Winston Industries C-Vap Cook & Hold

[docsconz]

In the course of doing some upgrading to our home, including various kitchen features, I took advantage of advantageous mortgage rates to get some things that I really wanted. Ever since I saw it in action at the Starchefs International Chefs Congress in NYC I wanted a Winston Industries C-Vap Cook & Hold ove. You can see a demo of the product here.

These machines are not currently designed for the domestic kitchen. They are at present a product aimed squarely at professionals, which I am not, but decided to do anyway. My wife doesn't like the idea of cooking food in plastic, so this would likely be the closest I could come to cooking sous vide at home, with the added potential of doing much, much more. My machine, the C-Vap Cook & Hold 503, arrived earlier in the week and my contractor hooked it up for me in a good spot in our basement.

This is not something that one can simply bring home and plug in a regular wall outlet. The electrical requirements, for one, are heavy duty. My builder needed to install a new 230 volt outlet for me with a special plug receptacle. Since the device depends on water vapor to exert its magic, a dedicated water source is handy, though not required as the water can be added manually. We installed ours next to a sink in the basement. The builder was able to plug directly into the plumbing, however, the water needs to be emptied from a spigot in the front. Another plus for the basement location is the space necessary for ventilation around the oven. Of course, the basement has its disadvantages too. The main one being the need to schlep the food back and forth from the kitchen.

I have started the process this morning of making my first meal with this oven. I am roasting a chicken and potatoes according to guidelines provided by the company. These guidelines are quite general, so I am essentially winging it. The company suggested a doneness temperature of 140-150 degrees F for the chicken with a browning level of 10 to cook for two hours and hold at 150 for one to four hours. The recommended settings for the potatoes were essentially the same, so I am cooking them together. The chicken itself is a local free range chicken from Brookside farm and the potatoes, blue potatoes from Sheldon Farm in Salem, N.Y. The product quality is top notch, so if the food is not great that will not have been the issue. Chances are if it is not great, it will likely be my inexperience with the device that is the issue. OTOH, if it is great, it will be despite my inexperience.

I will record my trials in this topic, but will welcome accounts and advice from others with experience using these machines as well as questions.If anyone wishes to contribute tips or recipes, they are welcome as well.

[docsconz]

The results of my first experiment are in. They were neither a total success nor a complete disaster. It was a learning experience. I discovered that the machine really is pretty incredible. The chicken was ready much sooner than I expected, such that I let it sit for a couple of hours in the "sell" mode before having it for dinner with my family.

The chicken and potatoes in the oven just before I removed them.

The fully cooked chicken and potatoes.

The carved bird and potatoes ready for family style service.

The chicken was indeed fully cooked. I had set the controls on the high end of their recommendation which was a temperature of 150 degrees F, set at constant cook with a browning set point of 10 corresponding to 350 degrees F. The skin was perfectly browned and crisped, however, the meat, especially the breast meat was quite dry and overdone. Next time I will try lowering the doneness temperature and keep the browning point at 10. I will also not allot quite as much time as I did.

The potatoes, OTOH were quite delicious. though they could have been served hotter.

Overall, this first attempt was quite encouraging.

[alwang]

Sounds like a very useful tool, but I've never found low and slow a good way to cook a whole roast chicken. Perhaps fish or chicken breast would be a better initial test: those are both sous vide standbys.

[docsconz]

Sounds like a very useful tool, but I've never found low and slow a good way to cook a whole roast chicken.  Perhaps fish or chicken breast would be a better initial test: those are both sous vide standbys.

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The interesting thing about his device is that it does more than just cook low and slow. In fact, this chicken came out quite differently than if it had been cooked that way. It combines high heat for browning and low temperature for cooking and holding. If I didn't want the chicken browned, i could have cooked it with more of a sous vide approach, but I agree that would not be the best way to go with a whole chicken. In classic sous vide if one wants a maillard on one's meat, one would have to sear it either before or after. This machine theoretically, at least, incorporates that into its process. For the roast chicken, it acted not so much like a low temp cooking source, but a controlled high temp source.

Since using this machine is entirely new to me, I will be learning as I go and document my successes (and failures) here. Because it was overcooked, this chicken was a failure, but not a total one. It was a valuable learning experience that needs to be followed up on. I did get to see some of the very real potential greatness of this tool.

