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Damascus patterns


Shalmanese

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Some people think food is less likely to stick to the slight texture. But some people think it's more likely to stick. Most consider it pure decoration.

There are a few makers of true damascus blades out there. In this case it's one way among many to get both hardness and resilience out of a blade. I've never used one of these knives though; they start at around ten times my budget!

Notes from the underbelly

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I asked Chad Ward about them in his recent eGullet Q&A: here is his response. I have read on Bob Kramer's site that they do cut slightly differently due to what are in effect micro-serrations at the edge of the blade where the layers of steel come together, but that they are not, strictly-speaking, "better," just different.

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

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The damascus pattern would only effect the knife edge in a true damascus ($$$$$) knife.

Worse than the price is the availability! There are only two bladesmiths in North America making them (at least, as far as I know), one being Bob Kramer, who is backordered for three years and isn't taking any more orders until he gets caught up! They cost over $1000 for a chef's knife.

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

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The common damascus clad knives use a steel for the core which is harder than what is used in most kitchen knives. So in that respect it's likely better than average. But I doubt there is any practical difference with a good knife made all from the same steel.

But ... I smile every time I pick mine up and look at it before working. And that definitely counts for something.

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The common damascus clad knives use a steel for the core which is harder than what is used in most kitchen knives.

But this has nothing to do with the damascus pattern. There are lots of clad knives that use regular soft/resilient stainless steel on the outside of a hard knife steel core. The real comparison should be with knives of a similar quality, either clad or solid.

Notes from the underbelly

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The common damascus clad knives use a steel for the core which is harder than what is used in most kitchen knives.

But this has nothing to do with the damascus pattern. There are lots of clad knives that use regular soft/resilient stainless steel on the outside of a hard knife steel core. The real comparison should be with knives of a similar quality, either clad or solid.

But the point is to answer the question of the O.P. She (he?) asked if there is any difference between a "damascus style" knife and a "plain old metal" one. I wanted to point out that the steel the edge uses in the commonly available Shun or Hattori knives is in general harder than what is used in other knives.

My apologies that you weren't able to understand me.

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Actually, as I re-read Shalmanese's original post, I realized that I am not entirely clear on what the question is... Shalmanese, are you looking for a comparison between a "true" damascus and a similarly high-quality non-Damascus blade (perhaps made with exotic steels, etc.)? Or between a clad and an unclad blade of basically the same construction? Or something else entirely?

I would think (just guessing here) that at a comparable price point the non-Damascus blade is going to wind up the "better" blade for certain definitions of "better" (i.e. not counting aesthetics). You can get some pretty serious exotic steels in the $1k+ price range that will probably sharpen better, hold the edge longer, etc. than a real Damascus blade. There is the issue of the micro-serration thing that Bob Kramer talks about, and he obviously is way more knowledgeable than I am, but since even he doesn't claim they are "better," just "different," and he is comparing them to his regular carbon steel blades, I would guess that the super-high-end exotics are going to win. YMMV, etc.

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

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...is there a noticeable difference in sharpness or performance between a damascus style blade and a plain metal one?

Hi,

I think the question may concern four types of knives, of comparable price.

1. A Damascus STYLE knife.

2. A knife with a single layer of stainless cladding.

3. A stainless knife with no cladding.

4. A carbon knife with no cladding.

Tim

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I'm confused. I'm with Chris. We need clarification from the OP. By "damascus" do you mean 100% damascus blade or damascus clad? Do you have any specific knives you're referring to or thinking of?

Generally speaking, the knives on the market that are not custom ordered full-on damascus blades are damascus clad and they serve no purpose other than easthetics. Hattori/Ryusen/Ittosai/Kikuichi damscus clad knives are all made by the same company and are very smooth to the touch. Shun classic is not smooth having a tactile feel to it. There is also Al Mar, Kumagoro, Fujitora (Tojiro), Sakon, Asai, Kansui just to name a few that also make damascus clad or sumingashi (ink pattern) knives. Basically, performance with damascus/sumingashi clad knives will rest with the core steel when it comes to initial contact with food. The cladding will have little affect on performance beyond that.

