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Anti Foie Gras ALF stuff


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I'm going to be honest. Being bullied into removing it after vandalism. That makes me sick. I just don't know what to say to that. Just read the links from the midsummer house thread. Even more angry now. Ignorant wankers. I'm in a bad mood now.

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more bullied restaurants...here

Just makes me angry that law abiding people are being forced into doing things against their will by bullies, thugs and arseholes.I'm tempted to go and buy some and stick it on my menu.We need a campaign of solidarity or something.

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there were protesters outside the boxwood cafe pretty much every saturday last year for a good 6 months - loud hailers and all, didn't bother any of the guests and instead seemed to "hype it up" even more

"Experience is something you gain just after you needed it" ....A Wise man

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At the WGF in Bangkok back in 2006 a couple of teenagers got into Michael Ginor's foie gras dinner at the Four Seasons. But then it was more of "Shame on you, shame on you" followed by some giggles on their part. Michael was very keen on talking with them after, and tried to have a rational discussion, but it was obvious that they weren't there for a discussion or a debate.

Bangkok was fairly benign, more of a lark, than anything else, but the thugism that is raising its head now over this is far uglier. The objective is not to stop the production of foie gras, nor to adjust the handling of animals, but rather to attack what they perceive as a particular "class" of society.

And, you can try to have a rational discussion on the pros and cons, on the merits, on the far-from-elevated position in society that many of us enjoy who do like foie gras (although that can be a bit of a stretch....still, we prioritize), on what is and what is not "humane"...

But, in the end.....

It's obvious that they're not interested in discussion or debate.

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What annoys me is people that attack foie gras for the class it seems to represent. Apparently, people working hard to earn money and consequently use that money to enjoy incredible food is wrong. Its just sour ignorance and fear of another class.

Someone from a bbc article defined foie as "snobfeed".

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When did the POLICE start giving the advice to kow tow to criminals? Is this because its Foie Gras?.What if i get threatened because i'm serving Meat or Fish, or Non Cornish Wine or whatever?

This is the most appaling aspect to me.

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The way Foie Gras is produced is cruel. I really don’t see how that can be argued against And yeah sure you are quite within you rights to eat it just as other person is quite within their rights to protest against you eating it. The organisation foiegrasfreenorth have nothing to do with the ALF so quite why Basildog ties the two organisations together is beyond me. It’s like equating the BNP to UKIP. And also I really don’t think this has anything to do with class war either, that assumption is bordering on paranoia. I mean Prince Charles has just banned Foie Gras from his estates so unless you think that he‘s joined in with the anarchists then that argument is a none starter. The way I see it is quite simple - should we cause unnecessary cruelty to an animal in order for it to taste better? I say no and I’d be quite happy to see it banned tomorrow.

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There has been plenty of media coverage that the BNP & UKIP share members. And officials from UKIP have given cash to the BNP.

Am starting the Lobster Liberation Front. anyone in?

“Do you not find that bacon, sausage, egg, chips, black pudding, beans, mushrooms, tomatoes, fried bread and a cup of tea; is a meal in itself really?” Hovis Presley.

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I would think that the recent attacks by the ALF at The Midsummer House would have influenced the Mancester place more than emails?.

When any organisation resorts to going outside the law, then they have lost the argument.The change is based on fear, not on educating or changing peoples actual opinions.I'm not here to defend foie gras production, or consumption, but i do believe that someone should be able to stand up and say that the ALF are tossers for the actions they choose to use to influence change.

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should we cause unnecessary cruelty to an animal in order for it to taste better?

I'm not sure that's really a question when dealing with the Pantone chart of grey-areas involved with food ethics. For starters: what are you considering necessary cruelty? Is all cruelty to an animal unneccesary if it makes the meat taste better?

My own feelings: I have sympathy for many of the anti foie campaigners, much as a religious person tends to have more time for atheists than agnostics. Involvement in the issue shows they understand the Machiavelian bargaining required every time we decide how far to go to feed our own gluttony. And, just because I reached a different conclusion doesn't mean that I disagree with the argument. Even when the answer's wrong, you get marks for showing your working.

The problems begin when protestors use guerilla tactics to enforce their moral preference - not because it impinges on freewill, but because it polarises the issue. And, by polarising the issue, reasonable debate is suppressed.

Consider vivisection. It's another complex (albeit more important) debate about degree of evil versus potential for good, and contains a grey area wider than the staffroom locker at PwC. Yet we can't discuss it openly because the anti-viv lobby has been hijacked by a few dozen vocal simpletons. Any attempt at a dialogue is drowned out by people who spend their weekends gathered around a trestle table on Oxford Street, upsetting children with posters of half-faced cats and beagles smoking Silk Cut.

