Using a Pacojet

[Sethro]

adding water or juice seems counterintuitive...when frozen and re-spun/pacotized, it will end up just as icy, no?  it would seem better to adjust your formula to include more sugar or glucose or something which will not freeze and will give better texture.

sethro, you can use any normal frozen yogurt recipe and pacotize.  do you hold the air valve in when spinning?

ours was something like:

8# yogurt

2.2# sugar

+ flavoring and juice

splash of corn syrup

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I have only a batch freezer right now. I'm just researching recipes for my next endeavor, and I've never spun yogurt in a paco. Do you still drain the yogurt as you would normally, or is that now unnecesary?

[alanamoana]

i think it depends on what texture you'd ultimately like your final product.

as much as you can control texture with stablilizers and the like, draining your yogurt will cause you to end up with a 'richer' feeling end product and not draining obviously an icier or 'lighter' product. but all that water needs to be balanced if you want to avoid a 'powdery' product.

edited to add: a refractometer is probably a decent investment and can be used for other applications as well so wouldn't be wasted

Edited March 22, 2007 by alanamoana (log)

[Sethro]

i think it depends on what texture you'd ultimately like your final product.

as much as you can control texture with stablilizers and the like, draining your yogurt will cause you to end up with a 'richer' feeling end product and not draining obviously an icier or 'lighter' product.  but all that water needs to be balanced if you want to avoid a 'powdery' product.

edited to add: a refractometer is probably a decent investment and can be used for other applications as well so wouldn't be wasted

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I have a decent one. Is there a certain brix you look for in paco bases?

[Nathan Kurz]

I'm trying to figure out how to make the best possible ice creams and sorbets using a Pacojet. My plan is to eventually sell these at farmers' markets, but right now I'm just working in a home kitchen. I've been experimenting furiously for the month that I've had the machine, and some things have been generally coming out pretty tasty. But I'm sure they could be much better.

Here's a few questions to start things off:

1) Sorbet recipes often call for adding different sugars to improve the texture and reduce crystallization. I understand that increasing the number of dissolved solids lowers them melting point. I've been using dextrose crystals in sorbet, and have been satisfied with the result. Since dextrose is the same compound as glucose, is there any reason to try other forms like glucose syrup? Does atomized glucose act any differently?

2) Most of the consumer level ice cream books I've seen (Liddell and Weir, Luchetti, Lebovitz) suggest tempering the eggs when making custard. Some of the more restaurant oriented books (Balaguer, Torreblanca) skip this step and just add the egg yolks to the warm milk as part of heating it to the proper thickness. Why do the popular books suggest tempering the eggs?

3) I'm having problems with some citrus varieties turning badly bitter when pacotized. Navel oranges go bitter, Valencias are fine. Research says this is delayed bittering due to LARL. All the grapefruits I've tried have been affected. Using only the juice solves the bitterness, but doesn't have the 'creamy' texture of the whole fruit version. How do I make a perfect grapefruit sorbet?

Answers of any level appreciated, as well as general advice on technique. Or if you have questions of your own, add them to the list. I probably won't know the answer, but maybe we'll catch the eye of someone who does.

Thanks!

Nathan Kurz

[John DePaula]

I'm trying to figure out how to make the best possible ice creams and sorbets using a Pacojet.  My plan is to eventually sell these at farmers' markets, but right now I'm just working in a home kitchen.  I've been experimenting furiously for the month that I've had the machine, and some things have been generally coming out pretty tasty.  But I'm sure they could be much better.

Here's a few questions to start things off:

1) Sorbet recipes often call for adding different sugars to improve the texture and reduce crystallization.  I understand that increasing the number of dissolved solids lowers them melting point.  I've been using dextrose crystals in sorbet, and have been satisfied with the result.  Since dextrose is the same compound as glucose, is there any reason to try other forms like glucose syrup? Does atomized glucose act any differently?

2) Most of the consumer level ice cream books I've seen (Liddell and Weir, Luchetti, Lebovitz) suggest tempering the eggs when making custard.  Some of the more restaurant oriented books (Balaguer, Torreblanca) skip this step and just add the egg yolks to the warm milk as part of heating it to the proper thickness.  Why do the popular books suggest tempering the eggs?

3) I'm having problems  with some citrus varieties turning badly bitter when pacotized.  Navel oranges go bitter, Valencias are fine.  Research says this is delayed bittering due to LARL.  All the grapefruits I've tried have been affected.  Using only the juice solves the bitterness, but doesn't have the 'creamy' texture of the whole fruit version.  How do I make a perfect grapefruit sorbet?

