Reforming Vegetarians

[nibor]

Most animals would eat us in a second if we were not so large and crafty. I know my cat would...yet I love him dearly. Go figure the animal world!

[petite tête de chou]

I love meat, although I admit that killing animals beyond the actual needs of our sustenance is a problem we affluent nations have to do a bit more work on. My main objection to knee-jerk American vegetarianism (I won't even go into veganism here--don't get me started) is its tendency to anthropomorphize meat animals, that is, ascribe the same needs and feelings to them that we do to people. My sense is that a cow or a pig simply has different aims in life than a human; they're working on a different frequency, with different priorities consciousness-wise. For them, a humane life followed by a humane death is pretty darn good, neither insulting nor injurious to their body or spirit, and it's incumbent upon us to do our best to ensure them those conditions. I believe that to an extent the animals become part of us when we consume them. Which is, you have to admit, kinda groovy.

By the way, one way to reduce our meat intake is by improving our meat: The less flavor meat has, the more you have to eat simply to get that satisfying sensation of eating meat.

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Amen! It was this philosophy that ended my self-made illusions concerning veganism. And you phrased it so much better than I ever could.

[takadi]

By the way, one way to reduce our meat intake is by improving our meat: The less flavor meat has, the more you have to eat simply to get that satisfying sensation of eating meat.

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EXACTLY!!

[feedmec00kies]

It is interesting to note that pigs are incredibly smart though. So one would have to justify eating dogs if pigs, also kept as pets, are even more intelligent than most pets.

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I don't remember if it was from Purity and Danger or some other work by the anthropologist Mary Douglas, or maybe something we read in class just at that point (I can't remember... World of Goods?)... but a professor of mine talked once about the fact that there's a tendency to have a problem with meats that are too close to humans.

One aspect of this is that there tends to be more discomfort towards eating parts of animals that have the same name as they do in the human body. Euphemisms, names for cuts of meat - they help to distance an individual from the reality of what they're eating. It's not a hard and fast rule, of course. People who grew up eating organ meat, for example, are less likely to be bothered by it... and benefit financially from the lower cost these items have due to a lack of demand. Then again, people eat all sorts of "spare parts" in hot dogs, but not recognizing it as such helps people a lot.

The other, more obvious aspect of this is the discomfort that people (at least in the "industrialized West") have with the idea of eating those classified as "pets" - the ones that get to live with us at home and become anthropomorphized. For many of us in the US, those would commonly be dogs and cats... and for some, horses, guinea pigs, chinchillas, etc. This differs between cultures - some cultures eat any or all of those above animals. I think it bothers people, for example, to see anthropological video or something of people roasting up a guinea pig in South America in a village, but I actually wonder how much those "owners" actually become to those animals; I doubt they see them as an extension of their families, and would scoff at the lengths that people in the US and similar nations go in treating their pets like family members; pet hotels, insurance policies, special foods... There's a difference between treating an animal ethically and treating it as family.

So basically, what most people tend to deem appropriate or inappropriate food is entirely cultural. There's no reason in terms of intelligence to dictate which animals we do or don't eat - the reasons have to do with what use the animal has to us otherwise, or what use it might have had at one point that later lead to a closer relationship with humans.

BTW, but I'm intending to read that Mary Douglas book linked above (only read portions so far), and would suggest it... there's some fun look at Leviticus and the Kosher dietary laws (I think it's considered her most important work).

[pax]

I don't think macrobiotics is a religion per se, but if you're looking for raw/vegan, it might be interesting to explore.

I was really surprised on a recent outing to find the guest of the group, a Buddhist psychiatrist on a lecture circuit, tucking into meat.

When I discussed it with him further, he said, once you acknowledge that everything has a life force, or energy, then you realize no matter what you do, you have to consume to live.

The best you can do is to consume with responsibility and care.

He then added that meat has more karmic bang for the buck. If you need to feed a dozen people, one pig can do it, but a lot more energy or life force has to be expended for the same amount of salad. Can you hear the tomatoes screaming?

I'm sorry, I'm being somewhat facetious but it was an interesting discussion so I offer it up, fwiw.

[plk]

I love meat, although I admit that killing animals beyond the actual needs of our sustenance is a problem we affluent nations have to do a bit more work on. My main objection to knee-jerk American vegetarianism (I won't even go into veganism here--don't get me started) is its tendency to anthropomorphize meat animals, that is, ascribe the same needs and feelings to them that we do to people. My sense is that a cow or a pig simply has different aims in life than a human; they're working on a different frequency, with different priorities consciousness-wise. For them, a humane life followed by a humane death is pretty darn good, neither insulting nor injurious to their body or spirit, and it's incumbent upon us to do our best to ensure them those conditions. I believe that to an extent the animals become part of us when we consume them. Which is, you have to admit, kinda groovy.

By the way, one way to reduce our meat intake is by improving our meat: The less flavor meat has, the more you have to eat simply to get that satisfying sensation of eating meat.

