Babbo (First 6 Years)

[MatthewB]

Sam,

Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant?

I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

I don't think it's ethnocentrism. It's just cultural differences. Get a feel for the place and try to fit in. Understand that things won't be the way they are for you at wherever you are from. It's no different, really, than the adjustments a New Yorker would have to make coming to your town.

It's hard to put my finger on it. I was raised in a big East coast city by parents from the rural South (father) and all over the world (mother). I spend a lot of time far away from home growing up and have always traveled a lot, both within America and internationally. So, for whatever reason, I have always had a very easy time automatically fitting in to whatever the social norms are wherever I am -- to the extent that I often engage in what linguists call "code switching" and change my accent and mode of speech depending on where I am and who I am talking to without thinking about it.

To me, it's all about understanding where people are coming from. Like, for example, some people have a difficult time understanding why Italians would never have a cappucino after dinner. It is because they consider cappucino a breakfast drink, and having one after dinner would be like following a fine meal with a glass of orange juice. So, when in Rome... well, I think we know how the rest of that one goes. Anyway, that's enough OT wandering for me today.

That doesn't help me much.

Let me try again . . .

What is it that Midwesterners *do* when eating out in the Midwest that Midwesterners *shouldn't do* when eating out in NYC?

And . . .

What is it that Midwesterners *don't do* when eating out in the Midwest that Midwesterners *should do* when eating out in NYC?

[slkinsey]

Just curious. Let's say these midwesterners go to a high-end NYC restaurant and behave like (gasp) midwesterners. Okay, so they don't know how to dress properly, it's true. But is it therefore permissable, acceptable, correct, understandable or whatever-able for the professional waitstaff at said restaurant to treat them rudely? And, from what I gather in this thread, is it okay that their treatment of other customers (high-end NYC customers even) then become rude in turn? Somehow these poor unsuspecting midwesterners are being blamed for what seems to be a general decline in customer service. IOW - are we playing blame the victim here? That's what it sounds like.

Cakewalk, all I am saying is that midwesterners who go into an NYC restaurant and expect their midwestern behavior to be met with a response that meets their midwestern expectations is a recipe for disappointment.

If, as I speculated -- and it is only idle speculation, as I have no idea -- the increasing presence of tourists at Babbo has engendered a change in attitude or service towards a kind of behavior that is not as good as it once was, that doesn't absolve the Babbo personnel from responsibility for their behavior. If, on the other hand -- and, again, this is only idle speculation -- the attutide and service is largely the same but the increasing number of tourists visiting the restaurant has resulted in a larger number of complaints, that is a different story. In the second case, I wouldn't necessarily say "blame the victims" but I also wouldn't say "blame the staff" either.

Again, no restaurant can satisfy 100% of its customers 100% of the time.

[slkinsey]

I think I've eaten at Babbo five times in the last two years, every time at the bar. Then only "service" contact I have are the bartenders and the busboys. On my last visit (back in May) I reported a clearly worse experience of service from the bartenders. I would call it totally uninterested and lax service. The previous four times, I found the bartender service to be exceptionally good.

Macrosan,

I think you will agree that 4 out of 5 visits to Babbo having great service, with the last visit being the only disappointment, is not necessarily an indication that the level of service is on the way down. That could have been an off night, and your next visit might be right back up at your previous level of experience.

[mikeycook]

Sam,

Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant?

I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

I don't think it's ethnocentrism. It's just cultural differences. Get a feel for the place and try to fit in. Understand that things won't be the way they are for you at wherever you are from. It's no different, really, than the adjustments a New Yorker would have to make coming to your town.

It's hard to put my finger on it. I was raised in a big East coast city by parents from the rural South (father) and all over the world (mother). I spend a lot of time far away from home growing up and have always traveled a lot, both within America and internationally. So, for whatever reason, I have always had a very easy time automatically fitting in to whatever the social norms are wherever I am -- to the extent that I often engage in what linguists call "code switching" and change my accent and mode of speech depending on where I am and who I am talking to without thinking about it.

To me, it's all about understanding where people are coming from. Like, for example, some people have a difficult time understanding why Italians would never have a cappucino after dinner. It is because they consider cappucino a breakfast drink, and having one after dinner would be like following a fine meal with a glass of orange juice. So, when in Rome... well, I think we know how the rest of that one goes. Anyway, that's enough OT wandering for me today.

That doesn't help me much.

Let me try again . . .

What is it that Midwesterners *do* when eating out in the Midwest that Midwesterners *shouldn't do* when eating out in NYC?

And . . .

What is it that Midwesterners *don't do* when eating out in the Midwest that Midwesterners *should do* when eating out in NYC?