Answers of any level appreciated, as well as general advice on technique.  Or if you have questions of your own, add them to the list.  I probably won't know the answer, but maybe we'll catch the eye of someone who does.

Thanks!

Nathan Kurz

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I am not very experienced in ice cream making, but I can speak to one of your questions (#2 above). The egg yolks are tempered because you want to prevent getting little bits of scrambled eggs in your custard. You accomplish this by adding a bit of the hot cream to the yolks, whisking all the while, and then adding that back to the remaining hot cream.

Also, I'm sure you know that you want to heat this mixture up sufficiently to kill any bacteria - very important, at least in the US.

Edited November 6, 2007 by John DePaula (log)

[Nathan Kurz]

2) Most of the consumer level ice cream books I've seen (Liddell and Weir, Luchetti, Lebovitz) suggest tempering the eggs when making custard.  Some of the more restaurant oriented books (Balaguer, Torreblanca) skip this step and just add the egg yolks to the warm milk as part of heating it to the proper thickness.  Why do the popular books suggest tempering the eggs?

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I am not very experienced in ice cream making, but I can speak to one of your questions (#2 above). The egg yolks are tempered because you want to prevent getting little bits of scrambled eggs in your custard. You accomplish this by adding a bit of the hot cream to the yolks, whisking all the while, and then adding that back to the remaining hot cream.

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Thanks for getting things going!

I'm with you as to why one is told to temper eggs, but this still doesn't explain why the professionals are skipping this step and just adding the eggs yolks to the warm milk. For example, here are (approximately, from notes) Torreblanca's basic steps:

1. Weigh ingredients
   
2. Mix stabilizer with 10 times its weight in sugar
   
3. Mix milk with powdered milk at 4C
   
4. Add in sugars at 25C
   
5. Add in cream and melted butter at 35C
   
6. Add in aromas at 37C.
   
7. Add in egg yolks at 40C.
   
8. Add in stabilizer mixed with sugar at 45C.
   
9. Pasteurize at 85C for 2 minutes.
   
10. Homogenize if possible.
    
11. Cool down to 4C.
    
12. Mature at 4C for at least 4 hours, 48 at most.
    
13. Process.
    
14. Store in freezer at -25C.
    

In this version, the eggs are added to the lukewarm milk and cream as the temperature rises.

Also, I'm sure you know that you want to heat this mixture up sufficiently to kill any bacteria - very important, at least in the US.

Interestingly, the restaurant based European books seem to be even more concerted about this than the American home guides. Torreblanca suggests holding at 85C (185F) for two minutes, whereas Luchetti only says to cook until it reaches 175F (79.5C). I don't have his book in front of me, but for some of the recipes on his blog Lebovitz suggests only 160-170 F (71-77 C).

My guess is that that tempering at a high temperature (rather than adding the eggs at a lower temperature and slowly bringing the temperature up) is a vestige of scalding the milk. If you are going to scald the milk, you can't add the eggs at the beginning, and adding them to the almost boiling milk would cause them to scramble. Tempering is thus the fastest way to get the eggs in if the milk is already too hot.

For what it's worth, I've currently been tempering then heating to 185F. Tempering does have the advantage of insuring that the eggs are very well mixed in.

Nathan Kurz

[alanamoana]

i still temper as that was the way i was taught, but i don't think it makes a huge difference if you are careful enough. besides, for the most part, i strain all my custard bases through a chinois to avoid chunks of chalazae or cooked egg.

i think with the bitterness, is there a way to process the fruit so that you can avoid this? like when one candies citrus skin, you blanch several times in several changes of water to get rid of bitterness. can you peel the fruit, and do the insides fresh for brightness of flavor and blanch the skins and pith to avoid bitterness? poach the whole fruit? particularly with grapefruit...it tends to be the most bitter of the citrus.

[Nathan Kurz]

i still temper as that was the way i was taught, but i don't think it makes a huge difference if you are careful enough.  besides, for the most part, i strain all my custard bases through a chinois to avoid chunks of chalazae or cooked egg.

I haven't been straining anything, as the Pacojet does a pretty good job of homogenizing any small chunks. I haven't actually tried it, but I think you could probably freeze leftover scrambled eggs, cream, and sugar and it would process to a decent consistency.

i think with the bitterness, is there a way to process the fruit so that you can avoid this?  like when one candies citrus skin, you blanch several times in several changes of water to get rid of bitterness.  can you peel the fruit, and do the insides fresh for brightness of flavor and blanch the skins and pith to avoid bitterness?  poach the whole fruit?  particularly with grapefruit...it tends to be the most bitter of the citrus.