[alwang]

The interesting thing about his device is that it does more than just cook low and slow. In fact, this chicken came out quite differently than if it had been cooked that way. It combines high heat for browning and low temperature for cooking and holding. If I didn't want the chicken browned, i could have cooked it with more of a sous vide approach, but I agree that would not be the best way to go with a whole chicken. In classic sous vide if one wants a maillard on one's meat, one would have to sear it either before or after. This machine theoretically, at least, incorporates that into its process. For the roast chicken, it acted not so much like a low temp cooking source, but a controlled high temp source.

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What I meant is that even your browning temp/time seemed low/slow relative to roasting chicken: 350F seems low for browning. and even in a steam environment, I think cooking at that temp for 1-2 hours will dry out the bird. If there was a setting to brown at a high temperature for a shorter period of time, then drop to 150F (which seems about right), that might be the way to go.

Of course, this is all speculation on my part, having never used one of these devices.

[gfron1]

John,

How is this different from an Aga oven? Is it the ability to stop cooking and hold? I'm not completely familiar with Agas either, but I've heard about some amazing cooking going on with that. Maybe this is even more precise. Looking forward to seeing your outcomes.

[docsconz]

John,

How is this different from an Aga oven?  Is it the ability to stop cooking and hold?  I'm not completely familiar with Agas either, but I've heard about some amazing cooking going on with that.  Maybe this is even more precise.  Looking forward to seeing your outcomes.

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Rob, Aga ovens are basically fancy conventional ovens that I have no doubt are wonderful. This one depends on water vapor, timing and fancy electronics. The closest thing that I have seen to the C-Vap is the Alto-Shaam ovens.

[nathanm]

Winston C-Vap is one of a whole set of cook-and-hold ovens.

Alto Shaam is likely the market share leader - it's cook and hold ovens are all over the place, but they are not that high tech in terms of temperature or humidity control - it is basically a low heat oven with humidity.

Winston is a bit higher tech, but similar.

The most technologically interesting one to me is Accutemp. Their ovens pull a vacuum to lower the boiling point of water - so they literally are low-temp steamers. Sort of the opposite of a pressure cooker. This ought to give you faster heat transfer and have some other effects, but I am not sure how noticeable this is.

All of these units are similar to a simple version of a combi oven - it is not as powerful or does as many modes or types of cooking as a combi-oven.

However, for low temperature steaming or high-humidity low-temperature baking/roasting they can be very good.

The temperature control in all of these ovens is something to watch - they can have inaccurate thermostats.

Edited April 7, 2008 by nathanm (log)

[adey73]

I went to The Northern Restaurant exhibition In Manchester UK yesterday.

The Rational stand was one of the most mobbed, not just for the free food.

I am allergic to sales people and tried to stay out of their way, but the latest model looked very user friendly with a large dial and a simple interface.

I still have no idea how each tray level can be kept at such an accurate temperature and not affect the other, have they broken the laws of entropy?!

Edited April 8, 2008 by adey73 (log)

[docsconz]

Winston C-Vap is one of a whole set of cook-and-hold ovens.   

Alto Shaam is likely the market share leader - it's cook and hold ovens are all over the place, but they are not that high tech in terms of temperature or humidity control - it is basically a low heat oven with humidity.

Winston is a bit higher tech, but similar. 

The most technologically interesting one to me is Accutemp.  Their ovens pull a vacuum to lower the boiling point of water - so they literally are low-temp steamers.  Sort of the opposite of a pressure cooker.  This ought to give you faster heat transfer and have some other effects, but I am not sure how noticeable this is.

All of these units are similar to a simple version of a combi oven - it is not as powerful or does as many modes or types of cooking as a combi-oven.

However, for low temperature steaming or high-humidity low-temperature baking/roasting they can be very good.

The temperature control in all of these ovens is something to watch - they can have inaccurate thermostats.

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Thanks for the input, Nathan. How would you suggest monitoring the oven temp?

[docsconz]

Though not yet perfect, my second go at the C-Vap was a major step up. I made two veal roasts marinated with olive oil, rosemary, garlic, salt and pepper. This time I set the machine at the low end of its recommendations. The final temp was set at 130º F with a browning setting of 6 to cook for two hours and hold for another two. The two roasts of about even size totaled about 4 pounds of meat. I used the cook and hold setting and not the constant cook that had been recommended for the chicken. After an initial browning stage, the remainder of the cook time was at or around the target temperature. Here are the results:

The roasts could have used more browning. Next time I will set the browning stage higher. I could have remedied this by searing them on the stove, but it had already held for awhile and everything else was ready. In addition, I wanted to see and taste what it would be like as it was.

