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CaliPoutine

"Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day" Zoe Francois (2008–2009)

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Hi Zoe,

I have a question. My usual method in baking artisan type breads is to retard the shaped loafs overnight and bake them cold out of the fridge first thing in the morning (in a preheated oven of course). I have no problem and get great oven spring.

This fits my schedule very nicely and I would like to adapt this method because it works for me. If I shape the loaves the night before and either put them in the refrigerator or leave out at room temp, which is about 65F this time of year, do you think I'll have a problem?

Thanks,

Marc

Hi Marc,

Great question! I do believe you will have the same good luck with our dough. In fact I wonder if this won't solve many of the problems of over handling while shaping, because it will have such a nice long cool rise. Very interesting indeed!

If I understand correctly you also were wondering about leaving the dough out all night at room temperature? It is worth a try, but I suspect that it will over proof and will have no oven spring? I've never tried this so it would be a good experiment.

As soon as I leave this computer I'm going to shape a loaf and then set it to rise in the refrigerator. I'll report tomorrow what I come up with.

Thanks for the inspiration!

Zoe

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The house is pretty cold at night, we've been having single digit temps at night and I set back the thermostat to 65 at night. I've never tried overnight proofing out of fridge before.

I'm anxiously awaiting your results.

Marc

Hi Zoe,

I have a question. My usual method in baking artisan type breads is to retard the shaped loafs overnight and bake them cold out of the fridge first thing in the morning (in a preheated oven of course). I have no problem and get great oven spring.

This fits my schedule very nicely and I would like to adapt this method because it works for me. If I shape the loaves the night before and either put them in the refrigerator or leave out at room temp, which is about 65F this time of year, do you think I'll have a problem?

Thanks,

Marc

Hi Marc,

Great question! I do believe you will have the same good luck with our dough. In fact I wonder if this won't solve many of the problems of over handling while shaping, because it will have such a nice long cool rise. Very interesting indeed!

If I understand correctly you also were wondering about leaving the dough out all night at room temperature? It is worth a try, but I suspect that it will over proof and will have no oven spring? I've never tried this so it would be a good experiment.

As soon as I leave this computer I'm going to shape a loaf and then set it to rise in the refrigerator. I'll report tomorrow what I come up with.

Thanks for the inspiration!

Zoe

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So here are the results using bread flour:

gallery_6903_111_9817.jpg

Dough being mixed in large bowl.

gallery_6903_111_12552.jpg

Transferred to 2 smaller containers to fit in the 'fridge.

gallery_6903_111_6653.jpg

Dough after 3 hours at room temperature.

gallery_6903_111_1304.jpg

Dough after 24 hours in 'fridge

gallery_6903_111_58156.jpg

A portion of the dough removed and shaped ready to bake. It was not the lb I wanted but a little under 13 ozs!

gallery_6903_111_63178.jpg

Dough after 50 minutes at room temperature. I left it longer because my oven won't get up to temp in less than 30 minutes despite the "pre-heat" light going off. At this point the surface temperature of the dough was only 65F (room temp was 68F).

gallery_6903_111_69061.jpg

Very poor slashing job!

gallery_6903_111_116207.jpg

The dough right out of the oven.

gallery_6903_111_32289.jpg

And here's the crumb.

This was excellent despite only 24 hours in the fridge and I truly think that the bread flour is a better choice for me.

This dough is NOT going to make it for 14 days in my 'fridge. We like it too much but I will try to restrain myself and aim for a few more days before baking the next batch.

I swear it was faster and easier to make the bread than to upload the images in the right order. :biggrin:

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So here are the results using bread flour:

That looks fabulous!!! Did you increase the water, due to using the bread flour?

I munched a left-over piece of my first loaf last night... didn't even warm it up and it was GOOD! :biggrin:

Pam

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So here are the results using bread flour:

That looks fabulous!!! Did you increase the water, due to using the bread flour?

I munched the lone left-over piece of my first loaf last night... didn't even warm it up and it was GOOD! :biggrin:

I'm hoping to try pizza tomorrow night!