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That's essentially my plan for tomorrow. The bitterness (at least in oranges) is apparently caused by a flavorless compound in the juice (LARL) being enzymatically converted into bitter limonin when the sorbet is pacotized. Using only the juice avoids this (as best as I can tell) because the enzyme is only present in the peel and seeds.

I'm thinking of juicing the fruit, going through the first few steps of candying the peel, and then recombining the two to see if it still turns bitter. Alternatively, I might strip off the zest and then try extracting the pectin from the pith. I'll also try throwing in some citrus marmalade, adding apple pectin, and adding dry citrus pectin. Has anyone been down this road before?

Nathan Kurz

nate@verse.com

[BryanZ]

So usually I don't swing that way. You know, to the pastry side of things. But when I was offered a Pacojet on lend for a few weeks over the holidays I simply couldn't refuse. To be honest, it seemed too good to be true. I pay for shipping from the factory to my home, then to the purchaser, and I would have a Pacojet to play with a few weeks. Was this some kind of strange pyramid scheme, an attempt at identity theft playing right into my penchant for expensive culinary technology? I will admit these thoughts crossed my head. When I arrived home for the semester break on Sunday evening, however, I was pleased to find the device literally waiting on my doorstep.

For those unfamiliar with what a Pacojet is, it's pretty much the most baller ice cream maker ever--specifically it's a high-power food processor that "shaves" the frozen contents of its beakers into incredibly light and smooth sorbets, mousses, ice creams, etc. But it's also so much more, and that's why I'm choosing to put this thread in the cooking forum. With a basic understanding of how the device functions, its applications extend far beyond the sweet, pastry world.

For instance, the device can be used to make savory mousses, farces, and soup concentrates. To blur the lines between the sweet and savory world, an asparagus ice cream recipe is listed in the accompanying recipe book, and the folks over at Ideas in Food have achieved a bit of acclaim for their grilled potato ice cream (I will be attempting this).

For those with experience with the device, I appreciate your insights, advice, and feedback. For those just learning about it through this thread, I encourage you to learn with me and contribute ideas.

We began this triste by recruiting a third player. Since our home refrigerator is terrible and manages to freeze everything inside when the freezer is set too low, I went out and bought a cheap freezer from P.C. Richards. $160 lighter with a freezer crammed into the back seat of my mother's sedan, we were ready to begin.

I made four bases on Monday evening and set them to freeze for the requisite 24 hours. Tonight, I "spun" them. The results were pretty spectacular.

Meet PJ

Chocolate, cayenne, and olive oil ice cream

Frozen

Letting off the pressure

Pacotized and served

So light yet full of flavor. Free of any distracting iciness or gumminess.

Mango sorbet

Pacotized

Not quite as creamy as the ice cream but seeing as this is simply fruit, simple syrup, and water, the texture is unreal.

Served

Remaining beaker contents

You can see here how the contents are simply fruit suspended in frozen liquid. PJ shaves off how ever many portions you need. I'm still trying to get a feel for how the calibration works.

Pineapple

Served

Probably my favorite of the bunch. This was so subtle and fresh.

Apple

Pacotized

Again, you can see how the remaining contents are simply fruit and frozen liquid. It's mosaic-like.

Served

The iciest of the bunch. Not in that there were crystals or anything, but this had the least body. If one of these could've used some stabilizer or gum this was it.

All in all, the results were a complete success. This is a great machine that affords one textures not possible with any type of batch freezer I've used.

From here, savory and sweet-savory applications. Chime in, ask questions, what have you.

[BryanZ]

I'm chronicling my experience with the Pacojet, here. I have it on loan for a few weeks and plan to have some fun. Would love to hear ideas, advice, suggestions, recipes, whatever.

This device is sweet.

[alanamoana]

Bryan, there are sometimes issues with texture when spinning (shaving?!) custard bases. If, during your experimentation you notice any 'moussiness' (too much overrun), just hold in the blue air valve during the spinning process. You can use the corner of a business card or heavy piece of paper to keep the valve in.

[Chris Amirault]

Can you, like, assume a new identity, head for the hinterlands, and keep it?

Meanwhile, along the lines of your chocolate/chili/olive oil concoction, more with non-cream and -fruit bases, please. What happens to veal stock, hazelnut oil, and demerara rum in that contraption?

[twodogs]

Bryan,

Which company donated the pacojet for your services?

