without a request from the table. They wouldn't dare do that with wine, desserts and fancy coffee drinks. The customer is usually always right and IMO Babbo and their servers shouldn't assume that people want to spend their money on additional bottles of water without asking first.

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Water, can't live w/o it.  Always a contentious topic, including among restaurant management.  As for it being a legitimate profit center, I wholeheartedly agree.  Charge what the market will bear... it's a luxury item, no one is twisting arms.  No different than wine in that sense.  Our restaurant is not in the same class as others mentioned here, but we do have specific policies as far as how the wait staff sells/offers water.  Our place has a reputation for being unpretentious which we're proud of.  Waiters are supposed to ask "mineral, sparkling OR tap".  However, they are clearly instructed to try to upsell and their cover averages are looked at carefully.  We even have contests and award bonuses for most wine or water sold, highest cover average, etc.  I suspect this is no different than many other places.  However, it's not an easy task to be unpretentious and try to push stuff on people, but a good waiter can do it.  It's all about attitude.  

We sell a 750ml liter bottle of Voss (mineral) and liter bottle of Pelligrino for Ů & 500ml of Pelligrino for Ŭ.  [stephen, we pay no where near ũ.40 for Pelligrino -- more like ũ.05] No one ever complained and we sell plenty, mostly Pelligrino.  [Personally, I can't tell the difference between tap and any bottled mineral water, though I love Pelligrino -- but I would never pay Ů for it -- as someone else indicated, on general principle.]

As for refills, I think we're all in agreement that what Babbo did was disgustingly wrong, but I have a feeling that this might have been an overzealous waiter.  The stuff about him confronting the patron about the comment card was low class, and again, I'd find it hard to believe that Babbo condones such a thing.

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Glenn, just for the record: On Nov. 5 I sat upstairs at Babbo and a waitress gave us a second bottle without asking. On Nov. 12 I sat on the ground floor and a waiter opened a second, and then a third, bottle. It's clear to me that there is a restaurant-wide procedure at work. By the way, what is your restaurant and where can we find it? Consider this a no-spam zone.

(Edited by robert brown at 8:44 pm on Nov. 15, 2001)

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Robert, I stand corrected. However I still find it hard to believe that confronting a customer on a comment card is condoned.  We have comment cards also --- a manager might approach a customer in a non-confrontational manner if there was a question or concern, i.e., "the rats crawling under my table made me lose my appetite", but that's the extent of it.  I know I wouldn't want to be put on the spot for making a written comment.

[since I'm not speaking officially for the place I work at, I'd rather not make that public.

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Quote: from tommy on 8:57 pm on Nov. 15, 2001
Quote: from glenn on 8:15 pm on Nov. 15, 2001

... it's a luxury item, no one is twisting arms.  

but they are.  and that's the whole point.

Apparently so at Babbo, but I was speaking about the place I work at.

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Apparently so at Babbo, but I was speaking about the place I work at.

we need more places like yours.  more servers like those that you work with.

snobbery has no place in a service industry.  and snobbery is a big aspect of what we're talking about.  intimidation, inappropriateness, and other aspects of human nature that would not be condoned anywhere else.

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Personally, I never order bottled water. I will not flinch about paying 200/250 dollars for a wonderful meal but 7/8 dollars for bottled water is to me crazy. To compare water to wine is wrong since the restaurant does not have to store the water for 4/5 years until ready and no one charges 7 times retail for their wine.

The other evening at a dinner party I asked if when paying their bill (and if they had bottled water) they included the price of the water in their tip? Also, did they realize that they were also paying 8% tax on the price of the water. Honestly. You could hear a pin drop.

Hank

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Quote: from Hank on 9:42 pm on Nov. 15, 2001

To compare water to wine is wrong since the restaurant does not have to store the water for 4/5 years until ready and no one charges 7 times retail for their wine.

that comparison was made to illustrate the point that servers should not bring anything with a cost to the table without being asked.  they don't do it with wine, why do it with water.  it wasn't to point out the incredible mark-up on water, which doesn't seem to irk those who drink it as much as the mark-up on wine irks wine drinkers.

personally, i'm irked about everything.

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Quote: from Fat Guy on 1:09 pm on Nov. 15, 2001

Okay, then I truly am alone here!

Not entirely.  I think there are circumstances in which replenishing the water without asking is appropriate.  I have often seen it happen at what are clearly business lunches or dinners, where the restaurant can safely assume no individual is paying.  I also recognise the wealthy demographic who find it almost insulting to be asked if they can run to a second bottle of Pellegrino.  

As far as bread goes, you may get more without paying for it, but I find you often need to ask.  At Michael's in midtown New York, it took some time to get bread served with the appetizers; when I finally snared a waiter, he carefully selected one half-slice of bread from his bursting basket and laid it delicately on my side plate.  I wondered if he was paying for the brad out of his salary.

But what a thread this is - give it up, everyone, and drink from the tap.

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Quote: from Wilfrid on 10:36 am on Nov. 16, 2001
Quote: from Fat Guy on 1:09 pm on Nov. 15, 2001

Okay, then I truly am alone here!

Quote: from Wilfrid:Not entirely.  I think there are circumstances in which replenishing the water without asking is appropriate.  I have often seen it happen at what are clearly business lunches or dinners, where the restaurant can safely assume no individual is paying.  I also recognise the wealthy demographic who find it almost insulting to be asked if they can run to a second bottle of Pellegrino.
 