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I eat meat as well, but I don't have any illusions that the vast majority of animals raised for consumption (this includes those raised for eggs, dairy, wool, and other products as well as meat) are treated in a way that is even remotely humane. You don't need to anthropomorphize animals to understand that they feel stress and fear, and that it's unpleasant for them to live in squalor and packed in to tiny spaces. It doesn't say a lot about us that even though we now know a lot more about what animals can think and feel than we used to, that even though we have developed incredibly efficient farming methods and have vastly improved our scientific knowledge, that we still have an industrial food system that really encourages treating animals much more harshly than necessary.

Even for foods that are packaged to make us think the animals are treated well, it is often a sham. I was just buying eggs yesterday and trying to decide between "cage free," "free range," and "organic." Which eggs came from hens that were treated the best? According to what I've read, they could all be treated the same, and not really any better than any others. If the hens are so fat that they literally cannot move from in front of their food trough, it doesn't help them to have the door to their cage open.

So I honestly have to say, for vegetarians and vegans, good for them for not contributing to this. Why fault them for that, even if some other people can't, or don't want to, live that way? What's the point of reforming people into doing less good for animals and the overall environment?

[Endy']

on the topic of getting lifelong vegetarians onto meat, someone once recommended stocks and consommés. Which makes sense to me as you can easily vary its "strength".

[pennylane]

I eat meat as well, but I don't have any illusions that the vast majority of animals raised for consumption (this includes those raised for eggs, dairy, wool, and other products as well as meat) are treated in a way that is even remotely humane. You don't need to anthropomorphize animals to understand that they feel stress and fear, and that it's unpleasant for them to live in squalor and packed in to tiny spaces. It doesn't say a lot about us that even though we now know a lot more about what animals can think and feel than we used to, that even though we have developed incredibly efficient farming methods and have vastly improved our scientific knowledge, that we still have an industrial food system that really encourages treating animals much more harshly than necessary.

Even for foods that are packaged to make us think the animals are treated well, it is often a sham. I was just buying eggs yesterday and trying to decide between "cage free," "free range," and "organic." Which eggs came from hens that were treated the best? According to what I've read, they could all be treated the same, and not really any better than any others. If the hens are so fat that they literally cannot move from in front of their food trough, it doesn't help them to have the door to their cage open.

So I honestly have to say, for vegetarians and vegans, good for them for not contributing to this. Why fault them for that, even if some other people can't, or don't want to, live that way? What's the point of reforming people into doing less good for animals and the overall environment?

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Thank you, plk, for saying that!

[Synergy]

^^^ + 1

Plk, that was a very eloquent. Thank you!

I am a vegetarian mostly for environmental reasons, and also because of the way the majority of food animals are treated.

I don't think eating meat is inherently bad, but the way our culture goes about it is wrong on so many levels. There are ways of sourcing your meat in a much more environmentally friendly and humane way, but the majority of our meat is factory farmed.

I just find it easier to avoid it all together.

[jedi_pocky]

i tried to covert to veggie but there was one hurdle : fried chicken with skin

now bacon and pork i can live without. i know many muslims and southeast asia has a large muslim population so pork is easily avoided. and for some people, treated with distaste. (but thats just the muslims. chinese love pork!)

but fried chicken is just universal.

[CaliPoutine]

Maybe I shouldn't say this for fear of angry mobs coming after me, but I see both  over-indulgence of meat and vegetarianism as they exist in the US as a result of living in an affluent nation.

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I have to agree with this statement.

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an affluent nation with a notoriously cheap food policy.........

watch how things change this coming year.....

food prices are going to go through the roof...

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You're right on that!!

I see it already when I go over to MI. Milk is 1.00 more a gallon that in was in October. The cottage cheese I like is .50 more. Eggs are .75 more , etc, etc.

I don't eat red meat( I havent for 20 years) but I do eat fish, chicken and pork.

I'm actually weaning pork out of my diet, lately the smell of bacon does nothing for me. I think its the fatty bits that are grossing me out. Additionally, since moving to the country, I see Pigs and Cows in feedlots and trucks making their way to the States on almost a daily basis. I know those animals know they're on their way to slaughter. You can see it in their eyes!!

[zeffer81]

Maybe I shouldn't say this for fear of angry mobs coming after me, but I see both  over-indulgence of meat and vegetarianism as they exist in the US as a result of living in an affluent nation.

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I have to agree with this statement.

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an affluent nation with a notoriously cheap food policy.........

watch how things change this coming year.....

food prices are going to go through the roof...

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You're right on that!!

I see it already when I go over to MI. Milk is 1.00 more a gallon that in was in October. The cottage cheese I like is .50 more. Eggs are .75 more , etc, etc.

I don't eat red meat( I havent for 20 years) but I do eat fish, chicken and pork.

