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Food Snobbery


stellabella

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Different people have different numbers of taste buds. Those with few taste buds (non-tasters) are much less sensitive to sweetness, bitterness, etc. than those with many taste buds (super-tasters).

I see it coming already, a mensa-like society for supertasters open only to those with so many taste buds. A room full of supertasters who heretofore got no respect from sommeliers.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Brian (and all the Brians of this world) cannot be educated.  Obviously false.

I don't see that this is obviously false. Why shouldn't variations in physiology result in variations in taste? Even learned responses might become sufficiently hardwired to be irremediable.

Hmmm. Good point (scientific too). Clutch, clutch, straw, straw.

Not that I understand what anyone is trying to say. But the Presidents Bush both hate broccoli. I doubt they could be educated -- and, no, I'm not making a joke about their limited intellect. Some people just don't like some tastes. Many people don't like brussel sprouts, cauliflower, kidney, no matter how many of the top 500 chefs tell them that kidney's taste terrific.

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"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

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Super-tasters are not rare but comprise 10% of men and 35% of women.

I remember posting about a distiller of wonderful eaux-de-vie near Agen, France. Based on his observances of those tasting at his distillery and their ability to recognize the illusive qualities each fruit departs to the alcohol, he became convinced that women had a better sense of taste than men. When he said that, my wife gave me the look of knowing superiority. I agreed that she had better taste as proven by our choice in mates. Our daughter is known to often express the opinion that I must really like sleeping on the couch.

:biggrin:

The relevant issue here, might be what happens to that range of tastes we don't taste. Are they anything like the noises dogs hear? It implies that some of the diners in the restaurant are not tasting what the chef tasted, or that some of them are tasting things he didn't know were in the food. It would be nice to match up with a chef with similar TQ (Taste Quotient). It would give new meaning to restaurant ratings and a whole new set of pithy Zagat quips. "Not highly refined, but those with a TQ below 7.6 won't know the difference." "Most diners say it's just not worth the money, but those with a TQ of 11.7 or more will find real value." Perhaps because of the difference in what various tasters can taste, we'll find the numbers on the menu that will let us choose the dishes most suited to our handicap or we'll offer our TQ to the waiter the way we let him know about our allergies or susceptibility to MSG or caffeine.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Well, this has been a fine conversation. I am glad that at last we both agree.

Yes, indeed it was. I too am glad we have settled this not only amicably but in perfect agreement.

:shock:

"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

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The information that g.johnson provided regarding super, medium and non-tasters raises some fascinating questions which have been commented on but not tackled head on. (The Bush's in all likelihood don't like broccoli because they are super tasters.)

If the population divides into at least 3 groups that taste foods differently, then there is probably no single objective standard for taste. I would guess that the quality of particular foodstuffs in and of themselves would probably not change, a fresh crisp tomato would be perceived as better than a mealy one, but which foodstuffs one would choose to use in a particular dish and the associated flavorings might well be different. If the bulk of the population is composed of medium tasters, then it is possible that they are imposing their standards on the other groups who are being told what they should like, but really don't. Condescending to them by telling them that they have bad taste then just adds insult to injury.

Compounding the problem, my guess is that most leading chefs and food critics would have to be super tasters, because of their compelling need for discernment and accuracy, much in the way that many music composers and conductors have absolute pitch to a much greater extent than the general population. However, since they are producing for the general popultation of medium tasters, there is a fundamental mismatch that they need to adjust to for their audience. This can be rather difficult and may be one explanation as to why we dislike certain leading chefs or reviewers. I can easily imagine a super taster chef producing food that a medium taster views as lacking oomph, but that a super taster may view as subtle and refined.

The question then arises as to which is superior from an evolutionary point of view. For the majority of our senses, there is a clear relationship, the more acute the better. For taste, we are being told that at some point, an increasing number of taste buds makes us eat less and so would appear to be disadvantageous. This is a question worth pondering.

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red wine or beer may be the correct choice with steak and fries, and happens to be what i prefer. but a nice cup of darjeeling (not a first flush, or crap, and NO milk or sugar) is surprisingly good, too!

you did notice the "surprisingly"?

edit: the "sugar" bit

christianh@geol.ku.dk. just in case.

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Marcus - I doubt your theory has any legs to it. Considering that supertasters are such a large percentage of society, I don't see that many people finding things like lemons too acidic or bitter. People pretty much eat the same foods, and I see no evidence that there is a group of super tasters who have materially different eating habits. I can extend this theory to saying that the group of supertasters is so large that one would think that there would be a chef or s group of food products that caters to their palates. I think a better answer is that people who are in this category train their palates in a way that allows them to conform to a broader standard of taste.

Oraklet - Theoretically, one could smoke meats over darjeeling. So the combination isn't that surprising.

That's another aspect of this discussion that we haven't touched on. Prune juice or milk with steak frites might be wrong or incorrect but, steaks are certainly served with milky sauces sometimes and there must be a way to reduce prunes into an essence or condiment and spice them in a way so it goes with a steak.

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Inasmuch as what we loosely call taste is largely smell, "supersmellers" would be even more sensitive to nuance than supertasters. For instance, Robert Parker as a young man, well before he discovered his calling, could immediately detect or even identify the aftershave of a man who had just entered at the opposite side of a large room. I wonder how he deals with the monumental BO of French vineyard workers? :blink:

John Whiting, London

Whitings Writings

Top Google/MSN hit for Paris Bistros

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Steve, you should read the entire link provided by g.johnson on page 10. In fact supertasters are a small part of the population, 10% of men and 35% of women and the differences in their objective perceptions of food taste is quite profound. I know that you would like to dismiss this line of thought, because it doesn't fit into your theories, but you should take a real look.