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When I was working on my Master's degree in metalsmithing, I did a brief internship with two noted bladesmiths, Tony Swatton and Jim Hrisoulas

From Jim's site:

Pattern welding, commonly (and mistakenly) know as "Damascus" is a process that involves heat, sweat, time and skill. There are numerous bladesmiths today that are unable to master its intricacies and subtleties, but it is not "impossible" to do.

The pattern welding process involves an intimate knowledge of forge practice and a great deal of skill in order to get precise, beautiful and breathtaking patterns in the steel. Attention to detail, working techniques and material selection are all important pieces in the pattern welding puzzle.

A properly forged pattern welded blade is a thing of beauty and deadly purpose. Legendary in its ability to cut and "stay together", these blades are the ultimate test of the bladesmith's art. We are proud to present what have been called the "finest pattern welded blades available today".

Each blade is forged, welded and patterned by hand, and our patterns are precise and exacting.

Edited by Pam R (log)
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Clarification: I've been looking at a lot of Japanese Santoku's around the $100 range. Some of them have the swirly patterns on the blade whether you want to call it damascus or sumigashi or whatever. My question is, are the swirly patterns on the knife a purely cosmetic feature or is there some metallurgical reason for having them on there?

I have to admit, for whatever reason, damascus blades justt look sharper to me but are they actually sharper?

PS: I am a guy.

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At that price point, its a reasonable supposition that the patterns are there purely for decorative/marketing effect.

The swirls on a $100 knife will be in the form of a cladding layer, rather than having been produced in the forging of the blade.

However, the presence of some form of cladding (plain or swirly) may well have a metallurgical/engineering function.

However, as to being 'sharper', remember that the cladding doesn't extend to the cutting edge of the blade...

Edited by dougal (log)

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

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I have to admit, for whatever reason, damascus blades justt look sharper to me but are they actually sharper?

My assumption is closer to the opposite! Creating that pattern costs money. No matter how automated the process (and in a $100 knife, it's done completely by machine), it's going to be more expensive to make the decorative cladding than to make a plain, purely functional cladding--like regular type 405 stainless.

So think about two $100 knives, one with damascus and one with plain cladding. The makers of the latter knife had more money left over for other parts of it. Like the core steel, the fit and finish, the grinding of the edge, etc. etc...

At any price point, I think you tend to find better performance in things that are simple, as opposed to things with decorative flourishes and bells and whistles. There are exceptions here and there, but I think that's a good general principle.

Notes from the underbelly

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Well, go back to my first post. If you spend $100 on a shun you will get a knife whose edge is made from harder steel than a knife from most other $100 knives. Chad Ward suggests it's perfectly feasible to sharpen to 15 degrees with the harder steel, whereas he recommends 20 for the softer steel. Seems pretty clear they CAN be sharper and maintainable.

However, Paul might be right. My Shuns factory edge lost its sharpness much faster than I've experienced with a Wusthof or similar knife. Though that might have been because I was honing it with an inappropriate steel. You shouldn't use a regular grooved steel on a knife with the harder steel. Supposedly it causes the edge to chip.

But, as I also said above, I love the sexy look and it makes me feel good just picking it up.

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Well, go back to my first post.  If you spend $100 on a shun you will get a knife whose edge is made from harder steel than a knife from most other $100 knives.

The OP was interested in Santokus, right? I don't think it's true about $100 knives if you look at other Japanese brands. Just a quick look at Korin and JCK showed plenty of knives in this price range from makers like Misono, Hiromoto, Glestain, Mac, Tojiro, and Suisin. I'm sure you could find lots more. Who has the hardest or best steel is always up for discussion, but all the ones I saw are made with excellent, hard knife steels, either stainless or very high carbon. The cheaper shuns look like a very good value, but one thing for sure is that carbon steel edge on the Hiromoto will completely spank the edge on the Shun.

But there are bigger issues with geometry. The shuns are made with blade thicknesses closer to what you'd expect from a German knife. Some people like this; others don't. I sense that a lot people who like the way Japanese knives perform don't like it. These issues are much more significant than the effect of any texture of the cladding.

If you like the damascus look, then great. You have a gazillion options. Just know that this choice is generally unrelated to performance, and that you might expect to pay a bit for it.

Edited by paulraphael (log)

Notes from the underbelly

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