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I don't get the point of unbrowned meat


Shalmanese

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I submit that there is not a single dish in existence which would not be improved by changing it so the meat is browned rather than unbrowned. I know all about cantonese steeped chicken and new england boiled dinners. I've heard all the rapturous praise about the subtle, complex flavours of pot au feu or bollito misto. But I find myself consistently underwhelmed by any dish that does not involve sigfnificant amounts of maillard reaction.

Tonight, I had a hankering for poulet au pot and it hit home to me that it was just not a dish that I could enjoy. Yes, I made it correctly, yes there was the requisite layers of subtle, chickeny flavours. But it was all so boring and staid.

Boiling, steaming and poaching are great for vegetables, fish, grains and meats which have been previously browned but I'll always be reaching for the frying pan, deep fryer or oven when I'm faced with a chunk of raw meat.

PS: I am a guy.

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I submit that there is not a single dish in existence which would not be improved by changing it so the meat is browned rather than unbrowned.

Chicken salad?

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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I submit that there is not a single dish in existence which would not be improved by changing it so the meat is browned rather than unbrowned.

Chicken salad?

Actually Steven, This applies to Chicken salad too. I took a hint from Ina Garden ( Barefoot Contessa) who said she's tested every single way to make chicken for chicken salad and roasting bone-in breasts was the best.

Its super easy too and the meat is very flavorful( I use a no-salt chicken blend on the breasts before roasting). Bonus is the already roasted bones for stock.

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I'm with you on this one - every time I make a dish the 'authentic way' without browning the meat (I'm thinking of tagines, most thai curries, some stews) I find something missing.

I'm wondering if some of these classic recipes didn't brown the meat because of any culinary reasons, but for reasons of economy? For one it may require use of oil/butter, and also requires initial high heat?

P.S I always do poulet au pot in the oven, and remove the lid for the last 20-30 minutes.

I love animals.

They are delicious.

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It probably is more a question of taste than anything else. We all have a very different palate.

One of the many things browning is to imparting a slight bitterness. Some find that this is a defect, many think of it as adding a desired complexity to the dish. One thing is sure though, browning the meat ensure that the flavours will be bold.

I like meat both ways... the result is simply different.

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Thought the same thing last night while watching the Travel Channel's "Hamburger Paradise", wherein they showed an establishment in the northeast with steamed cheeseburgers. Steamed gray hamburger meat? No way. Sounds like the stuff of high school cafeterias.

...wine can of their wits the wise beguile, make the sage frolic, and the serious smile. --Alexander Pope

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Thought the same thing last night while watching the Travel Channel's "Hamburger Paradise", wherein they showed an establishment in the northeast with steamed cheeseburgers.  Steamed gray hamburger meat?  No way.  Sounds like the stuff of high school cafeterias.

Did you see the one where they fried the burgers in old grease from 1912? It didn't look like they got browning on those and they did look super greasy.

Edited by CDRFloppingham (log)
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My first reaction was to agree with you but a Moroccan Chicken with olives wouldn't be right with browned chicken.

On the other hand I have never had a desire to try Jeremiah Tower's poached fillet. It sounds awful to me.

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I submit that there is not a single dish in existence which would not be improved by changing it so the meat is browned rather than unbrowned.

Chicken salad?

Actually Steven, This applies to Chicken salad too. I took a hint from Ina Garden ( Barefoot Contessa) who said she's tested every single way to make chicken for chicken salad and roasting bone-in breasts was the best.

Does she include the skin? I've heard the argument for roasted chicken but the way I've heard it the idea is that cooking the chicken bone- and skin-on holds in the moisture. But then the skin and bones are discarded. So there's nothing browned in the chicken salad. Just moist, white, boneless, skinless chicken chunks. My guess -- not that I've tried it -- is that chicken salad with skin would be kind of gross.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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The reason I'm harping on the chicken salad example is that I'm trying to establish basic refutation of the hypothesis (which only requires one solid example), however I don't even think the claim is true as a general sense. There are in my opinion whole categories of dishes that taste better when not browned. For example, soup. Chicken soup with skin -- particularly browned skin -- just wouldn't be right. In addition, there are a lot of dishes where there's a flavor you don't want overwhelmed by browning. For example, earlier this year during truffle season I was at L'Absinthe, a French place here in New York, and had this dish:

gallery_1_295_1230.jpg

There are a few reasons why roasted/browned chicken would have been the wrong choice for this dish. First, because those browned-skin flavors would have competed too much with the truffles. Second, because the dish is basically served in a broth a crispy skin would have been made soggy. Finally, the chicken is cooked in a broth, which infuses it with flavors that probably wouldn't come through in a roasting scenario.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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I make a lamb curry in which the meat is marinated with yogurt, lemon juice and spices overnight then cooked in the marinade the next day. While browning the meat might add to the flavor profile, I can't see any practical way to do that. And it has plenty of flavor, so I've never seen a need to change it.

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i think sous vide cooking might challenge mr maillard in the future

I don't know about that. Most of the recipes I've seen for sous vide meat call for it to be browned (usually in a very hot pan or with a blowtorch) before or, preferably, after being cooked in the water bath.

