Stock making: Proper ratios

[jsmeeker]

Much has been said about making stock. Types of stock. Methods of preperation. Reducing it. Storing it. Freezeing and re-freezing, etc. etc.

I collect chicken parts. Backs, carcasses, wings, etc. I toss 'em in the freezer, then take some out and make stock.. But I always "wing it". Put them in the lagest pot I have. Fill with water. Simmer. Later on, add some amount of miripoix. Everytime, I think I wind up with something different.

What I can't really figure out from all the discussion is a simple ratio for the primary ingrendients. Meat/bones, water, miripoix. If I have a given amount of bones/meat by weight, how much water should I be pouring into my pot? And how much miripoix do I need for that amount of meat. I.e. so much water for so many pounds of meat/bones. Miripoix is x percentage of meat/bones. Something like that. Something simple enough where I can weight out the bones, then use some simple math to figure out the rest.

Are there "standards" for this? I want stock that I can use for anything from soups to sauces. I'd like to know what it is for chicken stock, as that's all I have ever made since having chicken parts on hand is a by-product of normal cooking for me. But I'd also like to get ratios for beef, veal, or any other sort of stock.

[Fat Guy]

Pro Chef 8 (aka The Professional Chef, 8th Edition, from the Culinary Institute of America) proposes the following ratio:

8 pounds bones

1 gallon water

1 pound mirepoix

1 bouquet garni

The mirepoix, in turn, is 2:1:1 onions:carrots:celery

This is I think as good a formula as any.

[Dave the Cook]

I've settled on two pounds of protein per quart of finished stock, which, as I read it, is the same ratio as Pro Chef 8. (I don't use mirepoix.)

What's nice about this ratio is that you don't have to worry about exactly how much water you put in the pot. Just cover the contents, and when they're fully extracted, reduce the strained stock to the point where you've got the right volumetric result: six pounds of bones = three quarts of stock; nine = four-and-a-half.

Taken to the extreme (that would be me), two pounds of bones is reduced to four ounces and frozen in one-ounce portions, each of which can be reconstituted into one cup of stock.

[deltadoc]

Pro Chef 8 (aka The Professional Chef, 8th Edition, from the Culinary Institute of America) proposes the following ratio:

8 pounds bones

1 gallon water

1 pound mirepoix

1 bouquet garni

The mirepoix, in turn, is 2:1:1 onions:carrots:celery

This is I think as good a formula as any.

←

To the mathematically challenged, that 1 lb of mirepoix would equate to 1/2 lb of onions, 1/4 lb of carrots and 1/4 lb of celery.

So says my Pro Chef 7 too!

doc

[deltadoc]

I've settled on two pounds of protein per quart of finished stock, which, as I read it, is the same ratio as Pro Chef 8. (I don't use mirepoix.)

What's nice about this ratio is that you don't have to worry about exactly how much water you put in the pot. Just cover the contents, and when they're fully extracted, reduce the strained stock to the point where you've got the right volumetric result: six pounds of bones = three quarts of stock; nine = four-and-a-half. 

←

Using Gisslen's Professional Cooking, I just keep adding water to keep the bones covered during stock making. I brown my bones first really well. Then start with cold water and two stock pots. I brown my mirepoix about 6 hours into the stock making (for veal stock).

I did some calculations on my 2nd to last stock making adventure, and 40.1 lbs of veal bones yielded 19 quarts of veal stock. Nice color, no fat. A small amount of sediment, and very gelatinous. It shakes just like jello!

One thing that has always trouble me is this use of "several layers of cheesecloth" to strain the stock. I've tried it different times, and the stock just sits there and clogs the cheesecloth pretty quickly.

So over the years, I've given up on the cheesecloth and use a fine mesh chinois. My stock is never eaten as is, so a bit of sediment is lost in the recipe anyways!

Even the chinois clogs up, and after each filling of the chinois, after getting as much stock to go through it as I can by stirring with a wood spoon, I rinse out the chinois with fresh water, and start again until eventually all the stock has been strained this way.

Then we can it all.

Unfortunately, the last stock making adventure started with 44.1 lbs of New Zealand veal bones and a bunch of stock tipped over while in the chinois and hit me in the chest and stomach. Ripped off my shirt, put a dry one on, ripped off my socks, changed them too, and off to the clinic. At least 2-3 qts of stock hit me in the chest, but no scarring or blistering. One other time, just pulling two canning lids apart after they were in boiling water, left a pretty much birthmark looking scar on my chest. Go figure! I mean "Just how much boiling water can be inbetween two stuck together canning lids?"!

doc

[Chris Hennes]

Pro Chef 8 (aka The Professional Chef, 8th Edition, from the Culinary Institute of America) proposes the following ratio:

[...]

This is I think as good a formula as any.