Pam

Yes, here's the adaptation I used as explained a bit earlier in this topic:

I have a batch of dough in the 'fridge which I made this morning using Robin Hood Best for Bread Flour (for Canadian members!). I weighed out 2lbs of this flour, used 1.5 T of active dry yeast (not instant) and 2 T of Diamond Crystal salt and 3 3/4 cups of 100F water.

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That looks really great Anna. Have you made the original NKB? If so, how do you think it compares in flavor to this bread?

My next batch I'm going to try with the bread flour.

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So here are the results using bread flour:

Hi Anna,

This looks amazing! Lovely crust and the crumb looks fantastic as well! Thanks for all the pictures. I look forward to what you think of the bread after a few days.

The dough looked incredibly wet, but it doesn't seem as though you had any trouble handling it?

Keep us posted.

Zoe

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That looks really great Anna.  Have you made the original NKB?  If so, how do you think it compares in flavor to this bread? 

My next batch I'm going to try with the bread flour.

Strangely (or perhaps not!) I have never made the original NKB. I did, however, make the CI modified version. It was a great bread but I find the timing and the need for beer to be problematic. I keep very strange hours and find it harder to incorporate an 18 hour rise into my schedule. My other objection is the size of the NKB when there are normally only the two of us.

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So here are the results using bread flour:

Hi Anna,

This looks amazing! Lovely crust and the crumb looks fantastic as well! Thanks for all the pictures. I look forward to what you think of the bread after a few days.

The dough looked incredibly wet, but it doesn't seem as though you had any trouble handling it?

Keep us posted.

Zoe

Thanks, Zoe.

The dough is incredibly wet but I have had some experience working with wet doughs and didn't find this one too much of a challenge. It requires lots of flour on the hands and the dough and a certain deftness but it's not difficult. One has to accept something less than perfection in the shape of these very wet doughs and I think that is really hard for some of us. I also find the slashing to be a challenge.

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Thanks, Zoe.

The dough is incredibly wet but I have had some experience working with wet doughs and didn't find this one too much of a challenge.  It requires lots of flour on the hands and the dough and a certain deftness but it's not difficult.  One has to accept something less than perfection in the shape of these very wet doughs and I think that is really hard for some of us.  I also find the slashing to be a challenge.

Hi Anna,

I hate to even say it, because your loaf is near perfection, but you can play with the hydration level if it is too hard to handle, shape or slash. But, I thought it looked great and if the flavor is there than keep on doing what your doing!

Zoe


Edited by Zoe Francois (log)

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I shaped the loaf before I went to bed, put it on cornmeal and wrpped it loosely:

gallery_58273_5640_2553.jpg

The next morning I preheated the oven to 450 with a stone on the middle rack. The dough had spread out but had not risen at all, as is the case with this dough. Didn't look great at this point! But I slashed it, put it in the oven and crossed my fingers!

gallery_58273_5640_34024.jpg

The crust was amazing! But how about the crumb? Honestly I was expecting it to be a bit dense having only a cold rise and no time on the counter before hitting the oven.

gallery_58273_5640_37026.jpg

It was fantastic!!! I jumped up and down, then ran for the butter!

gallery_58273_5640_282.jpg

Hey Marc, thanks for the inspiration. This was so much fun!!!! and tasty! Zoe

Hi Zoe,

I have a question. My usual method in baking artisan type breads is to retard the shaped loafs overnight and bake them cold out of the fridge first thing in the morning (in a preheated oven of course). I have no problem and get great oven spring.

This fits my schedule very nicely and I would like to adapt this method because it works for me. If I shape the loaves the night before and either put them in the refrigerator or leave out at room temp, which is about 65F this time of year, do you think I'll have a problem?

Thanks,

Marc

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. . .

The crust was amazing! But how about the crumb? Honestly I was expecting it to be a bit dense having only a cold rise and no time on the counter before hitting the oven.

. . .

It was fantastic!!! I jumped up and down, then ran for the butter!

. . . .

Hey Marc, thanks for the inspiration. This was so much fun!!!! and tasty! Zoe

WOW! That just makes it that much more adaptable to one's variable time-table.

