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Dave the Cook

Smoking Brisket: The Topic

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MsK: I responded to a similar posting on Chowhound in July 03, 2003 on the General Topic Board: "Slow Dry Roast for a Beef Brisket". This recipe response that I posted received over 30 positive email responses and i've also gotten email from posters who tried it for this Chanacuah with success.

This is a fall apart in the mouth, effective recipe.

If your not able to find this recipe, since i'm not computer savy enough to provide a link i'll attempt to one finger type in onto eGullet for your benefit.

Irwin

Save those digits Irwin.

This should help:

Maybe you could just cut and paste it right here on this board??

Irwin's Writings

woodburner

:rolleyes:

Cut & Paste is again something beyond my expertise. I'm able to dig out most things available on the internet, but most remedial things i've little or no experience in like utilizing links, scanning or digital photography. Eve4n my color printer is set up only for black.

Thank you very much for entering the link onto eGullet. I tried several times thru properties but wasn't successfull. Sometimes i'm lucky.

Irwin

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Smoked paprika (the good stuff from Spain) in the rub will contribute some smoke flavor.

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Smoked paprika (the good stuff from Spain) in the rub will contribute some smoke flavor.

Or ground chipotle, though usually you can't use it as liberally as paprika.

I second woodburner's warning about determining doneness. The best way I've found for determining this point, if you don't trust your sense of touch, is to track the temperature. It will level off soomewhere between 185 and 195. Be patient. Once the temperature starts rising again, you've fully converted all the collagen, and it's time to pull it.

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This is a fall apart in the mouth, effective recipe.

Irwin

Irwin,

It's my experience that at a finishing temperature of 215º, as you suggest, this meat is beyond slicing, but ok for shredding.

Is that your experience?

woodburner

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This is a fall apart in the mouth, effective recipe.

Irwin

Irwin,

It's my experience that at a finishing temperature of 215º, as you suggest, this meat is beyond slicing, but ok for shredding.

Is that your experience?

woodburner

Woodburner: Since I generally use a Whole Packer Trimmed Brisket for my method of cooking and not a leaner Flat cut trimmed brisket it requires the higher internal temperature to break down enough collegin, due to the additional fat cover on the brisket.

This was the temperture level used by the Winners of many of the Barbeque Cookouts that i've judged or researched on thru the years and it's also used often in Texas in Restaurants featuring Briskets.

If the Brisket is allowed to set after being brought to the temperature the Meat doesn't fall apart and slices easily starting from the point end to the finish. This is the same method using in cutting Deli Kosher Corned Beef, that if sliced differently also will shred.

This temperature is also generally used for many Pot Roasted Beef Cuts such as Bottom Round and Chuck or Shoulder Roasts that are also Sliced for Service.

It's also true that this temperture is correct for Shredding Beef and it's often done that way for many Mexican Dishes and Chilli's by just pulling or cross cutting and shredding, tastes good that way also, especially when sauced.

Irwin

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Don't sear! The crust formed will inhibit moisture transfer into the meat which is what you want to keep it tender.

Quite frankly I believe that you are wasting your time by your method.

We either slow smoke on a Weber(it can be done) with a dry rub with a whole briket with fat cap or brine with spices and saltpeter for a month and then cook ala corned beef.

If you must do it in an oven, I would dry rub for a couple of days, add a little liquid smoke and then put into a braising liquid(beer) and into the oven for a slow cook.-Fat cap, low heat and moisture are the keys to good brisket.

I have watched the indigenous people near 'Jake's' Deli on North Av in Milwaukee specifically ask for brisket with the fat on. I tried it and it's really good!-Dick


Edited by budrichard (log)

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Gotta tell ya. I am a major consumer of corned beef and brisket all my life. The first cut in my humble opinon is a recipe for disaster. First cut = saw dust. Get either the whole brisket or second cut with plenty of fat and cook it slow and low or in one of them bags. The first cut brisket with no fat whatsover is what all the markets I venture into have. It came about from all the older women who talk to deli men and butchers. They say I want brisket or corned beef without the fat because my husband has a heart condition and cannot take eat the fatty stuff. I say let them eat something tasty and die happy.

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Don't sear! The crust formed will inhibit moisture transfer into the meat which is what you want to keep it tender.

Quite frankly I believe that you are wasting your time by your method.

We either slow smoke on a Weber(it can be done) with a dry rub with a whole briket with fat cap or brine with spices and saltpeter for a month and then cook ala corned beef.

If you must do it in an oven, I would dry rub for a couple of days, add a little liquid smoke and then put into a braising liquid(beer) and into the oven for a slow cook.-Fat cap, low heat and moisture are the keys to good brisket.