IMHO, just be yourself. Be courteous, dress appropriately for the restaurant, and if you are treated badly, don't go back and tell your friends (and, similarly, if you are treated well, tell your friends... and post on eGullet). Restaurants in NYC should be held to the same standard (in terms of treatment of customers) as everywhere else.

Edited August 12, 2003 by mikeycook (log)

[KNorthrup]

I would think that any restaurant that releases a cookbook is setting themselves up for (if not outright inviting) tourists.

[FireIslanddish]

Folks we DID NOT hold up the table for 45 minutes. Perhaps I misled with the excerpts. My friend had called several days before to negotiate the reservation from 6:15 to 6:30pm. My husband was exactly 26 minutes late. He not only left a board meeting early to get there as soon as possible, but also as I said encountered the Cesaria traffic. My God let's be human and know that people run late.

If you've been to Babbo you would know there is NO WAY to order for someone else. Even some else who you know very well. The menu really is just too diverse.

Also, as I originally said, the tables on either side of us never, NEVER got seated again. We kept asking when they would need our table so we could graciously leave before that was the case. They refused to answer the question. They refused to let us start ordering before my husband got there. Is that right?

Hopefully, I will go again and be more then pleasantly surprised. However, I am not going through the reservation process (call a month to the day between 9am and 11am on redial). Will have to be a guest reserver.

[tommy]

Sam,

Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant?

I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

I don't think it's ethnocentrism. It's just cultural differences. Get a feel for the place and try to fit in. Understand that things won't be the way they are for you at wherever you are from.

i know a lot of NY'ers who don't act appropriately or "fit in" as well.

[Stone]

Sam,

Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant?

I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

Dress appropriately. (Although I'm sure you would anyway.)

There's a big issue about declining/changing standards for dress, generally plummeting towards everything being casual. Some people, me included, like the thought that certain areas maintain a formal feel -- theater, opera, high-end restaurants. I remember going to see a Broadway matinee in the early 80's and everyone -- except the obvious tourists -- wore at least a sport coat. Now I go to the opera in SF and parents are in t-shirts and shorts and their kids are dressed like they're going to a rave. Many people think that's fine, or even a good thing. I disagree (and find it very disrespectful to the staff and players).

I've never been to Babbo, but I assume Mario et al. spend a lot of money and energy creating a beautiful atmosphere. I'm sure diners would be disappointed if they showed up and saw plastic covered table clothes, table tents advertising Mario's new jalepeno poppers, and waiters wearing ten buttons pushing various tropical drinks. That's not what you're paying for. People should, in my opinion, dress and act accordingly.

But yes, I know that poor dress is certainly not the exclusive provence of mid-western tourists. (I mean, there is Florida after all. ) But when I was last at Gary Danko, and the guy at the table next to me was wearing an open collar hawaiin shirt and sandles and his date had on a . . . I don't even know how to describe it (let's say that nothing involved in that dress was created naturally) and in their booming voices they ordered a Mai Tai and a Bombay 'Tini . . . . . I'm glad that my parents moved me out of St. Louis when I was 1.

Edited August 12, 2003 by Stone (log)

[tommy]

Sam,

Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant?

I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

Dress appropriately.

are jeans OK?

[mcdowell]

Sam,

Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant?

I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

Dress appropriately.

are jeans OK?

Only if they're not tucked into your boots.

[MatthewB]

Sam,

Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant?

I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

Dress appropriately.

You mean I should wear my church clothes?

[Felonius]

If it was my reputation as a chef and owner I would want to know the postive and negative experiences.  Many people have since told me he probably is too egocentric to care what I thought.  And I have heard back from several friends that they have the same experience.

Cheers,

FireIslanddish

Damn straight! I grew up in the high end hotel/restaurant business, and if there is ONE most important lesson I learned it is "the customer is always right" (no matter how wrong you may think they are). Word of mouth among the truly high end clientelle is everything in this business. He may be able to fool the "Molto Mario" crowd on vacation from Main Street USA (and I'd emphasize MAYBE), and the "see and be seen" types in NYC that will put up with anything to be in the hot new spot, but that's about it. People like Fireislanddish who have the resources and choices to dine wherever they choose are not going to put up with rude service, pushy table-turning, impossible reservations policies, etc. Why do so when you can take a 5 minute cab ride to Cafe Boulud, Gramercy Tavern, The Tasting Room, Blue Ribbon (to name a few) where the staff will treat you like the special person that you are. These people know that a happy customer not only comes back, but tells all their other big-spending friends to visit. The fact you showed up at such a high end restaurant in the first place means that you are in that 1% of the U.S. population that is their target market. They need your business and that of your friends and coworkers. Good press with you is better than any advertisement they could pay for. It for this reason that my father got to the office an hour early every day to read EVERY SINGLE letter from customers, and respond to each one personally - usually with some sort of generous invitation for free dinner or a hotel room if the person was disatisfied for any reason during their last visit. This simple philosophy brought him great success in business over many years in many luxury hotels/restaurants, not to mention a lot of happy customers.