Thanks Marc and Zoe for this additional option.

Zoe,

I might reduce the hydration a smidge next time to make the dough a little more manageable but I will wait to bake off the rest of this dough before I decide.

P.S. I finally have a copy of your book (courtesy of a good friend)! Even for those who are working from a re-print of the master recipe, this book is worth getting - there is so much more in it! The reprinted version misses much of the explanation and the finer points of this method.

Anna

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You might also try shaping the boule and placing it on parchment paper -- this is how I do my ciabatta (which is about 89% hydration). That way the dough and parchment both go into my oven right onto the stone. About half-way through the baking process I will normally rotate the breads for even cooking. I'll also just slip out the parchment from underneath the loaves at the same time. Although the cornmeal may still be desirable for texture/flavor, you won't have to use so much to actually transfer from the plastic to the oven.

Hydration level is one of those tricky things. More hydration promotes those nice big irregular holes in the finished bread. Less hydration generally causes a higher final loaf, but a more regular crumb.

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Wow, that looks fantastic. I think I'm going to take it a step further when I do this tonight and proof the loaf in a banneton if it's not impossibly wet.

Marc

I shaped the loaf before I went to bed, put it on cornmeal and wrpped it loosely:

gallery_58273_5640_2553.jpg

The next morning I preheated the oven to 450 with a stone on the middle rack. The dough had spread out but had not risen at all, as is the case with this dough. Didn't look great at this point! But I slashed it, put it in the oven and crossed my fingers!

gallery_58273_5640_34024.jpg

The crust was amazing! But how about the crumb? Honestly I was expecting it to be a bit dense having only a cold rise and no time on the counter before hitting the oven.

gallery_58273_5640_37026.jpg

It was fantastic!!! I jumped up and down, then ran for the butter!

gallery_58273_5640_282.jpg

Hey Marc, thanks for the inspiration. This was so much fun!!!! and tasty! Zoe

Hi Zoe,

I have a question. My usual method in baking artisan type breads is to retard the shaped loafs overnight and bake them cold out of the fridge first thing in the morning (in a preheated oven of course). I have no problem and get great oven spring.

This fits my schedule very nicely and I would like to adapt this method because it works for me. If I shape the loaves the night before and either put them in the refrigerator or leave out at room temp, which is about 65F this time of year, do you think I'll have a problem?

Thanks,

Marc

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Wow, that looks fantastic. I think I'm going to take it a step further when I do this tonight and proof the loaf in a banneton if it's not impossibly wet.

Marc

. . . .

Funny you should say that as it's exactly the last thought I remember before I fell asleep last night!

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Well, this is fun! I'm just mixing my first batch up--

I, of course came home from the supermarket today without unbleached flour--the main reason I went--and pouted for awhile, but I decided to try it with half unbleached and half bread flour--I looked at Anna's pics to see how wet it should be and its having its first rest now.

And welcome, Zoe--from one Zoe to another--it's great to have you here helping us all out!

Zoe

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Wow, that looks fantastic. I think I'm going to take it a step further when I do this tonight and proof the loaf in a banneton if it's not impossibly wet.

Marc

. . . .

Funny you should say that as it's exactly the last thought I remember before I fell asleep last night!

Good luck with the banneton, I've had mixed success with it but in general I find the dough a little too wet to make a lasting impression on the bread. But, I've learned not to discourage people from trying things with this dough, they often make discoveries I wouldn't have!

Let me know how it goes!

Zoe

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Well, this is fun!  I'm just mixing my first batch up--

I, of course came home from the supermarket today without unbleached flour--the main reason I went--and pouted for awhile, but I decided to try  it with half unbleached and half bread flour--I looked at Anna's pics to see how wet it should be and its having its first rest now.

And welcome, Zoe--from one Zoe to another--it's great to have you here helping us all out!

Zoe

Hi Zoe,

Thanks for trying the bread. I know it is hard to go back to AP when you're used to the finer things in life. Do tell how it goes! If you follow Anna's lead you should be just fine!