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I just read the article properly for the first time, and was disappointed to find that it really is only about tastebuds on the tongue, which play an important but very limited role in our sense of flavor. Take Robert Parker, for instance. I don't know how his tongue would perform in that test, but it wouldn't really matter. Wines generally taste pretty much the same as far as the tongue alone is concerned. The highly complex flavor notes someone like Parker can discern are received by olfaction (receptors up behind your nose).

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I agree with regard to wine, but not food. Food is much more balanced in the importance of taste versus smell. In particular, supertasters find a large number of foods excessively bitter, which would have a profound effect on ones overall perception of a composed dish. The fact that supertasters appear to eat less overall than mediumtasters shows how fundamentally important this distinction is.

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I just read the article properly for the first time, and was disappointed to find that it really is only about tastebuds on the tongue, which play an important but very limited role in our sense of flavor.  Take Robert Parker, for instance.  I don't know how his tongue would perform in that test, but it wouldn't really matter.  Wines generally taste pretty much the same as far as the tongue alone is concerned.  The highly complex flavor notes someone like Parker can discern are received by olfaction (receptors up behind your nose).

I'm not sure that's true. The ‘tastes’ that we do perceive from the taste buds -- bitter, sour, salt, sugar, unami -- do color our overall perception of flavor. Thus a super-taster could find a dish that you or I think perfectly balanced overly sweet, say. I think this applies equally well to wine since much of the overall impression is derived from the balance of sweetness, acid (sour) and tannin (bitter). Moreover, if the super-taster has a normal olfactory response it will, presumably, throw out the balance of olfactory and tongue sensations.

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Marcus - 10% of men and 25% of women is not a small part of the population. In fact that is such a significant percentage of the overall population that one would think they could create enough demand that someone would create food or a cuisine specifically for them. In fact I bet that this grouping of tasters is more populated then the group of people who are vegetarians. And there are vegetarian restaurants everywhere. It seems to me that given the fact that there isn't any special food or cuisine for the percentage of the populace who are super-tasters, either the writer is incorrect, the people who are super-tasters train their palates to accept off flavors, or they are living in silent misery while we enjoy a lomon tart while their eyes are bugging out of their heads on tasting it.

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Steve -- It is a large number, but requires people to recognize themselves as a group, which I suspect they cannot do and thus cannot band together to produce what they prefer. They may in fact be living in silent misery. Or perhaps more interestingly, the market has without anyone noticing, created a range of offerings covering all palates. In which case, good taste might be more multi-faceted than we realize.

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I'm not sure that's true. The ‘tastes’ that we do perceive from the taste buds -- bitter, sour, salt, sugar, unami -- do color our overall perception of flavor. Thus a super-taster could find a dish that you or I think perfectly balanced overly sweet, say. I think this applies equally well to wine since much of the overall impression is derived from the balance of sweetness, acid (sour) and tannin (bitter). Moreover, if the super-taster has a normal olfactory response it will, presumably, throw out the balance of olfactory and tongue sensations.

That's not my understanding as far as wine goes, by I may well be wrong. I thought that taste buds would only get you as far as telling a dry wine from a sweet one, a tannic wine from a soft one, and such like. But actually distinguishing a dry, tannic French Bordeaux, for example from a dry, tannic Australian Cab/Shiraz requires olfaction - to say nothing of the much finer distinctions which are there to be made. Two such very different wines, I understand, are not readily distinguishable by taste buds alone.

I can see that a significant deficit in pure taste might throw everything out of whack. Dunno if it does or not.

But I am teetering beyond the limits of my knowledge, and am happy to be corrected by someone who knows this stuff. I'm not sure bored physicists whiling away their Friday afternoon fall into that category. :raz:

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"It is a large number, but requires people to recognize themselves as a group, which I suspect they cannot do and thus cannot band together to produce what they prefer. They may in fact be living in silent misery."

Marcus - This might be true but I doubt it. Those numbers are something like 17 1/2% of the population. One would think that over the last 2000 years the trait would have manifested itself somehow. Maybe we don't realize it and those are people who predomimently buy bland foods.

How do super-tasters in places where they make super-hot cuisine like Southern India or Thailand deal with their situation? They have to walk around with a seltzer spritz bottle all of the time to chill their tongues out.

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In fact that is such a significant percentage of the overall population that one would think they could create enough demand that someone would create food or a cuisine specifically for them. In fact I bet that this grouping of tasters is more populated then the group of people who are vegetarians. And there are vegetarian restaurants everywhere. It seems to me that given the fact that there isn't any special food or cuisine for the percentage of the populace who are super-tasters, either the writer is incorrect, the people who are super-tasters train their palates to accept off flavors, or they are living in silent misery while we enjoy a lomon tart while their eyes are bugging out of their heads on tasting it.

There are two flawed assumptions in your argument (not bad – you’re improving).

First, you assume, without evidence, that there are no restaurants for super-tasters. I can think of several restaurants where the food seems bland to me. How do you know that those are not the restaurants where the super-tasters congregate?

Second, you assume incorrectly that super-tasters find all ‘normal’ food unpleasant. There is no evidence to support that assumption. Indeed the articles I’ve found mention dislike of the same few foods – cabbage, grapefruit, etc. I see no particular difficulty in avoiding those few foods in restaurants.

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