[Sethro]

Found that the best way to rig the valve button is simply sticking a cake tester in there. Viola.

If your sorbet is turning out icy did you try pacotizing it twice (in a row)? Adding stabilizer won't affect any ice crystals that occur in the product directly after spinning. Those crystals aren't caused by temperature fluctuation, they're just the result of the recipe. Like if you freeze granite in a beaker and spin its going to have larger crystals than a good sorbet recipe naturally. If you're happy with the flavor then try adding some glucose and subtracting a bit of sugar.

Also, if your putting chunks of fruit in the beaker, you've got to process the entire thing at least once. Depending on the buoyancy of the fruit there's going to be higher concentrations in certain depths.

Here's the sorbet syrup I use for most paco recipes:

4000 g water

900 g glucose powder

300 g dextrose

300 g trimoline

1500 g sugar

24 g sorbet stabilizer

Its not ideal for everything but a with a little trial and error its saved me a lot of time.

[BryanZ]

Can you, like, assume a new identity, head for the hinterlands, and keep it?

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Based on tonight's results I'm sincerely considering it. I'm too easy to track down though.

Bryan,

Which company donated the pacojet for your services?

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The individual in question may choose to make himself known here. He's an eG poster, starting a business.

If your sorbet is turning out icy did you try pacotizing it twice (in a row)? Adding stabilizer won't affect any ice crystals that occur in the product directly after spinning. Those crystals aren't caused by temperature fluctuation, they're just the result of the recipe. Like if you freeze granite in a beaker and spin its going to have larger crystals than a good sorbet recipe naturally. If you're happy with the flavor then try adding some glucose and subtracting a bit of sugar.

Also, if your putting chunks of fruit in the beaker, you've got to process the entire thing at least once. Depending on the buoyancy of the fruit there's going to be higher concentrations in certain depths.

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I totally forgot about pacotizing twice in the excitement of it all. The apple was by no means bad, it just lacked the innate creaminess of the other sorbets. In many ways, it was the most sorbet-like.

Do you know where I can get dextrose and glucose quickly? I'd prefer not to have stuff shipped in, but I'm willing to drive if you can give me the type of store that would carry said products. Right now I'm just sweetening with 1:1 simple syrup.

Grilled potato ice cream is in production and will be frozen tonight. Accompaniments? I don't have access to any Blis caviar unfortunately.

[BryanZ]

Sethro, what's the benefit of holding down the blue button again. I read it somewhere, but I forget now.

Potatoes are cooking.

[Mallet]

Dextrose should be easy to get from any homebrew store (bottling sugar). I envy you.

[Abra]

One of the best things I've ever had from a PJ was made form just pure orange juice. It was utterly unreal.

Lucky you to have one to play with!

[twodogs]

serve the grilled potato ice cream with some scrambled eggnog, tis the season

and what sort of business is being started?

[Sethro]

Sethro, what's the benefit of holding down the blue button again.  I read it somewhere, but I forget now.

Potatoes are cooking.

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It keeps the air release open, so that you can avoid excess over-run. Its only necessary for mixtures with high starch, pectin or stabilizer content, all which will increase over-run significantly. You might find that's the case with your potato flavor.

Dextrose and glucose are available through chef rubber, or you can get same day delivery in Manhattan from L'epiciere (for $15 extra I think).

Edited December 19, 2007 by Sethro (log)

[BryanZ]

serve the grilled potato ice cream with some scrambled eggnog, tis the season

and what sort of business is being started?

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Will do. Thanks for the idea (in food). I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

It's an artisanal ice cream/gelato operation, or something. I'd plug if I knew more.

[alanamoana]

you can probably get glucose from ny cake and baking down on 22nd(?)

[Sethro]

you can probably get glucose from ny cake and baking down on 22nd(?)

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I'm pretty sure they only have glucose syrup?

[Tri2Cook]

I don't have a thing to add, never been near a paco jet, just wanted to mention that I'm very jealous.

[alanamoana]

you can probably get glucose from ny cake and baking down on 22nd(?)

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I'm pretty sure they only have glucose syrup?

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ahhh sorry, just re-read your recipe...dry glucose!

you can also check with dairyland. they're up in the bronx but i think they let you pick stuff up if you're not ordering via a restaurant?! i'm pretty sure they have dextrose and stuff...but probably only in bulk. you're right with l'epicerie you can get small amounts of things.

my old boss actually had holes drilled in his paco jets (at a previous restaurant) so he wouldn't have to deal with holding in the blue valve. we just used the corner of a thick business card which did the trick.