Food Snobbery

[Suzanne F]

Thank you so much for that lesson.

[robert brown]

Steve S., why order red cow Parmesan that's already apportioned and sealed tight in plastic when you can go down to DiPalo's and have it hand-cut from the entire cheese and wrapped in paper? There's a place in Providence that sells the red cow variety and does the same thing. It was bad, relatively-speaking. Once I went to Marie Cantin in Paris to buy some cheese to take with me on the plane to Nice. They put the stuff "en sous-vide" which definitely compromised the cheese by making it moist. Selling cheese in quantities you don't want and putting it in Saran-Wrap are two of several reasons why I put my cheese buying on virtual hold when I walk into one of my local overpriced so-called specialty food stores. How's that for food snobbery?

[Bux]

Nina, a butty is a sandwich. So saying a "butty sandwich" is like saying "mesclun mix". Not done.

Pizza pie.

[Dave the Cook]

when I try to melt butter in the nuker, it (the butter, that is) explodes.  

Suzanne--It's the water in your butter that's exploding, similar to the water trapped in popcorn that makes it explode. If you use a lower power setting, the water will be able to exit the fat matrix more gracefully.

[GordonCooks]

This thread is a Virtual Bocce Ball tournament without a tape measure

[hollywood]

This thread is a Virtual Bocce Ball tournament without a tape measure

I saw your post and started working back up the thread. My god! You are so right. Looking down on this thread, it's a battlefield--after the fight.

[Dave the Cook]

This thread is a Virtual Bocce Ball tournament without a tape measure

I saw your post and started working back up the thread. My god! You are so right. Looking down on this thread, it's a battlefield--after the fight.

Are you kidding? I thought this sort of humor was lost when Douglas Adams died.

Oh, wait a minute. You guys are trying to be funny, right?

[hollywood]

This thread is a Virtual Bocce Ball tournament without a tape measure

I saw your post and started working back up the thread. My god! You are so right. Looking down on this thread, it's a battlefield--after the fight.

Are you kidding? I thought this sort of humor was lost when Douglas Adams died.

Oh, wait a minute. You guys are trying to be funny, right?

We like to think of it as therapy.

[cakewalk]

Nina, a butty is a sandwich. So saying a "butty sandwich" is like saying "mesclun mix". Not done.

Pizza pie.

Pita bread.

[S. Dedalus]

Suzanne - That's not the Chicago school, that's how democracy works and what it is regardless of what school you come from. It isn't that everybody is equal (economically that is,) it's that everyone has equal access to the economic system. You can walk out of your house today and do mutlitple things to make yourself a millionaire (assuming you aren't already one  .) No one and nobody is stopping you from doing it. People do it all the time without having much money to begin with. What about that isn't fair or is undemocratic? If you have a different definition of democracy other then it being the same chance to particpate in system with rules that are derived democraticly, please let me know what it is.

To follow up on Mike Lewis' pedantry, don't you mean the economic system of capitalism, rather than the political system of democracy.

[Jinmyo]

Nina, a butty is a sandwich. So saying a "butty sandwich" is like saying "mesclun mix". Not done.

Pizza pie.

Pita bread.

eGullet madness.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"To follow up on Mike Lewis' pedantry, don't you mean the economic system of capitalism, rather than the political system of democracy"

Don't you think that democracy extemds beyond the political system? Isn't it the ability to have the same rights as everyone else regardless of your circumstances? Same access to the economic system, same access to the justice system, same ability to pray for the god of your choice, or not at all, same rights to free speech etc. Aren't those rights plus many more, part and parcel with the right to cast your vote for the candidate of your choice?

[cugel_the_clever]

Man, you guys can beat a horse til it's a nothing but a big smear on the ground! (I'm not complaining, mind you-I'm fascinated).

[Zeb A]

Isn't the question that started this thread a definitional question (ie, what is a snob?). That question can be answered. The people who posted dictionary definitions got it right. Another way to go at it is by example:

1. Say I took my step-father Ralph to dinner at Arrows in Ogunquit Maine (a fancy expensive restaurant) (based on a true story). While trying to be a good sport, he did not have a good time. The meal was very expensive; he thinks foie gras is gross; the portions were small; etc. In contrast, I thought the meal was great, the food tasted great, etc.