Wilfrid, sure I can understand that because a bunch of people, who are on the expense account, would be sharing more than one bottle of water. However, how does the server know the table doesn't want to change to still water? They should still ask. Ruby

Quote from Wilfred: As far as bread goes, you may get more without paying for it, but I find you often need to ask.  At Michael's in midtown New York, it took some time to get bread served with the appetizers; when I finally snared a waiter, he carefully selected one half-slice of bread from his bursting basket and laid it delicately on my side plate.  I wondered if he was paying for the brad out of his salary.

Wilfrid, it seems to me that no restaurant wants to push the bread as people will fill up before the main dishes arrive and 1) they may not enjoy the food as much and 2) eating so much bread may not leave much room for dessert which is always a profit center for restaurants. Personally, if the bread is that good, I do keep reaching for it and know I'll spoil my appetite for the main event. Ruby

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Glenn and Ron's comments illustrate another issue besides that of pouring follow-on bottles without asking.   I have found that the waitstaff at the majority of restaurants that push the bottled water thing start off by asking "still or sparkling".   I find this approach annoying.  First of all, am I to assume that "still" means a bottled water that I have to pay for, or still water from the tap?  (of course in these places it's probably safe to assume you're going to pay for it!).   It's fine if they want sell to ů water to people who prefer it, but they really should ask "sparkling, still OR tap."   I feel that failing to explicitly mention tap water as a choice is pretentious, potentially misleading, and a somewhat offensive effort to up-sell.    

And speaking of "up-selling", I am a capitalist and believe in restaurants and waiters maximizing profits where appropriate, but Glenn's comments about competitions of who can sell the most water or other items kind of bothers me.  Does this mean that if I ask a waiter for a food recommendation or a sommelier for a wine recommendation that they are merely going to suggest the most expensive or highest margin items?   This might be tolerable at an inexpensive restaurant, but I do not go to a great restaurant to be treated like an adversary in a financial deal.  I would hope the management and waitstaff would have some integrity in giving honest advice in order to provide me with the best experience possible.  In the long run this approach may also be the best from a profit perspective, as happy customers are often repeat customers and bigger tippers.  

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But what a thread this is - give it up, everyone, and drink from the tap.

This is only salient advice if you live in New York City, as the water that gets piped in there comes from very sophisticated water purifier plants in Westchester County -- this results in some of the best tap water in the nation. However, in other parts of the country, and this includes Long Island and New Jersey, drinking the tap water is probably not a good idea as there is evidence of many kinds of hazardous chemicals in them -- in the case of L.I., much higher than normal levels of radioactive isotopes of Cobalt and Strontium, which have caused the breast cancer levels there to skyrocket.  Nobody sane on Long Island drinks tap water. Most people I know that live there have bottled water delivery to their homes.

Jason Perlow, Co-Founder eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters

Foodies who Review South Florida (Facebook) | offthebroiler.com - Food Blog (archived) | View my food photos on Instagram

Twittter: @jperlow | Mastodon @jperlow@journa.host

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Well , I had New York in mind for obvious reasons.  I did forget L.I.  If the water there is a hazardous as you imply, the residents should be taking legal action.  I guess I was just suggesting that water service should be perhaps the least complex and fraught part of the dining out experience, although this thread suggests otherwise.

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AZ does the "still or sparkling" number. (Not that that is the worst thing about AZ, the food is.)

Also, has anyone else noticed that if you ask for still, the waiter doesn't necessarily open the bottle in front of you? I think the bottle should be opened at the table. Could be full of tap for all we know. Now that would be a money-maker!

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If the water there is a hazardous as you imply, the residents should be taking legal action

Heh. There are many lawsuits on the books for that one, class action stuff with hundreds of plaintiffs. But as Fat Guy can tell you, those things take years.

Jason Perlow, Co-Founder eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters

Foodies who Review South Florida (Facebook) | offthebroiler.com - Food Blog (archived) | View my food photos on Instagram

Twittter: @jperlow | Mastodon @jperlow@journa.host

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Quote: from Jason Perlow on 1:08 pm on Nov. 16, 2001

But what a thread this is - give it up, everyone, and drink from the tap.

This is only salient advice if you live in New York City, as the water that gets piped in there comes from very sophisticated water purifier plants in Westchester County -- this results in some of the best tap water in the nation.  

Well, Jason, I live in the heart of Manhattan and can't tell you how many times I've gotten brown smelly water that flows through the old pipes. I can always tell when the water is going to be brown because the pressure of the water changes and the pipes start making cha-cha sounds. I've complained to the Board of Health and they say this can occur when there's construction in the streets. I won't drink tap water at home and buy gallons of distilled water. Don't laugh - even my cats Casey & Daisy won't drink the water when it's brown. I refuse to buy a Brita and so far am happy with my distilled water.

Additionally, with all the health threats around (Anthrax, smallpox, etc.) I'm not going to drink tap water at this point. I was in Westchester where the New York City reservoirs are supplied and it would have been so easy to throw something into the water from the bridge I was standing on. And I'm not a paranoid person.

So pass the bottled water please but I wish restaurants weren't so pushy and so eager to inflate the prices of water. I have found Pellegrino and Perrier on sale for 89 cents. How can they charge from ŭ-8 for the same thing? Amazing and as long as people pay for it, restaurants will keep pushing and charging astronomical prices.

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