Children and High-End London Restaurants

[baphie]

We are going to London in May 2003 and were wondering about the policies and practices for London restaurants like Gordon Ramsay's. Our son will be 4 and has been dining in top restaurants in the US and Europe since he was three weeks old.

Do some of the restaurants in London have a straightfoward no kids < XX years policy?

Thanks for any help you can provide,

A.

[Wilfrid]

What did you do when he was approximately two years old, Baphie? Nail him to the chair? Handcuffs? Knockout drops? Any tips would be appreciated.

[baphie]

What did you do when he was approximately two years old, Baphie?  Nail him to the chair?  Handcuffs?  Knockout drops?  Any tips would be appreciated. 

We have never had that much of a problem. I don't know if it is conditioning- I was being literal when I said we started at 3wks old- or just luck. He actually behaves worse at lesser restaurants.

Our main trick is to have a bag of toys and treats. We bring crayons and colouring books, but there is almost always a new toy that he hasn't seen before. Lately we have let him pick out the toy knowing he won't get to play with it until we go to the restaurant. Our secret weapon is Legos,

particularly the mini-Lego kits like dinosaurs or Harry Potter. It takes a few minutes to assemble and he will spend a good amount of time playing with it and taking it apart. At 1.5-2, I think his favorite things at the table were new books that had lots of flaps or pulls or other things he could discover.

Also he doesn't get candy on a regular basis, so those make nice treats especially a candy that involves some play like character-shaped "fruit" jellies.

A.

[Wilfrid]

Thanks for that. Our two year old is fine for half an hour, then goes crazy. Which rules out lengthier dining experiences right now. We'll think about some of those tricks.

[Gavin Jones]

Heston Blumenthal of the Fat Duck has just published a book on Family Food and appears to offer a range of 'child-format' food (lollipops &c.) so that might be appropriate.

(I have not dined at his establishment/s).

[Tonyfinch]

Why do you want to take him? What is he a fashion accessory? Restaurants lile Gordon Ramsey are not for such young children whether they allow them there or not. They are serious restaurants for adult dining. There are plenty of other places to take young children. I have a six year old son and I wouldn't dream of subjecting him to an experience so beyond his ability to appreciate.

[Wilfrid]

Don't be grouchy, Tony. There are obvious reasons one might want to take a child along to an adult experience - perhaps most obviously, you have to do something with them, and unknown babysitters in a strange city are not every mother's idea of a worthwhile gamble.

[Tonyfinch]

Well if the problem is practical like there's nothing else but to take him,well maybe.But I wouldn't do it. I'd rather postpone my fine dining ambitions until I wasn't so encumbered. Apart from anything else I don't want to have to be fussing about keeping my child amused,no matter how well behaved he is, when I'm in one of the world's top restaurants. I want to focus all my attentiion and concentration on the dining experience before me,not fishing around for his crayons and his Harry Potter colouring in book in between mouthfuls of my amuse bouche.

[Vanessa]

Tony - what absolute rubbish! Of course a child of 6 is able to appreciate a good restaurant. The problem is with your, and other adults' perceptions and behaviour, not the child's.

v

[Bux]

Hey the Fat Duck is not everyone's idea of a worthwhile gamble.

Although to be truthful, I loved it with the single exception of finding the main course a bit too sweet for my taste. A problem Heston shares with many chefs these days and I may well end up having to adjust my palate.

While I deplore making little adults out of little kids, I am all for including them in more of our life. We did not have the economic option of traveling well on a comfrotable budget when our daughter was four, but she was certainly an eager diner in a fine restaurants before she was a teenager. I found a period at around two and four that were particularly trying, but by four, she was already adept at picking the best places for showdown confrontations and quite an excellent bargainer. With the prices of toys these days, I suspect you won't find your young 'un a cheap date, Wilfrid.

[baphie]

Why do you want to take him? What is he a fashion accessory? Restaurants lile Gordon Ramsey are not for such young children whether they allow them there or not. They are serious restaurants for adult dining. There are plenty of other places to take young children. I have a six year old son and I wouldn't dream of subjecting him to an experience so beyond his ability to appreciate.

The nasty answer is that if he is not bothering anyone else, what difference does it make why we bring him?

The practical answer is that we are going to be visiting London and driving around the UK. Part of our travel experience is visiting restaurants like GR as well as 'childish' things. A random sitter in London is not an option we like.