2. A month later, he took me to this little hot-dog looking stand on some busy street in Arlington, VA where an El Salvadorean guy was serving burritos (or something that looked like a burrito) with all sorts of unusual ingredients. Ralph thought this was the best place. He would eat here every day if he could. I thought it was OK, but wasn't completely psyched about it.

We have different tastes. You can debate whose tastes are more consistent with yours or some particular group. You can't out-of-hand exclude anyone from having a legitimate opinion because, after all, we all have tongues and the ability to taste (or the vast majority of people do). (So, asking Ralph what tastes better is not like asking a blind man what looks better).

But, you don't need to debate that to define a snob.

If I think that Ralph is an inferior person because he prefers the hot dog stand to Arrows, I am a snob.

If Ralph thinks I am an inferior person because I prefer Arrows to the hot dog stand, then he is a snob (some might call it a reverse snob).

Its a free world, and you can be a snob. Some people won't mind. Some people won't like it.

[Steve Plotnicki]

If I think that Ralph is an inferior person because he prefers the hot dog stand to Arrows, I am a snob.

Zeb - Hey that was a good post. I'm sure Ralph is a fine person but that isn't the issue. The issue is that he has an inferior palate. Just like some people can't sing on key, don't have an eye to dress well, or are bad at math. In the world according to Steve P., telling someone the truth about their opinion shouldn't make you a snob.

[Jinmyo]

In the world according to Steve P., telling someone the truth about their opinion shouldn't make you a snob.

No, it makes you Steve P.

[Zeb A]

In the world according to Steve P., telling someone the truth about their opinion shouldn't make you a snob.

It seems to me that there are two issues in your post: (i) can someone be objectively "wrong" in their opinion on issues of taste and (ii) whether telling them that you think they are wrong makes you a snob.

Issue 1 seems to the the real hot-button issue in the thread. I guess I fall into the camp that it is impossible to be wrong on issues of taste. I mean, a person can objectively sing on or off key. But you can't really challenge my personal belief that, for whatever reason (maybe I am tone deaf or have an ear problem), I prefer to hear an off key sound.

Issue 2 deals with whether, on issues of taste, you can respectfully disagree with someone (I think Big Macs taste better than Whoppers and I can prove that most people with refined palates who eat at nice restaurants and care about food agree, but I respect your opinion to the contrary because I know that you have eaten the two hamburgers and have taste buds.) If you can't respectfully disagree, but, instead, feel like the person with the Whopper fetish is a lesser quality human, then, I think, you are a snob. (And, if it appears to others that you think the Whopper guy is an inferior human, then they will likely consider you to be a snob)

[oraklet]

i find it absolutely hilarious that the word "democratic" managed to sneak in somewhere on page something.

the word means "ruled by the people". should i add that it doesn't mean "equal", "fair" or "free"?

[Steve Plotnicki]

"Issue 1 seems to the the real hot-button issue in the thread. I guess I fall into the camp that it is impossible to be wrong on issues of taste. I mean, a person can objectively sing on or off key. But you can't really challenge my personal belief that, for whatever reason (maybe I am tone deaf or have an ear problem), I prefer to hear an off key sound."

I think that is silly. The notes of the scale on a piano are prescribed in advance. There is a mathematical equation that makes a note a middle C, and one a D a full step above it. And while there is a margin of error in how a piano can be tuned, at some point a piano is out of tune. If a piano is out of tune and your ear can't detect it, you have bad ears. And the people who can discern even the slightest bit of dissonence have good ears. It's not a matter of opinion it's a fact. How much salt to add to a dish, even though the standard applied is not as rigorous as the piano example, so the range of what is acceptable might be wider, works on the same principal. People with good palates can detect that too much or too little has been added. People with bad palates can't tell.

Let's take mashed potatoes since I do so well with that topic. Over the years, there must be at least 50,000 cookbooks published with recipes for mashed potatoes. And I will guess that if you laid out all the recipes side by side and analyzed how much salt they added, we would come up with a commonly held standard of what is an appropriate amount to add. Some people have good enough palates so they can tell when someone varies from the standard. Others do not. That is what the hot button issue is around here. People who can't tell do not want to be told they are wrong about it. They say that taste is completely subjective. I say nonsense. There is a standard as to what the right amount to add is and there are people with palates that are good enough to detect when someone has varied from the standard. And I would bet you that the people who won't admit that a standard exists, and who insist it's all a matter of personal taste, 99.9999% of them would identify mashed potatoes that didn't conform to the standard as too salty, or not salty enough.