Steak tartare, on the other hand, provides ample refutation of the original hypothesis, which presumably needs to be amended to, "there is not a single cooked dish in existence which would not be improved by changing it so the meat is browned rather than unbrowned."

Matthew Kayahara

Kayahara.ca

@mtkayahara

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I just asked a question about browning in the Braised Brisket Cook-Off. I don't think I've ever browned a brisket (and I've cooked plenty) before braising, though I do brown all other roasts before braising. I don't think the briskets lack anything for it.

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I just asked a question about browning in the Braised Brisket Cook-Off.  I don't think I've ever browned a brisket (and I've cooked plenty) before braising, though I do brown all other roasts before braising.  I don't think the briskets lack anything for it.

I've had brisket both ways, and the only way I make it now is to brown it well before braising. Huge improvement in the flavor, in my opinion. :biggrin:

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Browning meat is a good idea, I agree. But I often skip that step when braising shanks in the slow cooker at home, particularly if it's going to be a curry. The shape of a goat or lamb shank makes it difficult to brown easily without using a lot of oil, and the slow cooker I use means another browning pan to clean. I find these curries to have color, flavor and texture that overshadow any benefits from prior browning -- the returns are just too diminished.

Peter Gamble aka "Peter the eater"

I just made a cornish game hen with chestnut stuffing. . .

Would you believe a pigeon stuffed with spam? . . .

Would you believe a rat filled with cough drops?

Moe Sizlack

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I submit that there is not a single dish in existence which would not be improved by changing it so the meat is browned rather than unbrowned.

Chicken salad?

For me, chicken salad has to be with a roasted chicken, and if I had my way, I'd use only the dark meat altogether. But I usually use the pan juices (or what collects in the bottom of the plastic boat when I buy a roasted chicken) to moisten the white meat chunks, or else I use the juices by mixing them into the mayo to lend their "browned" flavor to the salad, but either way it amounts to the same thing.

I do love a boiled chicken dinner, and I love (un-browned) boiled meats, and actually appreciate them for the contrast they provide to "browned" foods.

It's just that I don't like chicken salad without the roasted chicken flavor.

Overheard at the Zabar’s prepared food counter in the 1970’s:

Woman (noticing a large bowl of cut fruit): “How much is the fruit salad?”

Counterman: “Three-ninety-eight a pound.”

Woman (incredulous, and loud): “THREE-NINETY EIGHT A POUND ????”

Counterman: “Who’s going to sit and cut fruit all day, lady… YOU?”

Newly updated: my online food photo extravaganza; cook-in/eat-out and photos from the 70's

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If you put browned meat in the chicken salad it would probably be disgusting. Flavoring unbrowned meat with pan juices is a different scenario.

With respect to braised brisket and browning, I just tried a direct comparison in December and found no appreciable difference.

I started with two briskets as close to the same as I could find:

gallery_1_295_43281.jpg

I browned one and didn't brown the other:

gallery_1_295_3351.jpg

gallery_1_295_11911.jpg

(I browned it a bit more than that -- that's a photo in progress)

I braised them in matching pots with the same amount of beef stock in each:

gallery_1_295_69042.jpg

I then cooled each, separated the meat from the stock, refrigerated overnight, defatted the stock, sliced the meat and reheated the meat in a reduction of the stock. It was possibly possible to tell the two apart, but not by flavor. The browned one had drier edges and that was about it.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Steak tartare, on the other hand, provides ample refutation of the original hypothesis, which presumably needs to be amended to, "there is not a single cooked dish in existence which would not be improved by changing it so the meat is browned rather than unbrowned."

I've been making a couple of chicken dishes - one steeped, one steamed - for years - browning just wouldn't work for them.

Is roasting a chicken the same as browning the bird? Or are they two different processes?

Edited by Shel_B (log)

 ... Shel


 

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I grew up with some very special Sunday meals of boiled beef in the Austrian tradition along with boiled potatoes and horseradish sauce. I have not had a decent one in a long time but I remember the sweetness of the the meat contrasted with the sharpness of horseradish (thinned with sour cream, and bare touches of vinegar and sugar) Considering that I am a butcher's daughter (specializing in beef) and a fiend for the well done bits of all roasts, it is alot for me to say this particular dish was special enough without the window dressing of browning.

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There's room in my world for both browned and un-browned. I love the depth of flavor that comes from searing or roasting meat. No doubt about it, the Maillard effect adds a lot of flavor. And sometimes the crisp exterior of roasted or grilled meat is part of the appeal. But I see a place for steamed or poached meats as well.

One of my favorite ways to prepare pork ribs is to steam them Chinese style. Put cross-cut (flanken-style) ribs in a shallow dish with some chopped-up fermented black beans, garlic, chili pepper, soy sauce, and shao xing wine. Steam in a bamboo steamer for about ten minutes. Drizzle with sesame oil and scatter some thinly slice green onions on top. Delicious.

On the other hand I have never had a desire to try Jeremiah Tower's poached fillet. It sounds awful to me.

Not sure if it was from Tower, but I remember hearing about poached beef fillet some years ago. I tried it out - poached the fillet in a nicely clarified consommé. The pinkish-gray color of the meat may be a problem for some, but I have to say that the flavor was wonderful. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. :wink:

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