The more philsophical answer is that we believe in doing things as a family. If I thought that visiting GR would be an outrageously painful experience for him, I wouldn't do it. Given the 'you-must-dine-in-two-hours' seating policies I have heard about, it will be a cakewalk compared to some previous outings. Maybe he doesn't 'appreciate' the experience on the same level at you or I might, but he does enjoy it a lot. He loves new spaces. He loves to see kitchens and food. And, at only 1.5 years old, the way his eyes lit up and he said 'sotto!' when his risotto arrived, I often wonder who loves the food more.

A.

[Tonyfinch]

Stuff and nonsense Vanessa. The child's behaviour is not the issue. Top class restaurants are not for children. There are plenty of other restaurants to take children to.

[Tonyfinch]

The nasty answer is that if he is not bothering anyone else, what difference does it make why we bring him?

My answer to that is that it would make a difference to ME. I love doing all kinds of things with my son,including going to restaurants but there are some things which I keep for me-adult time if you like. When it comes to going out to expensive restaurants my view is "sorry pal but this is not one for you" And it's not that it would be so awful for him if he did come,but he would be resolutely indifferent to the quality and make it a less full on experience for me.

You obviously feel differently-good for you.

[cabrales]

I don't mean to sound discouraging and I am not indicating that GR RHR does not permit children of the age in question. However, I have never seen a child that age at GR RHR, La Tante Claire or The Square. In fact, I have never seen a child (as opposed to a teenager) at GR RHR. I have seen an apparently slightly older child at GR Claridge's, although it was during a lunch meal, and I have also seen families at Waterside Inn during lunch. However, Claridge's is not at the same level as RHR by any stretch.

I consider a given child's behavior potentially relevant, but I agree with Tony that bringing a child to RHR or La Tante Claire would be quite out-of-the-ordinary. That being said, if a diner is very interested in sampling RHR and there is no sitter who is trustworthy, perhaps a call to RHR to gently inquire would be the next step.

I searched Zagat 2003, London for the special category of "Young Children" and facilities with a rating of 25 or higher, and received only River Cafe and Zafferano. When I was at the River Cafe (which requires taking the subway to the suburb of Hammersmith and then a quick taxi ride) and also does not compare to certain restaurants described above, I did see children during weekend lunch. For Zafferano, note that Locatelli is now at locanda locatelli, which is not necessarily a friendly environment for children of the age of 6.

Tony and others -- Do you consider the three restaurants in Ludlow as being potentially more accustomed to children around the age of 6?

[SamanthaF]

IMHO I don't think it is particularly fair to the child or other diners in 'top' resaurants.

For the child - Is it really suitable to give them such rich food at such a young age? Sauces are often heavily laden with alcohol.

For other diners - Just how nice would it be for a piece of flying Lego to land in the middle of your souffle? Or in the case of babies, just how appetising would it be to walk into the bathroom in the middle of a nappy change?

The Time Out 2003 guide states that GR @ RHR's policy for children is "children admitted" however Time Out states in its intro that ""Babies and Children admitted" implies a degree of reluctance on the part of the restauranteur to admit babies/ and or children, or a lack of facilities for them...." The TOG states the child policy for every restaurant it reveiws, so I'd suggest an investment in it.

[Andy Lynes]

I am with Tony and Samantha on this. A child that is perfectly behaved for 2 or 3 hours and does not impinge in anyway on the pleasure of those around them for that duration of time is one in a million, and should be treasured. As a general rule however, young children should be kept well away from "fine dining" restaurants in my opinion.

Adults need a break from their own and everybody elses kids once in a while, and I personaly relish those rare occassions when my wife and I can put childish things away for an hour or two. I would be less than happy to walk into GR and be greeted by the site of a small child. Even if they were well behaved, I would be just waiting for it all to go off, which it surely would.

[Wilfrid]

Poor Baphie. The question was about whether top London restaurants have age restrictions, not whether everyone could provide advice on whether Baphie junior should be a member of the party or not.

What a presumptuous lot you are.

[Andy Lynes]

Well, I think the question begged the debate really, and Samantha has provided an answer (thanks Samantha). Right, now back to the griping......

[baphie]

Thanks Samantha for the info. I am planning to call/fax, but wanted to find out if bringing our son was even in the realm of possibility. We would prefer to not take him and may in fact have my mother-in-law fly in from Cyprus to meet us in London. The trip is still six months away and we need to evaluate all the possibilities.