←

I disagree on this point: I have never been fond of the Pro Chef stocks. I think they include far to much "other stuff" as compared to the amount of meat. I don't want a stock that tastes like mirepoix, I want one that tastes like chicken! I generally use half that amount of mirepoix, and go light on the carrots, which seem to have the most assertive flavor of the bunch in terms of "contaminating" the chicken flavor. Then again, maybe I just enjoy being contrary...

[meicjos41]

I'm just wondering how much people clean off the bones before roasting. Do you try to get must of the remaining meat off, or roast them with some of the meat on the bones?

[paulraphael]

I'm just wondering how much people clean off the bones before roasting.  Do you try to get must of the remaining meat off, or roast them with some of the meat on the bones?

←

The more meat still on the bones the better! Using bones is actually an economizing measure; stocks were traditionally made with piles of meat. If you have meaty bones, be happy.

The only thing I look out for is lots of marrow. Shin bones especially are packed with it. If I see a big volume of marrow I roast at a lower temperature, like 375°, so it doesn't burn before the meat and bones brown. A heavy, light colored roasting pan also helps.

[weinoo]

I'm sure that the meatiest parts were put to good use as a meal in itself - sort of like in a Bollito Misto. Or, you can strip the meatiest part off the bones once they're cooked, and return the bones to the pot for another couple of hours.

What about when to add the mirepoix? I usually add it when there's an hour or two left in the cooking process, rather than right at the beginning. That way it doesn't have the chance to pick up any of the impurities which might be cooking out of the protein.

[Octaveman]

I disagree on this point: I have never been fond of the Pro Chef stocks. I think they include far to much "other stuff" as compared to the amount of meat. I don't want a stock that tastes like mirepoix, I want one that tastes like chicken! I generally use half that amount of mirepoix, and go light on the carrots, which seem to have the most assertive flavor of the bunch in terms of "contaminating" the chicken flavor. Then again, maybe I just enjoy being contrary...

←

I'm with you on this too. I've had more stock attempts taste like the veggies than anythng else. While I've never made the stock without the mirepoix I use very little, one onion, half carrot, half celery. A good solid roasting is very beneficial.

[paulraphael]

What about when to add the mirepoix?  I usually add it when there's an hour or two left in the cooking process, rather than right at the beginning.  That way it doesn't have the chance to pick up any of the impurities which might be cooking out of the protein.

←

More significantly, mirepoix doesn't stand up to the extended cooking that the bones need. In the amount of time it takes to extract the flavor and gelatin from the bones, you'll extract the flavor of veggies and then cook most of it away.

I think putting it in 2 or 3 hours before the end is a good solution. And some people put in two batches; one halfway through cooking time, one closer to the end.

If you put in aromatics, I think the timing depends on each individual one (it's why I rarely make a traditional bouquet). Bay leaves can go in near the beginning; thyme can go in with a couple of hours to go, parsely can go in for the last few minutes. You can also omit them entirely and just add them when you make your final sauces.

[Chris Hennes]

You can also omit them entirely and just add them when you make your final sauces.

←

Bingo. I try to avoid adding a lot of flavors to my stocks: no need to have a complex, multidimensional stock as a base when you are going to go adding more stuff to it later in the process anyway. I try to keep mine as basic as possible so they are more flexible. It's not like I drink them straight or something.

[deltadoc]

For those who dislike the traditional onion:carrot:celery mirepoix in their stock, isn't there something called "white mirepoix" which omits the carrots and is meant for stocks like fowl and fish, rather than the heartier beef/veal stocks?

doc

[snowangel]

When I make stock, I tend to make it "naked" -- just chicken bones, gizzards, and feet. I reduce it just before using, adding a regular mirepoix, or a more Chinese version with ginger and scallions. The carrots just seem wrong for Chinese cooking.

[jsmeeker]

Pro Chef 8 (aka The Professional Chef, 8th Edition, from the Culinary Institute of America) proposes the following ratio:

8 pounds bones

1 gallon water

1 pound mirepoix

1 bouquet garni

The mirepoix, in turn, is 2:1:1 onions:carrots:celery

This is I think as good a formula as any.

←

Breaking this down more, I see that the ratio is

1 pound bones

1 pint water

2 oz. miripoix

Is that right?? In any case, what that really seems to imply to me is that the amount of water should equal the amoung of bones by weight. That's pretty easy to do. Of course, the amount of "finished" stock will be less. I guess I need to brush up on how to tell when the bones/meat are fully extracted.

I should weigh out what I have at home in the freezer and see how much water I will need. I am wondering if it might be time to buy a larger pot (largest pot I have now is a 7.25 qt. dutch oven). And maybe, suplement my leftover bones with some fresh chicken parts that actually have meat on them (or maybe even a small whole chicken)

[Chris Hennes]

I guess I need to brush up on how to tell when the bones/meat are fully extracted.