Having said all that, Mario is in an extremely unusual position of having one of the hottest/trendiest restaurants in wealthiest large city in the world. He can probably afford to piss off customers for some period of time, maybe indefinitely, because he has such a large potential customer base. He also has the unusual benefit of his TV promotion to generate new business. However, if he is indeed blind to customer comments and criticism, this will come back to haunt him at some point in his career. If he or a manager doesn't respond to Fireislanddish's letter, I think we have found "Mario the Great's" Achilles' heel. David Bouley had the NYC culinary world at his feet and the chance to make a small fortune. His lack of business acumen and customer service have all but wiped him out over the long term. If Mario is to retain a place among the truly elite restaurants, at some point he will have to make sure his staff treats the customers more graciously. Otherwise he may find himself among the Bobby Flay's of this world, a celebrity chef serving dumbed-down cuisine to people who wouldn't know a veal cheek or vin santo from a chicken mcnugget and a diet coke. And commercial success aside, caring about all your customers is just the RIGHT thing to do! Why be in the hospitality business if you don't like being hospitable? If you want to screw people to make money, go work on Wall Street!

Fireislanddish - Mario needs your business and needs to work hard to keep it. He just doesn't know it yet. Keep us posted on whether or not you receive a reply from Babbo & Co. I'll be curious to see how this ends.

Edited August 12, 2003 by Felonius (log)

[FireIslanddish]

I would think that any restaurant that releases a cookbook is setting themselves up for (if not outright inviting) tourists.

I'm not sure I agree. Look at the French Laundry, Patricia Wells, etc.

[MatthewB]

Let me try again . . .

What is it that Midwesterners *do* when eating out in the Midwest that Midwesterners *shouldn't do* when eating out in NYC?

And . . .

What is it that Midwesterners *don't do* when eating out in the Midwest that Midwesterners *should do* when eating out in NYC?

IMHO, just be yourself. Be courteous, dress appropriately for the restaurant, . . .

I consider myself courteous & I aim to be ever-so-slightly overdressed for the occasion.

But I'm still curious as to what Midwesterners should be doing while dining in NYC that we aren't doing here in the Heartland.

In other words, I *can't* just be "myself."

[bilrus]

I'm glad that my parents moved me out of St. Louis when I was 1.

Edited August 12, 2003 by bilrus (log)

[MatthewB]

But yes, I know that poor dress is certainly not the exclusive provence of mid-western tourists.  (I mean, there is Florida after all. )  But when I was last at Gary Danko, and the guy at the table next to me was wearing an open collar hawaiin shirt and sandles and his date had on a . . . I don't even know how to describe it (let's say that nothing involved in that dress was created naturally) and in their booming voices they ordered a Mai Tai and a Bombay 'Tini . . . . .  I'm glad that my parents moved me out of St. Louis when I was 1.

My SO & I were in SF from Christmas to New Year's Day.

We were shocked by how casual the locals dressed while eating out.

The only exception to this was New Year's Eve dinner at Fifth Floor.

[mikeycook]

Let me try again . . .

What is it that Midwesterners *do* when eating out in the Midwest that Midwesterners *shouldn't do* when eating out in NYC?

And . . .

What is it that Midwesterners *don't do* when eating out in the Midwest that Midwesterners *should do* when eating out in NYC?

IMHO, just be yourself. Be courteous, dress appropriately for the restaurant, . . .

I consider myself courteous & I aim to be ever-so-slightly overdressed for the occasion.

But I'm still curious as to what Midwesterners should be doing while dining in NYC that we aren't doing here in the Heartland.

In other words, I *can't* just be "myself."

I disagree. I eat out in NYC all the time (I live there) and I have been out to dinner with people all over the country. I do not believe that "special behavior" is required to eat in New York restaurants. I have also dined many places in the Heartland (including one of my all-time favorite meals, at Charlie Trotter's) and strongly believe the same standards should, and do, apply (except in certain restaurants that treat everyone equally badly). My friends from the midwest do not modify their behavior to eat in New York and we don't modify our behavior to eat in the midwest. We have never had any problems. Any restaurant that treats you differently because you are from the midwest cannot, by definition, be a great restaurant. I believe those who think you have to act "differently" to eat in New York are way off base.