Attitudes as well as policies were what I soliciting. I am not going to say my child is perfect, but we have on several occasions got compliments on his behaviour in sitting through at 3.5-4 hr meal. I don't think (at least in this arena) he is 'one in a million.' We know other parents who have the same experience.

What is find interesting is the expectation that child ==> trouble. Sure, all the hypotheticals _could_ happen. But is a Lego tossed really any different than knocked over wine from another table which splashed on my dish? (Not a hypothetical.) Or a nappy change in the toilet really so different than an unflushed, clogged toilet or someone throwing up (the latter being me actually after food poisoning earlier in the day)? Is the presence of a child really worse than a pair of drunk Americans with their whores? (Again, not a hypothetical.)

I do understand the desire to have the realm of the gourmand experience as a time to be away from the world of children and we do enjoy that. What I don't understand is the absolute seperation on which some insist.

A.

[Andy Lynes]

I think it's a matter of finding the appropriate level of dining where the presence of children is generaly deemed acceptable. The trouble is that views will differ greatly as to what that might be.

I do think that children misbehaving is an entirely seperate matter from adults "misbehaving". Kids stick out like a sore thumb in certain restaurants and therefore their activities will be magnified because of the attention they will attract. This is not the case with adults, unless they are very loud and/or very drunk.

[LaNiña]

I was taken to fine restaurants in New York and in Europe from a *very* young age. I grew up loving and appreciating fine dining. If one can be fairly sure that one's child will be well behaved, then go right ahead and bring the kids - of course if a child is bound to disturb other diners, then it's inappropriate, but it's ridiculous to say so generally that fine dining is not for children - why???

[torakris]

As long as the restaurant allows it, the decision should be up to the parents. My 3 children under the age of six would never fall into this category of well behaved for more than 1 hour. Usually 30 minutes max for my 22 month old.

This one thing I love about Japan, since babysitting is unheard of in this country, the children go everywhere with the parents. I have never been to "really" nice restaurants with them, but have never even gotten a second glance when walking into a decent restaurant. Of course I would prefer to dine with out them......

On visits to the States however I have had nastly glances from child free couples at even "family style restaurants" like Tony Romas and Applebees.

I think it really depends a lot on the culture of the country you are dining in. I would never take my decently behaved 6 year old to a nice restaurant in the US.

It reminds me of the time I took my 11 month old on a trip from Japan to Hawaii in First Class. Even though she was very well behaved I had nasty looks the whole time (all from the non-Asians) for even bringing her there. I could just tell some were waiting for her to do something, so they could say something to me for ruining their flight.

[Tonyfinch]

What I don't understand is the absolute seperation on which some insist.

But no-one is "insisting" on "absolute separation". No-one has said you must not do it. In this situation you are probably over sensitive to what people might be thinking. And that's because part of you knows that it's unusual and inappropriate to schlep a four year old child to a top class 3 star restaurant.

[AdamLawrence]

Le Manoir aux'Quat Saisons is _very_ child friendly. When I was last there, there was a photograph in one of the lounges of an absolutely blissed-out youngster, captioned 'Harry's [or whatever, I forget the name] first creme brulee'.

Adam

[Jonathan Day]

The key is that phrase "admitted" in the Time Out guide. In my experience this means "very grudgingly". We've taken our three (now 7, 9, 12) to all sorts of restaurants in Spain, France and Italy, but we avoid taking them to fine restaurants in London. Our initial exposure to London views on these things was an attempt to bring a 9 month old (asleep in a baby carrier) into a pretentious and horrid Chinese restaurant in South Kensington, only to be rudely pushed into the street by the waiter.

If they are admitted at all (and you must check beforehand, not relying on guides), you may well find that you are placed at a distant table, given poor service, talked to in patronising ways, etc. Other diners in London restaurants will occasionally break the usual practice of no interaction between tables to drop arch remarks about how inappropriate it is to bring children to temples of gastronomy.

Whether or not you agree with them, it is probably better to go with the flow and to leave the children at home or in your hotel. There are very good babysitting services available.

Or choose a restaurant more suited to children. Apart from that idiotic place in S. Ken we've always had good luck in Chinese restaurants.

I've seen children of many ages in restaurants in France, right up to the top of the range. And they are almost always perfectly behaved, sometimes worryingly so. Perhaps it's those tots of wine they receive, right from the start...