Crust secrets

[Doodad]

I have finally gotten my bread to the point where it is really good. But, I can't figure out crust. How do you get that crunchy golden outside? I have tried several washes, water in the oven (that was closest). It is still too pale and not nearly crunchy enough. What do I need to do?

[Tepee]

Bake it in a pot, and hear your bread sing and the crust crackle.

[Doodad]

Bake it in a pot, and hear your bread sing and the crust crackle.

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I often bake it in what amounts to a large ramekin, but still do not get the crust I am wanting.

[tino27]

You can also try cracking the oven door for the last 5 minutes of baking to help evacuate any moisture in the oven.

I've yet to find a good home oven that gives that nice thick crust.

[Tepee]

Bake it in a pot, and hear your bread sing and the crust crackle.

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I often bake it in what amounts to a large ramekin, but still do not get the crust I am wanting.

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Did you have a relatively wet dough? It's basically the no-knead method, of throwing the dough into a heated pot, cover it, then remove the cover for the last 15 mins. I was reading all about hearing bread sing and couldn't believe my ears when it actually happened for my 'pot' bread. Gorgeous crispy crust.

Ahh...I missed the pale part. That could be due to over-proving your bread...the sugars are depleted.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Tepee (log)

[Pam R]

Yup. The no-knead bread is all about the crust. Have you tried baking it?

[Doodad]

Yup. The no-knead bread is all about the crust. Have you tried baking it?

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I have not. Funny though, the breakthrough I had was in minimal kneading in the mixer. I realized it was just beating the heck out of the gluten I guess.

I will check on the no knead.

Over proving? Can you elaborate? Or is it that I don't have enough sugars?

Thanks all.

[dougal]

... I can't figure out crust.  How do you get that crunchy golden outside?  I have tried several washes, water in the oven (that was closest).  It is still too pale and not nearly crunchy enough. What do I need to do?

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You might try -

- letting the yeast work longer (and cooler). Like overnight in the refrigerator... Especially with just a little bit (5% or less) of rye in the flour (for the enzymes), you should get a *much* darker crust. (And tastier bread too... )

- letting the dough 'skin' ever so slightly by drying for a few minutes before hitting the oven.

- if you use a boiling water pan in the oven, removing it after the oven 'spring' is properly complete (maybe 10 minutes in). (The loaf is not a fantastically delicate soufflé at that point!) But keep it steaming if you are aiming for a chewy crust.

- if you are baking in a tin, take the loaf out of its tin for the last several (ten or so) minutes of baking

- putting the loaf on a rack in a draught when it comes out of the oven. Putting it under a cloth to trap the moisture does soften the crust very effectively, so the opposite should do no harm to crisping it. But you may need to give it just a few minutes of extra baking, because its not going to 'cook' as much after it comes out.

- using a softer flour. Its a radical step, but the fragile crisp (biscuit?) crust of real french, french bread is made without very strong flour. Yes there's lots more to it than that, but softer flour tends towards a lighter more brittle crust, IMHO.

[saucée]

I've had some success in this area by starting the bread at 550 F, steaming with a pan and every 30 seconds with a spray bottle for 2 minutes (three sprays). Then, I take out the pan and stop spraying, reducing the heat to 450. As far as I've read you don't want to steam too long. Peter Reinhart in the Bread Baker's Apprentice says that steaming is only effective for the first 2 minutes. Harold McGee says that oven-spring is typically over after 6-8 minutes. He also says that the purpose of steam is that it enables the surface of the loaf to heat up four times faster while also keeping it more elastic and able to expand (this is "oven spring"), p.540 of _On Food and Cooking_ 2nd ed.

So try to get your oven as hot as possible, 550 or 500, then steam for less time. Then bake until the loaf is at least 205 internally.

josh

[fooey]

So try to get your oven as hot as possible, 550 or 500, then steam for less time.  Then bake until the loaf is at least 205 internally. 

josh

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I agree with josh. Your oven is not hot enough.

Everytime you open your oven, you lose about 50 F, so if you start at 550 F and steam 3 times, you're already down to 400 F or less. Your oven needs to be really hot and you need to steam it two or three times in the first few minutes.

I use one of those garden pump sprayers you can buy from home depot for $10-15.

One caveat, and I hope someone more knowledgeable here will comment, but if the recipe you are using calls for milk or fat (oil, butter), you'll never get a hard crust. Be careful with the oil you use on the dough, as you need very little, just enough to lightly coat the dough, to prevent it from drying.

Re: baking in a pot or no knead bread: I wish these ideas would just vanish from the bread baking lexicon. It works to a point, sure, but it teaches you absolutely nothing about the art of and joy of baking bread. It's the lazy way out, the Walmart version of bread baking.

[andiesenji]

I agree with the high heat solution. I was a professional baker early on and learned that ovens made for home use rarely get hot enough to produce a thick, crunchy crust as is desired in "artisan" or "rustic" loaves. In the '70s I had a Garland range installed (which required putting in a larger gas line) and after I moved up here to the desert, I bought a Blodgett stand-alone oven (which again required a larger gas line and considerable alteration to the floor and walls because of the high heat.) It was a convection oven with a large fan in the back and a steam-injection system which also required installation of a water line. I did a lot of baking and as it operated at higher temps and could be set to inject steam for a set time, it produced great artisan or rustic breads for ten years.

As I no longer bake much, I sold it to a friend a few months ago.

I have not yet decided what kind of built-in oven to put in its place.

I have had a Cadco "countertop" half-sheet-pan-size convection oven for a few years and the top temp setting on it is 572 F and it will produce a fairly good crust on an artisan loaf.