[Tonyfinch]

I may be going crazy but I didn't think that was the issue at all. Does anybody dispute that within certain parameters of more or less there is the "right" amount of salt to add to mashed potatoes?

But what about other ingredients? Cheese, or mustard,or sour cream or chives or lemon juice or whatever whatever that recipes add to mashed potato

In order to agree a "standard" of the "right" amounts of those ingredients to add to the mashed potato you must first establish that they are PER SE the "right" ingredients to add in the first place.

If I say "I like mustard in my mashed potato" we can discuss which mustard and how much and maybe come to a consensus. But the consensus follows from the assumption that mustard in my mashed potato is what I want, NOT that mustard is the "correct" ingredient to add

And, unlike salt, there will be no such consensus.

[John Whiting]

SteveP wrote:

And while there is a margin of error in how a piano can be tuned, at some point a piano is out of tune.

*All* pianos are out of tune, because they are tuned to equal temperament, which is a compromise allowing the instrument to play in different key signatures. Orchestras accompanying a piano concerto are aware of this, and tune to each other differently because their *true* turing would in fact sound out of tune against the piano.

So -- is the piano "wrong"? Some musicians with perfect pitch find it so and do not regard it as a pleasant instrument to listen to. Up to the time of Bach, a harpsichord was tuned differently to play in different key signatures, and his "Well-Tempered Clavier" was written to "sell" equal temperament for the sake of its convenience. Knowing that it was a compromise, he wrote each prelude and fugue in such a way as not to show the discordant elements too prominently.

You might regard equal temperament as the rough equivalent of an all-purpose sauce, like ketchup, designed to go with the largest number of different foods. OK with beans on toast -- but would you like it with every course in a menu degustation?

[Jason Perlow]

Page 8. Jesus Christ, are you guys done yet?

[Lord Michael Lewis]

The comparison between the mathematical designation of musical notes and salting food sets a new low in reasoning.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Tony - The sum total of all of your posts is that you refuse to acknowledge there is a standard when the item in discussion is not typical. That goes for mustard mash as well as wine. But when the item is typical, like salt in potatoes, you agree that a consensus can be reached. But what you refuse to see, and I'm not sure why this is the case, is that the consensus is made up of the people actually doing it. Less people like mustard inflected mased potatoes but there are enough of them, and it has been going on long enough, for a consensus to have been reached.

But having said all of that, there are people out there who do not need the consensus to know right from wrong. They can do it by tasting. Exactly the same way that a person with a good sense of pitch can tell when a piano is out of tune just by listening to it being played. He doesn't need a tuning device to reach that conclusion. And what I find amusing about all this, is that I know you, and many others here who argue against the concept of standards and the notion of there being a right and wrong, have good enough palates to do exactly what I am describing. Except when we get into an area where people have less experience as tasters, they all of a sudden revert to saying everything is subjective. Bollocks I say.

I think that nothing debases the quality of food more then the fallacy of saying that good taste is subjective. Countless numbers of growers, producers, wholesalers, restauranteurs etc., take advantage of the fact that people who do not know good from bad insist that that they are entitled to call the pap they are eating or drinking delicious. We can take the worst rot served on an airline flight and I gurantee they will produce someone who enjoyed his meal and feels entitled to say it was "good." You might be willing to live by those standards but I choose not to. And for anyone to call me a snob because I want to raise the standards to a high level, they should know that the choice they have made is vanity over quality. Because what has raised the quality of the food we eat over the last 30 years is that the public has demanded it. And those who don't know or can't tell, are not in a position to demand an improvement in anything.

John W. - I think what you just wrote redounds to the fact that there is no "perfect" when it comes to tuning pianos and indeed what is considered perfect is just a range of acceptable relationships between notes. That is futher complicated by unique conditions of the way a piano is constructed, humidity, etc. So for the purpose of my original point, please understand that my example subsumes these conditions you have identified, and others which haven't yet been identified.

[Steve Plotnicki]

The comparison between the mathematical designation of musical notes and salting food sets a new low in reasoning.

I guess that someone who couldn't tell under or over salting when tasting food might feel that way about it.