[Felonius]

In a situation where the restaurant has XYZ cultural expectations and customers come in operating under ABC, there are bound to be conflicts.  The only kind of restaurant for which this is typically not the case -- and should not be the case -- are restaurants which specifically cater to tourists.  Babbo, in my opinion, does not consider itself to be a tourist restaurant, nor does it seek to be one.  All of Mario's places are decidedly New York City restaurants.

I wonder how many of the people who complain about Babbo are from the City as opposed to out of towners.  I am willing to bet that most of them are from out of town, and that many of their complaints are for perceived slights that most City dwellers would hardly notice.

I should modify my earlier remark to say that there are modes of behavior, etc. that are appropriate to other parts of the country that are not appropriate to an NYC restaurant

(and vice-versa, of course).

I agree there are bound to be some conflicts, but these conflicts should be minimized and handled graciously by the restaurant staff. It is THEIR job to please the customer, NOT the other way around! If a guest is blatantly out of line (i.e. getting wasted on Jaegermeister shots at the Babbo Bar) I wouldn't blame the staff for getting miffed and being less than hospitable. But if a guy shows up from Des Moines in funny clothes and needs help figuring out the menu, he is still deserves the best service possible for several reasons. From an ethical perspective, he is paying the same fee for the experience as everyone else in the place, so as long as he is polite than why shouldn't he receive the same quality product and service? From a business perspective, this guy may just be a lot more successfull or connected than he appears, and pissing him off may have repercussions. If the waitstaff and hosts are true professionals who take pride in their job, they will do their best to make this guy feel like a king. If on the other hand they are self-absorbed, arrogant, 2nd-tier NYC restaurant staff, then they will likely behave as the obnoxious host at Babbo has done to me and to many others by making them feel unwelcome, hurried or hassled. Babbo is not a private social club who as it liberty to choose its membership.

I am certain that the complaints are not just from out of towners. I'm a New Yorker who has lived and dined all over the world and could blend in with the crowd at Babbo, Jean Georges, Ducasse, whatever - yet I have experienced service problems at Babbo. So many problems in fact, that I no longer dine there regularly despite how much I love their food. I have other friends from New York city who would agree.

SlKinsey - I hear what you are saying about all this and am somewhat sympathetic as the WHY you think this social disconnect might be happening at Babbo. I just can't agree that this should affect the service if the place were run properly. I think the problems at Babbo are relatively straightforward and could be easily fixed. First of all, they need to fire the front of the house and reservations staff, and replace them with people who can be friendly even under the hectic conditions typical of a place like Babbo. There is absolutely no excuse for the way Fireislanddish was treated over the phone. Secondly, Mario or whoever needs to lighten up on the "rules" he has put in place for diners, and finally they need to focus a bit more on providing a pleasant dining experience rather than absolutely max table turns every night. In the dozens of times I've dined there, I have come to believe that the management philosophy is more about turning tables than making the customers happy. This is not the case (at least not so overtly) at many of their high end competitors. One solution might be to raise prices enough to make up for a bit less volume.

Edited August 12, 2003 by Felonius (log)

[slkinsey]

Sam,

Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant?

I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

Dress appropriately.

are jeans OK?

Not in my opinion, no. The possible exception would be for unfaded black jeans that were the casual portion of a "dressed up casual" celebrity look that very few people can pull off in a high end restaurant without looking like idiots (the inclusion of jeans would require a jacket, IMO, to prevent the outfit from being too informal).

It is interesting to observe just how much more NYers dress up than people in most other parts of the country. I was in a gig in the Southwest a few years ago, and one night several of us went out for dinner and drinks at what I was told would be some relatively nice places. I dressed in what I would consider casual bar scene clothes: faded blue jeans, polished black leather shoes (leather soles), an ironed white linen button-down shirt, a casual charcoal cotton vest and a casual unconstructed cotton sportcoat in grey-green. My colleagues considered this "really dressed up," and indeed it was not uncommon to run into people at the quasi-upscale bars we visited dressed in t-shirts, sweatpants and flipflops.

On preview: Bilrus, I think people are using "midwest" to signify "that big middle part of the country that is not attached to a coast."

[KNorthrup]

I would think that any restaurant that releases a cookbook is setting themselves up for (if not outright inviting) tourists.

I'm not sure I agree. Look at the French Laundry, Patricia Wells, etc.

Clarification - by tourists, I just mean nonlocals, not any sort of stereotype. Some restaurants prefer to go League of Gentlemen but I can't believe Keller doesn't welcome folks from all over.