As I hope you can see the internal temperature doneness was pretty nigh on perfect for what I was aiming for. Doing this again, I would let it cook for longer at this temperature in hopes of tenderizing the meat a little more. Nevertheless, the doneness was right on and the meat was wonderfully juicy. The meat picked up nice flavors from the marinade though perhaps not as intensely had it been cooked sous vide. Another nice element was that the meat lost very little volume during the cooking process.

I served the meat with roasted cauliflower, roasted fingerling potatoes, sautéed spinach and sautéed parsnips with Indian spices. The meat wound up benefiting from additional salt, though I thought I had applied plenty with the marinade. The non-meat roasts were done with a convection oven.

I still have to work on my target times. The chicken I started way too early leaving it overdone. This I started later than I should have. It wasn't underdone, I just should have given it more time.

[nathanm]

Thanks for the input, Nathan. How would you suggest monitoring the oven temp?

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Monitoring is pretty easy - use a digital oven thermometer like this. Most of them have a thin wire between the probe and the display unit, and you can just close the oven door on the wire and it works fine.

I use a USB thermocouple interface and display the result on PC, which can then show you how the steady the temperature is, make graphs etc. But that is overkill for most people.

It is much harder to control the temperature (as opposed to just monitoring it). A PID controller could in principle be adapted to the oven, but that may not be easy.

[nathanm]

I think you'll get the best results from browning on the stove, grill, griddle, torch etc. While you can program ovens like CVAP to get browning right, it is tricky. It is a bit easier with a Rational combi-oven. However you'll get the most control if you brown as a separate step (either before or after the cooking and holding).

[docsconz]

Thanks, Nathan! My next attempt this weekend will be a pork shoulder. I plan on cooking it at 175º F for 14 hours then holding it for at least two with a browning setting of zero.

[CaliPoutine]

I'm sure this is a totally tacky question, but how much was your oven? Also, will this take the place of your regular oven?

[docsconz]

I'm sure this is a totally tacky question, but how much was your oven?  Also, will this take the place of your regular oven?

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I paid full price for it, which was less than $5000. How much it replaces our regular oven will depend on the success of my "experiments." I didn't buy it with the intention of replacing my regular oven but supplementing it, especially for entertaining purposes. I would like to be able to cook things slowly over time, freeing my wife and I up for other prep work, while enjoying guests. One reason that it will not fully replace our regular oven is its location. Being in the basement, its use requires forethought, something not always a strength in my household!

[docsconz]

My latest venture with the CVAP was my first home run. I got advice from an experienced CVAP user about cooking a pork shoulder. On Friday I defrosted a nearly 5 pound bone-in shoulder that I bought the previous week at the Saratoga Farmers Market from M&A Farms, then rubbed it with a Cajun Spice blend from Penzey's, leaving it covered in the refrigerator for 24 hours or so. I put it in the oven late last night to cook for 14 hours at 175º F with 0 browning. Once the cooking time was over, it would hold for two hours at 150º F and then maintain that temperature until service. I was surprised by how well the meat browned. As one would expect it was extremely tender and simply fell off the bone. I was able to make an excellent gravy to which I added some reisling, butter, coriander and smoked pimentón to add some smokiness. I served the meat with toasted cumin mashed potatoes and stir-fried bok-choy and broccolini with shallots, garlic, coriander, roasted sesame seeds, cardamom, black pepper and chilis. My kids certainly enjoyed it.

[docsconz]

By Jove, I think I'm getting the hang of this thing.

I revisited roast chicken tonight with some modifications from my initial effort. What turned out was perhaps the most perfectly cooked roast chickens that I have ever made, falling short, perhaps, of a couple of Bresse chickens I once made in Paris.

This time I took a chicken from the same local source as I did with my initial effort. I rubbed it with salt and a masala for chicken that i brought back from India. I programmed the CVAP to cook at 145º F for about an hour with a browning point of 8. After its hold cycle I kept it in the CVAP under the "sell" cycle at 150º F for about another 2 and a half hours before removing it to carve and serve. What came out was a perfectly juicy on the inside, crisp on the outside bird with joints that simply fell away. In addition, the masala provided nice flavor to the bird. I served it with cumin/yogurt mashed potatoes and Mark Bittman's pimentón microwaved cauliflower and a 1998 Kistler Hyde Vineyard chardonnay. This is why I purchased the machine!

Compare to my first CVAP roast chicken.

[adey73]

any more experiments recently?

[docsconz]

any more experiments recently?

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Funny that you ask. Yes, I have been working with red meats, in particular beef and lamb/mutton.