←

I just keep tasting it: after a while the flavor seems to "level off" and I call it done.

[Fat Guy]

Breaking this down more, I see that the ratio is 

1 pound bones

1 pint water

2 oz. miripoix

Is that right??  In any case, what that really seems to imply to me is that the amount of water should equal the amoung of bones by weight.  That's pretty easy to do.

That conversion sounds right to me.

Of course, the amount of "finished" stock will be less.

That depends. If you don't want it to be less, you can periodically top it off with water to maintain the same liquid amount. That ratio should provide a very flavorful stock without any reduction. But if your next step is going to be that you're going to reduce the strained stock, that's another story.

I am wondering if it might be time to buy a larger pot (largest pot I have now is a 7.25 qt. dutch oven).

I definitely recommend a bigger pot. Stock-making is no more difficult or time-consuming as you scale up in quantity. So if you can make more per batch you can do it less often. Stock freezes so well that it's worth just making as much as you can per batch.

[Fat Guy]

The ratio I wind up using is slightly off from the CIA-recommended ratio. It's more like 10:7 (10 pounds of chicken parts to 7 quarts of water). This ratio was not really arrived at scientifically. It's just that when I make stock I usually buy 4 of these approximately 2.5-pound packages of chicken parts that they sell at the place where I do my grocery shopping. At 50 cents a pound for Murray's chicken parts it's a great deal. The parts are mostly backs, frames and necks and have a ton of gelatin-providing bones as well as flavor-providing meat.

Then I add the mirepoix, less than half as much by weight as the stock -- probably more like 1/3 -- but I mostly do it by feel. There's a lot of leeway here, by the way. Also, my mirepoix can vary by the intended use of the stock. For example, this one was going to be made into chicken soup, so I added mirepoix and herbs. For some intended uses the herbs would probably not be desirable, and for others I might dispense with mirepoix altogether. I have also taken to adding a tablespoon of salt or so to the pot, even though I'm not sure there's a reason to.

Anyway . . . once I've done all that I just fill the rest of the pot with water. This is a 16-quart stockpot. It comfortably held about 7 quarts of water on top of the solid ingredients -- that of course doesn't all quite come up to the lip of the pot. You're only going to put so much in a pot, so its rated capacity is always greater than its usable capacity.

And I did top off periodically with water, so in the end I had about as much as when I started.

[jsmeeker]

I think I'll swing by my local restaurant supply store and obtain a 16 to 20 qt stock pot. Is plain aluminium OK for this? They seem to be much less expensive than the stainless steel models they have available.

I'll wind up with way more stock than I typically make, but if I take the trouble to reduce it down, that can address storage issue. Normally, I prefer to have "regular strength" on hand just so I can work with it directly. Makes things a little easier, IMHO..

[Fat Guy]

I do not recommend plain aluminum. It's just less versatile. When you clean it you scratch the heck out of it, and you probably won't want to use it to make anything seriously acidic. I had two aluminum stockpots and upgraded to stainless. The aluminum ones are in my basement, languishing -- 20 quarts of unrealized potential each. Were they not so bulky I'd mail one to you.

[jsmeeker]

Nuts. I was worried about that. In that case, I need to seek out a less expensive stainless model. The restaurant supply store wants $110 for an 18 qt. stainless pot.

[AEK]

Nuts.  I was worried about that.    In that case, I need to seek out a less expensive stainless model.  The restaurant supply store wants $110 for an 18 qt. stainless pot.

←

Target has decent stainless steel stockpots in their 'chefmate' line. I think a 16 qt one is about 40 bucks.

Edited November 13, 2008 by AEK (log)

[paulraphael]

I'm happy with my plain aluminum 20qt stock pot.

True that it's less versatile than stainless, but this hasn't been an issue. It gets used for making stock and poaching turkeys ... nothing acidic. Heats very evenly (it's about 6mm thick) and was cheap.

I'd rather have a similar quality stainless one with a disk bottom, but all the ones I've seen cost much more. I saved the money for sexier cookware.

If you plan to do more with yours ... like make 16 quarts of chili ... then by all means pony up for the stainless.

[Fat Guy]

My 20-quart stainless stockpot from A. Best Kitchen (not the Le Creuset shown above) in Chicago cost $59.

http://www.akitchen.com/store/stock-pots.html

I've had it for many years now. The price hasn't changed in something like a decade. If you get it shipped there's that expense as well, but there should be similar pots available in other large markets.

[Shalmanese]

I do it somewhat unconventionally by first making a meat only stock at first. Once I've strained out the meat and skimmed off the fat, I'll put it back on the stove with a fine dice of vegetable and set it on a hard boil for 3 minutes to reduce in volume by 1/3 to 1/2.

This way, the vegetables stay fresh and vibrant right through to the end of the process.