[MatthewB]

I think people are using "midwest" to signify "that big middle part of the country that is not attached to a coast."

How did "the" "Midwest" get into this thread in the first place?

I still don't understand the following slkinsey comment . . .

all I am saying is that midwesterners who go into an NYC restaurant and expect their midwestern behavior to be met with a response that meets their midwestern expectations is a recipe for disappointment.

[Stone]

Sam,

Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant?

I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

Dress appropriately.

are jeans OK?

If they're clean; yes. (Thanks Calvin, for making jeans and a black t-shirt formal wear.)

[mikeycook]

I think people are using "midwest" to signify "that big middle part of the country that is not attached to a coast."

How did "the" "Midwest" get into this thread in the first place?

I still don't understand the following slkinsey comment . . .

all I am saying is that midwesterners who go into an NYC restaurant and expect their midwestern behavior to be met with a response that meets their midwestern expectations is a recipe for disappointment.

I agree. I am not sure what constitutes "midwestern behavior" or "midwest expectations". As a New Yorker, I am offended by the whole implication.

[slkinsey]

I agree there are bound to be some conflicts, but these conflicts should be minimized and handled graciously by the restaurant staff.  It is THEIR job to please the customer, NOT the other way around!   If a guest is blatantly out of line (i.e. getting wasted on Jaegermeister shots at the Babbo Bar) I wouldn't blame the staff for getting miffed and being less than hospitable.   But if a guy shows up from Des Moines in funny clothes and needs help figuring out the menu, he is still deserves the best service possible...

Oh, I agree. Where I think problems come up is when one encounters situations like customers coming to a place like Babbo with an 8:00 PM Saturday reservation and getting upset if their butts aren't in seats at the crack of 8:00; or customers with an 8:00 PM Saturday reservation at Babbo calling the day before and expecting to change their reservation to 9:30 or to add 5 more people without any problems; or customers coming to a restaurant like Babbo and getting upset that they were asked to order after they sat at their table for 30 minutes waiting for one of their party to arrive; or customers coming to a restaurant like Babbo and getting upset because they were not seated for 30 minutes because one or more of their party had not yet arrived; or customers getting upset because the maitre d' asked one of the gentlemen to put on a jacket before he was seated, etc. This could extend to a lot of other things. I know out of towners who get upset when the checkout person in the grocery store doesn't smile at them and engage them in conversation (this is not the cultural norm here). I know out of towners who have become incredulous and flabbergasted to learn that a medium-range restaurant in NYC doesn't offer a bottomless glass of iced tea all year 'round.

These are all things for which the cultural expectations would be very different at a similar kind of restaurant in, say, Duluth or Memphis. I hope this clarifies somewhat my earlier remark concerning "midwesterners who go into an NYC restaurant and expect their midwestern behavior to be met with a response that meets their midwestern expectations." Understand also that I am using "midwesterners" in the "not from a big metropolitan city or a culture that is largely formed around the influence of one" sense.

SlKinsey - I hear what you are saying about all this and am somewhat sympathetic as the WHY you think this social disconnect might be happening at Babbo.  I just can't agree that this should affect the service if the place were run properly.

Right. I don't necessarily disagree. Except that I will say that the cultural norm in NYC, especially with respect to restaurants, is rather different from most of the rest of the country. As a result, there will always be some complaints generated by cultural dissonance.

[Stone]

I'm glad that my parents moved me out of St. Louis when I was 1.

Stone,

In another recent thread, I mentioned that I hadn't gotten pissed off at many things I had read on eGullet and you said that i hadn't been reading your posts closely enough.

This time you got me. Who is to say those people were from the Midwest? Who is to say that any of the so-called 'TOurists' everyone so easily identifies as being from the Midwest are indeed from the Midwest.

I am from DC now, but lived in the aforementioned St. Louis for 22 years. I was raised properly as were most, but not all, of my friends and certainly know how to act in most social situations.

I am sure this is the case in cities and towns all across the midwest (and West, Norteast, Southeast and proablably Europe, Asia and everywhere else. Some people have social grace and some don't.

Aw, come on. I was just joking. All of my cousins in St. Louis dress and act very well. (Except my Aunt who still thinks that gold lame (sp?) track suits are appropriate to wear out of the house.)

It's funny, New Yorkers take a lot of shit from everyone else in the country. We're rude, overbearing, obnoxious, frenetic, impolite, unfriendly, demanding, narcisistic, degenerate, criminal, pompous, egotistical, and basically destroying the moral fabric of society.

But when we try to give it back a little,

Edited August 12, 2003 by Stone (log)