I recently braised mutton shanks or osso bucco in tomato sauce with rosemary, garlic and jalapeño for 8 hours at 180º with a 150º hold for four hours. I didn't take any photos of that preparation because it wasn't particularly photogenic. The mutton was tasty and cooked through, but it wasn't falling-off-the-bone cooked through that would have made it better. Doing again, I would probably cook it for the fourteen hours or so that I cooked the pork shoulder.

I did several preparations with red meat to try to achieve sous vide-like perfect throughout cooking temperature. The first night I did it with several different cuts of beef, 2 chuck steaks and a hangar steak that I bought that day at the Farmers' market. The chuck steaks were nice thick cuts that looked really good. The chucks were over 1.5 inches thick while the hangar was maybe an inch thick.

The chuck steaks are on top with the hangar below.

Close-up of one of the chuck steaks.

I cooked them for an hour at 130ºF and let them hold for another hour at the same temp. I guess you could say that they cooked for two hours at 130º. I applied S&P before cooking.

The hangar has much more color on the outside despite the same cooking environment.

At this point, the interior temp of one of the chucks was 121ºF.

I finished them in a hot pan to get some sear.

The interiors of both steaks were in fact perfectly cooked and wonderfully juicy.

Given that I had S&P'ed them pretty liberally prior to the CVAP like I usually do to steaks before more conventional cooking techniques, they were surprisingly (to me) lacking in seasoning and depth of flavor. The flavor wasn't bad, just not what I would have liked and expected. I had recently pan-seared some porterhouse steaks from the same source that were outstanding. Granted those were porterhouse steaks, but these should have been flavorful cuts, albeit perhaps a bit tougher.

Lamb to come...

[docsconz]

For Mother's Day I made Lamb Three Ways: The aforementioned braised mutton shanks (ok so it wasn't really lamb three ways ), a butterflied leg of lamb and some lamb chops, all from Elihu Farms and purchased at the Saratoga Farmers' Market.

The osso bucco was cooked as per the previous post. The leg was marinated overnight with rosemary, garlic, S&P and Vea Coffee Oil while the chops were treated with S&P and pimentón. The leg and chops were cycled for thirty minutes at 130ºF with a Browning setting of 5 equating to a cooking temperature of 170ºF for that time before holding for four hours at 130º.

The internal temp of the lamb when I removed it from the oven.

The leg directly from the CVAP.

The chops directly from the CVAP.

The leg after a quick, high heat stove-top sear.

Both the leg and the chops were cooked to perfect uniform interior doneness, despite different thicknesses of different areas or individual portions. While the meats were very moist and juicy, unfortunately none of the flavors or seasoning outside of the pimentón on the chops really shone through to any significant degree.

Like sous vide, it is very easy and reliable to achieve an anticipated degree of doneness, however, I am discovering that seasoning and flavoring product may involve more than what I have so far done. For example, it seems that the salt and pepper pretreatment of the meat doesn't really do much. I may try my seasoning after the CVAP cooking and before searing or possibly after the final sear. Another option would be to wrap the seasoned and flavored meat in plastic wrap for the cooking to simulate the conditions of the sous vide bath.

The things we do for science!

[docsconz]

Here is an approach that I may have to try - a recipe for Boar Loin, Boar Ragout, Vermicelli, Bok Choy by Chef Akhtar Nawab of Elettaria – New York, NY as adapted by StarChefs.com.

He cooks the boar shoulder in two steps. The initial one is at 180ºF for 9 hours with a browning level of 3. Then he separates the meat into portions and does it again at 120º with 0 browning for about 50 minutes. Interesting.

[docsconz]

Yesterday I used the "poor man's sous vide" to cook some sirloin steaks. Both steaks were about 1.4 lbs and a little over an inch thick. I salted and peppered them and wrapped them in Saran wrap before placing them in the 130ºF oven with 0 browning for about 4 hours total time. I finished them on a hot charcoal grill, cooking a couple of minutes on each side to give a little external sear. They were served along with grilled lamb offal skewers, mashed potatoes and grilled asparagus (that had been pre-cooked in the microwave on high for about 6 minutes).

The steaks were flavorful having held onto the seasoning that was applied before the plastic wrap. Finishing on the grill provided the additional flavor boost one might expect. It was good to provide enough exterior char in a short period of time as the steaks were essentially done with very little effort before placement on the grill. I would definitely use this treatment again for steaks as well as other proteins.

[mtigges]

Very nice looking results.

How did you hide the plastic wrap from your wife?

[docsconz]

Very nice looking results.

How did you hide the plastic wrap from your wife?

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I didn't mention it or show her and she didn't ask. She did see me throw it out though.