I sprinkle corn meal on a sheet pan, put the shaped loaf on the meal and let it rise.

I bring the oven up to temp, (usually 550 F.) liberally spray the loaf with water, top with seeds, if appropriate, put half a dozen ice cubes on the sheet pan and stick it in the oven.

I don't open the oven again until the loaf is done.

The action of the steam only affects the loaf for the first minute or so at this temp, allowing it to stretch or "spring" and after that it really has little effect, other than to drop the temperature of the oven.

[UnConundrum]

First, are you baking on a pizza stone or similar material? That helps a lot. Also make sure your oven is well pre-heated. Not just hitting the desired temp, but sitting there a good half hour. You want to minimize the heat loss from opening the door so you need whatever retained heat you can get. The baking stone is a fair help in this, but you have to make sure it too is heated through.

Second, as mentioned, steam is very important. Put a pie pan (metal) on the bottom of your oven and throw some ice cubes into it just before you close the oven door. They will melt and vaporize into steam.

Do not put oil on your dough. Use a water based solution. Water thickened with corn starch (cooked) is wonderful, especially if you want a shine to your loaf or want to place seeds on top. It acts like glue

[dougal]

Moisture (humidity) is important, very important, during the time that the loaf is rising rapidly ("springing") in the oven.

Humid air carries more heat, so the loaf gets more heat, more quickly. Which is good, because the loaf will rise further before it sets, the more rapidly heat can be got into the dough.

We are probably all aware that moisture increases heat transfer - ever used a damp oven glove? Painful!

This is also why you get a lighter loaf by putting the dough into a really hot oven and a well-heated (and 'powerful') stone helps 'hearth' (tinless) baking, and using a matt black (rather than shiny silver) loaf tin will give a better risen loaf - it absorbs the heat better and transfers it to the dough.

Humidity also affects the processes of crust formation.

It is said that high initial humidity keeps the crust stretchy for longer. Maybe.

Certainly preventing the hardening crust from restricting the dough expansion will give a lighter crumb. (One reason I slash the dough).

But what of humidity and the crust?

If I apply high humidity throughout the bake, the results I get are a thick tough crust.

Personally, I routinely boost the humidity in the oven before putting the dough in.

And stop boosting it once the spring has sprung - and set (I don't want it to collapse in the slightest).

Some folk deliberately wet the top of the dough when it goes in - possibly to hopefully help with crust elasticity.

My experience is that wetting the dough gives a thicker, 'chewy' crust. Nice enough, but I understand from the original post that the target is a 'crunchy' crust.

I suggested a few things to investigate in my earlier post, for crunch and colour.

However in this post, I've addressed moisture and humidity.

But I didn't say *steam*.

Because what most folks call "steam" is the visible cloud of water droplets...

Boil a kettle. Let it boil hard while you examine it.

Look at the steam that comes out while it is boiling.

You'll see that its actually transparent when/where it comes out.

It only gets *visible* (changes from water vapour to "steam") when it cools to below 100C/212F (at standard atmospheric pressure) maybe an inch or so from the spout.

Aiming to have visible "steam" in your oven, is aiming to cool your oven.

This is the exact opposite of what you should be trying to achieve.

Ice gives lots of *visible* "steam". Because its cold!

But its not what bread needs.

Better to have hotter water vapour, well above 100C/212F, when it will be invisible.

Not gone, vanished, dispersed.

Just not visible. Because its at oven heat.

Personally, I generate a hot, humid oven atmosphere by preheating a thick pan with the oven (actually at the bottom of the oven), and I splash boiling water into the pan (leaving only a very little in the pan) and close the door, while I slash the dough, then reopen and load the oven.

After 10 minutes or so, I open the oven to remove the (maybe already dry) pan (and release a lot of hot damp air - even though its not visible steam, its still pretty moist!) - and by then, I'm not too worried about the brief cooling this causes.

Water vapour in the bread oven doesn't have to be visible steam.

Its actually better if it isn't visible.

Which is why using ice cubes (or opening the door every 30 seconds to spray cold water) isn't the best way to get it.

Edited December 8, 2007 by dougal (log)

[fooey]

This response should be framed.

In fact, I think Peter Reinhart recommends the exact same method (hot pan / boiling water) in his book Crust & Crumb.

It's how I do it and I get great results everytime.

Thanks, Doug.

Personally, I generate a hot, humid oven atmosphere by preheating a thick pan with the oven (actually at the bottom of the oven), and I splash boiling water into the pan (leaving only a very little in the pan) and close the door, while I slash the dough, then reopen and load the oven.

After 10 minutes or so, I open the oven to remove the (maybe already dry) pan (and release a lot of hot damp air - even though its not visible steam, its still pretty moist!) - and by then, I'm not too worried about the brief cooling this causes.

Water vapour in the bread oven doesn't have to be visible steam.

Its actually better if it isn't visible.

Which is why using ice cubes (or opening the door every 30 seconds to spray cold water) isn't the best way to get it.

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[CureCraftKing]

I have a solid bread recipe but it doesn't develope that nice rustic crust. I have heard of a few tricks: Ice or water in a pan at the botttom of the oven, Spray the bread with a squeeze bottle full of water during baking, Etc. Can anybody with baking experience help me out?

[OliverB]

not much experience here either, sorry, but yes, spray the oven walls a couple times at the beginning, that helps. And - if your oven has a glass window like so many, be very careful not to get any water on it when it's hot! Cover with lightly crumpled foil or the glass will break, leading to a big mess and costly repair. Care is especially necessary if you replenish water in a baking sheet in the oven.

[Kouign Aman]

pan, pour in boiling water when the bread goes in.

Check the technique in the 5 min bread thread.