If I were working for Glaxo or AstraZeneca, I'd be paying these guerilla simpletons to stay out there shouting about lab-rat rights and repulsing weekend shoppers. If you're a corporation wanting to suppress reasonable public debate about ethical standards, you can't really do better than characterise the opposition as a lunatic fringe.

Interesting that the guerilla foie lobby has swung into action at the exact moment the processed meat producers are under scrutiny. Coincidence, probably.

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post summary - ban foie gras

There are a couple of specific points where I don't see eye-to-eye with the anti-foie lobby.

a) The argument that production is cruel is based on the force-feeding-with-a-funnel process, I assume, and having seen a duck's gullet and how different it is from a person's I suspect there's anthropomorphism at work in coming to the conclusion that the process is brutal.

b) The anti-foie lobby in my experience leaves no room for ethically produced foie-gras, meaning that there is either a trend or a misconception at work in their current efforts against foie

c) And when I point out to the few anti-foie people I've debated with that the production and supply of ie; chicken is unambiguously cruel and on a much, much, much larger scale I'm usually told that they wish to see that out of business as well!

At which point it seems apparent that this is a wedge issue for the vegie-munchers, who have managed to reign in enough animal-rights counterparts to make foie the big issue that veal was a few years ago before they lost interest. Add to that I HATE bullies, and I become very suspicious of anyone pushing for the banning of foiegras.

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When any organisation resorts to going outside the law, then they have lost the argument.

Damn, why didn't Kaltenbrunner (inter alia...) think of that argument at Nuremberg? When the law defends the indefensible, one must step outside it.

<godwin invoked>

It no longer exists, but it was lovely.

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When any organisation resorts to going outside the law, then they have lost the argument.

Damn, why didn't Kaltenbrunner (inter alia...) think of that argument at Nuremberg? When the law defends the indefensible, one must step outside it.

<godwin invoked>

Ignoring Godwin for a moment, that argument has merit if the law cannot be changed through normal democractic means. But the ALF simply can't be arsed to persuade the public and organise politically, so instead they chuck bricks through peoples' windows.

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Ignoring Godwin for a moment, that argument has merit if the law cannot be changed through normal democractic means. But the ALF simply can't be arsed to persuade the public and organise politically, so instead they chuck bricks through peoples' windows.

ONe can't unilaterally ignore Godwin.

If you really think that the majority of the public would be in favour of Foie Gras production, I would suggest you have little idea of publc opinion. The public are persuaded (those that care about it)--doesn't mean it can or would be banned. Not enough people (on either side) care.

It no longer exists, but it was lovely.

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Foie Gras production is already, ridiculously, illegal in the UK. Intensive rearing of birds for this is as undesirable as any other intensive rearing, but properly raised Foie Gras is not remotely cruel.

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If you really think that the majority of the public would be in favour of Foie Gras production, I would suggest you have little idea of publc opinion. The public are persuaded (those that care about it)--doesn't mean it can or would be banned. Not enough people (on either side) care.

Oh God - I didn't think of public opinion. People are idiots, in favour of hanging, Carling and Strictly Come Dancing. Their role in society should be restricted to once every five years, when they can have an either-or choice about who will be deciding what's good for them. This perfectly workable system only fails with matters of ambivalence, which tend to be dictated by whoever's shouting loudest.

If the foie argument becomes shorthanded to "rich people torture geese" and pitched directly the disinterested mass, we may as well give up now and move to Périgord.

ONe can't unilaterally ignore Godwin.

Indeed. That's fascist behaviour.

ETA: just out of interest, is preparing ortolan illegal in the UK? And has a British restaurant ever been brave enough to stick it on the menu?

Edited by naebody (log)
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It's a toughie this debate, much like like Fox hunting, where i dislike both sides.

I don't like the idea of foie gras but my wife loves to eat it. I managed to register my protest against her eating it by throwing a brick through our front window.

That'll bloody show her.

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But what's wrong with it?

That's the nub of the issue. And, as I say, there's a very entertaining philosophical debate to be had if the two sides would just stop screeching and droning.

Is the comfort of one goose worth more than a thousand chickens?

Are we against cruelty, or just the cruel and unusual?

Etcetera.

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ETA: just out of interest, is preparing ortolan illegal in the UK? And has a British restaurant ever been brave enough to stick it on the menu?

Phwoar. Could do with a brandied ortolan with some seared foie and a glass of freshly squeezed veal juice RIGHT NOW. Maybe with a torchon of engorged egulleteer liver on the side.

Someone remind me to get the windows reinforced tomorrow.

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