I have watched the indigenous people near 'Jake's' Deli on North Av in Milwaukee specifically ask for brisket with the fat on. I tried it and it's really good!-Dick

budrichard: I agree that the Searing is not necesarry. However the poster that I responded to had requested that the Brisket have a Seared Exterior, that is may peoples preference.

Since the amount of time I had recommended searing wasn't long enough with any home Broiler to actually Char the Meat it would not have signifiently effected the absorbtion of the moisture as it may do in a open smoker, since there was always a moisture base during the entire cooking process.

The Dry Rubbing or Brine Soaking Methods of seasoning are only applicable if you wish to obtain a certain finish or taste to the Brisket.

I advised the party preparing the Brisket to season according to her own taste as well as suggested how she should utilize the liquid smoke application while reinterating that the outside would be as she wished.

Her response was that it was the best Brisket they'd ever eaten. The other responses were all very enthusiastic about the results.

I hope that someday i'll have the opportunity to enjoy a Brisket that you've prepared as it seems to be a labor of love that matches my love of eating. Having had the opportunity to Judge many competitions I still enjoy every chance to indulge in well smoked foods.

Irwin

Irwin

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Cut & Paste is again something beyond my expertise.

Crtl "C" is copy. Ctrl "X" is cut, Ctrl "V" is paste. Just highlight what you want, then use the Control keys. That puts it into the invisible clipboard. Then you can paste it anywhere you want. It's one of my mainstays.

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OK these suggestions all look great. Irwin, your suggested process is exactly the type I am looking for. I will be trying this again this weekend.

Does "Top Cut" = "Second cut" = " Top of the rib"? I think so but I'm just making sure.

So I should not sauce this until I have sliced the brisket after it has set? I plan to use a BBQ/Cayenne pepper sauce combination.

Wow 215 F internal temp, most other stuff I see says 180-195F, well I'll give it a go.

If I can't get this to work, then the next stof is the baking bag technique. Initially I thought it was going to be this go around but this technique seems promising.

Ill take pictures and post the results. Thanks alot.

Msk

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OK all thanks for the help here's how it looked.

i2523.jpg

It turned out great. They only change I'd make is to skip the broiling/searing part because at 210F internal temp, and a crispy crust, it was difficult to slice, even after letting it set for 15 minutes.

The side facing the water (shown in the pic) was more moist and the top a bit dry which made it so hard to slice.

If I could have gotten a brisket with the fat cap intact it also might have helped the top stay moist. Anyway, this tasted fantastic and was the type of brisket I was looking for. BBQ-style brisket, in an oven, without intense smoke flavor.

I think its just a matter of a couple of little tweaks at this point.

Thank you all so much.

Msk

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MSK:

Terrific picture.

If I knew that your were cooking a closely trimmed flat Brisket I would have recommended that your turn it several times during cooking. Another method would be to have had your butcher tie a fat cat to the top surface of the meat and allow to cook, as the draining melting fat cover would have keep the meat moister and more juicy.

Please check your knife edge for sharpness as well because i've never come across any cut of meat that wasn't easily sliced using any type of Meat Slicing Carving or Slicing Blade, I do prefer a Granton Edge as it slices neatly without sticking.. Even meat with thickly seared charred exteriors cuts smoothly.

With your results i'm sure that you'll tweak the meat exactly the way you want it to taste. If I ever require a Photographer to take a picture of anything cooked I hope your available.

If you've got trim or corners left over it's great for a beef hash.

Irwin :biggrin:

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What did you rub the brisket with initially?

3 part(s) paprika

2 part(s) salt

3 part(s) garlic powder

1 part(s) black pepper

2 part(s) onion powder

1 part(s) cayenne pepper

1 part(s) dried oregano

1 part(s) dried thyme

I make it in huge batches and use it for everything from fish to chicken to beef. The last two briskets I made I put on the rub 1-2 days ahead then vacuum-packed it. This one I just put in a ziploc after applying the rub (I was lazy).

This is also prior to saucing, which I made with BBQ-sauce, the reduced jus from the brisket, vinegar, and cayenne pepper sauce.

If you've got trim or corners left over it's great for a beef hash.

Leftovers? :biggrin: Sopping up those little bits with the sauce on the rest of the homemade foccacia was fantastic.

I'll take into consideration your added comments as it seems I can never find a brisket that isn't trimmed. Thanks again.

Msk

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Perhaps this belongs on a separate thread but I have a question about dry rub. I see some folks doing the Foodsaver vac wrap overnight with the rub and others just wrapping it with plastic. I was once advise that any cut of meat to be treated with dry rub should be immersed in water that's just off the boil for about 20 - 30 seconds and then drained before rubbing in the rub. The notion is that this brief flash of hot water opens the pores of the emat and allows the flavor of the rub to be drawn in more effectively. Have any of you tried this and what is your opinion? Please note that I am NOT recommeding parboiling - this immersion is so brief that it hardly even constitutes blanching.