I'm actually weaning pork out of my diet, lately the smell of bacon does nothing for me. I think its the fatty bits that are grossing me out. Additionally, since moving to the country, I see Pigs and Cows in feedlots and trucks making their way to the States on almost a daily basis. I know those animals know they're on their way to slaughter. You can see it in their eyes!!

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I was just reading in Harper's that poor American children eat more meat than affluent ones, on a weekly basis.

[feedmec00kies]

I was just reading in Harper's that poor American children eat more meat than affluent ones, on a weekly basis.

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Not too surprised, since that seems to be averaged, and so there would be an effect on the "meat eating rate" by families that try to cut down on (or out) meat intake for health or ethical reasons. I'd actually like to know if the Harper's article actually said what kind of meat each group was consuming on average, as well. I'm sure that poor American children are eating more processed, "fast food" kinds of meat. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a result of the broad cultural associations people seem to have with meat and being "satisfied" or "full" (associations that span across socio-economic groups) that are more likely to be countered only when food choices become broader.

Those astronomically low food prices certainly don't help to produce quality food - they really aren't across the board as much as they are for certain crops and industries.

Keep in mind that in most nations, malnutrition among the poor is associated with starving children. In America, malnutrition among the poor is associated with fat children - because the cheapest stuff is what's laden with fats and sugars. In these instances, caloric bang-for-one's-buck usually takes precedence (not necessarily consciously). This is nothing new; sugar consumption as it exists now in the US has a lot to do with its use by the British (and then American) working classes during the Industrial Revolution. Sugar was used in particular by workers as a sweetener for caffeinated drinks (coffee/tea, which was supported by factory owners and the British government that found ways to reduce prices because sugar+caffeine increased worker productivity which increased what we now know as GDP). For the family, it that made it easier for both parents to work outside the home, particularly as used in jam, which could easily be spread onto bread by children when both parents were out working.

Additionally, access to fresh produce is more difficult in the urban areas where the bulk of our nation's poor reside. Supermarkets are reluctant to open locations in these areas because they fear crime, in particular (which adds to operating costs) and so too much food is picked up by busy parents/guardians from corner stores and fast food joints. I remember reading an article in the NY Times that kind of touched on food availability in poor urban areas (click here). In this article, it's framed within hopes for urban renewal for a part of Philadelphia, but you can kind of get a sense of what I'm talking about.

Forget vegetarians; food needs to be reformed.

[Lindacakes]

For me, it was pepperoni. The only meats I truly love are pepperoni and bacon.

For my girlfriend, it was hot dogs. A hot dog from the cafeteria at the Museum of Natural History to be exact.

[thursdaynext]

Enjoy your posts-

...I think it bothers people, for example, to see anthropological video or something of people roasting up a guinea pig in South America in a village, but I actually wonder how much those "owners" actually become to those animals; I doubt they see them as an extension of their families, and would scoff at the lengths that people in the US and similar nations go in treating their pets like family members; pet hotels, insurance policies, special foods... There's a difference between treating an animal ethically and treating it as family...

Don't forget the Tsembaga Maring of New Guinea and their pigs...

BTW, but I'm intending to read that Mary Douglas book linked above (only read portions so far), and would suggest it... there's some fun look at Leviticus and the Kosher dietary laws (I think it's considered her most important work).

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I personally enjoyed Marvin Harris more, along these same lines.

[Susie Q]

Well, I don't know about everybody else, but my organically raised, sustainable-harvested-fed, Beethoven-played-to, free-range pig sang the "Circle of Life" song with me right before I did him in.

I think it made him taste even better.

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If my pig could sing "Circle of Life" I wouldn't dispatch him and turn him into BBQ. That porker would be on tour fattening my wallet.

How does the old joke go about the pig that saved the farmers life and was missing a leg..."A great pig like that you don't eat all at once."

All fun aside. I have great respect for the meat I eat. My grandfather was a full service butcher and I went hunting with my uncles. I know what it takes to put meat on the table. I appreciate every bite.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Susie Q (log)

[pax]

Forget vegetarians; food needs to be reformed. 

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Yeah, that, all that.

If my pig could sing "Circle of Life" I wouldn't dispatch him and turn him into BBQ.  That porker would be on tour fattening my wallet.

All fun aside.  I have great respect for the meat I eat.  I know what it takes to put meat on the table. I appreciate every bite.

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Weeelllll, you know, neither of them really sang. Unless they thought it was time to eat and then they let me know they did not appreciate dawdling. My family chooses to occasionally eat meat. I choose, therefore, to procure it in as healthy a manner as possible. It's not a hard stretch for me because I am already making my living in an agricultural business (Jumpers.) I watched the melamine issue unfold..the contaminated Diamond dog food, then fed to pigs, which then went into the human food chain. I posted about it here and got zero interest, which really surprised me. If I didn't have the option of paying the guys to weed the garden and squash the bugs and asking the feed guy to just throw some Pig/Sheep/Chicken Chow on the truck along with the horse feed, vegetarianism would be the way to go.

Edited February 3, 2008 by pax (log)