Thanks, Zoe F

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Well despite my hips and thighs saying, "NO MORE BREAD!" I found this thread/concept so fascinating that I just ordered a copy of the book.

For those having trouble finding it, I ordered it from Barnes & Noble (I had a 25% off coupon.) with free expedited shipping for a total of $17.99 and should have it by Monday! :smile:

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Well despite my hips and thighs saying, "NO MORE BREAD!" I found this thread/concept so fascinating that I just ordered a copy of the book.

For those having trouble finding it, I ordered it from Barnes & Noble (I had a 25% off coupon.) with free expedited shipping for a total of $17.99 and should have it by Monday!  :smile:

Hi Deb,

People have suggested that we include a gym membership with the book! :wink: I say, just make small loaves.

I look forward to your feedback!

Zoe F

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I just wanted to report on another recipe in Zoe's book, the one for Chocolate Bread. I mixed up a batch of it 4 days ago, baked the first loaf off after 24 hours in the fridge, and the other loaf today. The only change I made was to add one cup of dried sour cherries to the ingredients. The bread is great! It reminds me of the similar bread I used to buy from Zingermann's when I lived in Ann Arbor, a bread that now cost $12/loaf!

Unfortunately, I couldn't wait to try it, so I forgot to take a picture to post. The first bread was excellent, but the loaf made after 4 days in the fridge was even better, with a more complex, slightly tangy taste. My suggestions for the bread are: 1) don't cut up the chocolate chunks too small, as it's even better when you get a good-sized piece of chocolate with a bite of the bread; and 2) if you are going to add dried sour cherries, use 2 cups for the whole recipe.

Zoe, I've got a question for you about the cherry addition. I'm guessing they suck up some of the liquid from the recipe, thereby reduce the overall hydration. I was thinking I should probably add more water to the dough at the beginning. Any idea how much extra?

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It reminds me of the similar bread I used to buy from Zingermann's when I lived in Ann Arbor, a bread that now cost $12/loaf!

On the website, its 13.00. The cranberry pecan is 14.00. IMO, that is just criminal to charge that much for bread.

Last time I was there, they told me the price of flour is going to drastically increase.

Has anyone seen evidence of that?

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Zoe, I've got a question for you about the cherry addition. I'm guessing they suck up some of the liquid from the recipe, thereby reduce the overall hydration. I was thinking I should probably add more water to the dough at the beginning. Any idea how much extra?

Hi. I'm so glad we can start talking about the sweet breads. I'm a pastry chef by training and so the desserts in the book were my real passion! Try the brioche. For those of you who have made brioche before this method is quite different!

Perhaps you could try hydrating the cherries before adding them to the dough. Soak them in some port or just water to plump them. This, of course, will take some of the chewiness away.

If you want to add water to the dough instead, then I would just start with a few extra tablespoons. I don't think the dried fruit will absorb too much of the dough's moisture.

Thanks, the bread sounds great! I'd love to see a picture if you bake another batch!

Zoe F

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Made the pizza tonight. Awesome!!!

I made three little pies (sort of oddly shaped). Baked them on parchment on top of pizza stones at 550F with convection on. They took about 15 minutes.

I don't think I let the stones get hot enough (it was late and I was rushing). Next time, I'll wait a bit longer before putting the pies in.

They were by far the best pizzas I've ever made. I love crisp crust and these were nearly perfect!

Pam

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It reminds me of the similar bread I used to buy from Zingermann's when I lived in Ann Arbor, a bread that now cost $12/loaf!

On the website, its 13.00. The cranberry pecan is 14.00. IMO, that is just criminal to charge that much for bread.

Last time I was there, they told me the price of flour is going to drastically increase.

Has anyone seen evidence of that?

The price of flour has gone up drastically in the last year and is continuing to do so. I just received a weekly report from one of my suppliers showing price changes. Several varieties of flour increased by 4% and King Arthur Organic Artisan flour went up a whopping 49% due to shortages. These are increases on the wholesale level. I'm not making excuses for Zingermann's $14 loaf, but the cost of all ingredients is increasing.

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