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Phae,

What you describe is why people often use a Foodsaver in combination with a dry rub---to open the pores. The theory sounds reasonable to me, but I have never tried it, nor heard of it.

Msk

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Pores? Muscle and fat tissue doesn't have "pores". Vacuum processing may drive some seasoning deeper between the fibers but there are no pores. On a big piece of dense meat like brisket, I don't see any difference with dry rubs. I just let it go overnight in a zip lock bag, if I think about it. Different story with liquid marinades and less dense meat.

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Wow 215 F internal temp, most other stuff I see says 180-195F,  well I'll give it a go.

Each brisket is different and each brisket is done when it's done. Minutes per pound and internal temperature should only be used a guidelines. I barbecue packer cut briskets and find they are usually done somewhere in the range of 195F to 205F. When you can stick a fork into the flat and easily twist it, the flat is done. At that time, I remove the point and put it back in the pit for additional rendering. The point and the flat will never get done at the same time. If you don't want to use a two step process, buy untrimmed flats.

A trimmed flat is better used for a boiled dinner. Is the term "boiled dinner" something that people outside of New England understand?

Jim

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Pores? Muscle and fat tissue doesn't have "pores".

Jim, not sure what a "boiled dinner is." would you mind elaborating?

I will say I wish I had more fat on that brisket, there was some untrimmed fat on one spot on the top. It was very neet to see at the end that it had rendered off completely by the end of the cooking. I had bad visions of that gross fat part of a steak I got when I was a kid.

Msk

Thats interesting to know. I have read here and elsewhere that vacuum packing does increase the penetration of dry marinades. I will say I did not notice any difference this time without the vacuum packing.

I frequently see people refer to pores in meat, perhaps they are just referring to the gaps between muscle striations.

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Jim, not sure what a "boiled dinner is." would you mind elaborating?

Pot au feu. I Googled "New England Boiled Dinner" and most of the recipes called for corned beef and cabbage. I would have called that corned beef and cabbage.

Jim

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I know this may sound crazy, as a reccommendation, but it tastes great:

For that brisket your using,

Season it liberally with salt, pepper and sweet smoked paprika

5-6 white onions, thickly sliced into rings

1/2 cup dried cherries

2 12oz cans of coca-cola

1/4 cup white vinegar

marinate overnite

slowly braise it until fork tender, with all this stuff

While the meat rests

Reduce all the liquid until it becomes very thick, like a chutney

It's better with a little bit fattier cut of meat, and best on the smoker sans the paprika, but when it is too damn cold out to fire up the smoker ( or you live in the city, and the condo association is going to fine you $150 bucks if you use your smoker again) this works great.

PS two words, crock pot.

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i was watching a few bbq cook offs this weekend. i have a 8 lb brisket int the frdige i want to smoke. the champs say its takes about 12-14 hrs, i didn't catch their size. do you think it could be done in less time? i thought i had previously heard 5-6 hours

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In general, I've heard an hour per pound. Last week I smoked a 9-10 lb brisket for about 7 hours. It was certainly *done* but not fork tender, and to me, brisket should melt in your mouth and fall apart when gently teased. So I put it in the oven at 350 for another 3 hours, and it was just perfect. So, it did turn out to be about an hour per pound.

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Brisket takes about 1 to 1.5 hours per pound at 225 degrees. My target internal temperature is about 185 degrees. You can cook it faster, but you probably won’t like the results. You may also want to take a look at how fatty your brisket is to determine if you might want to wrap it during cooking. If you bought a brisket from which most of the fat has been trimmed off you may want to only smoke it for 5 hours. Then you might want to wrap it in aluminum foil and finish it in the oven until it reaches the right internal temperature. You can also wrap it and finish it in the smoker, but I wouldn’t spend the extra effort to keep the smoker going. I generally don’t wrap briskets that have a pretty good amount of fat on them, but with leaner briskets I prefer to wrap them to keep them from drying out. In any case I wouldn’t cook them too fast or too hot. Just a steady low, moist heat for a long, long time. Otherwise it will be too tough to be enjoyable.

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I'm pretty much in the same camp as fiftydollars. 1-1.5 hrs per lb. @ 225F. I go for an internal of 190F then remove from smoker, double wrap in foil, then wrap in an old large bath towel and put into a cooler for at least 1 hr (pour boiling water into cooler, close for 10 minutes then, drain, dry, and insert wrapped brisket).

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