Wine lists in high-end restaurants

[sharonb]

Here's a question for those of you who frequent starred and other expensive Paris restaurants more frequently than I do.

Which do you find have the best wine lists. Here, I'm talking both about range, older vintages, etc., and price (as compared to what the wines can be purchased for at retail).

I have been invited to Le Meurice for my birthday on Nov. 15 and am curious about the wine list there, but in general would like to hear how things compare.

Food is extremely important to me, and I would choose between comparable restaurants based on sheer gustatory pleasure as opposed to setting, service, etc. - but wine is at the same level for me, and an unexciting or too overpriced wine list could be a deal breaker, for me as a diner.

Thanks!

[Carlsbad]

Taillevent has an extraordinary wine list. The short list can be seen on their website, but the extended wine list is unbelieveable.

[John Talbott]

Taillevent has an extraordinary wine list.  The short list can be seen on their website, but the extended wine list is unbelieveable.

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While this is not my beat; or beats; either high end or wine lists, I think Taillevent is the champion; I still have my circa 1968 wine list enshrined. But oddly enough, in this era Baratin for a low-end has great stuff.

[Bu Pun Su]

How's Taillevent's wine lists compared to La Tour D'Argent, Le Louis XV or Enoteca Pinchiorri? In general, do people refer to varieties (i.e. the number of brands), the number of bottles or the values of their stock on hands carried by the restaurant's wine cellar? Thanks

[sharonb]

But oddly enough, in this era Baratin for a low-end has great stuff.

That's interesting. Do they have older vintages? That's one thing that has been something of a letdown in my forays into the current well-received unstarred restaurants (Comptoir, Ribouldingue, Le Pré Verre, Paul Bert, etc.) - they have a very well-chosen selection of producers and wines, but mostly very young wines.

And markups are stiff.

I'm most interested in older wines, if not necessarily the top of the top, at least good domains or châteaux, and not ridiculously expensive.

I hate the feeling I'm drinking something I could easily purchase now in a local wine store. There's no point to that...

(Which is also why Lavinia's restaurant is not as much fun as it could be; unless you're blowing multiple hundreds of euros on an aged Bordeaux or Burgundy, the current selection is basically all 2004's and 2005's.)

[John Talbott]

But oddly enough, in this era Baratin for a low-end has great stuff.

That's interesting. Do they have older vintages?

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No, quite right, you'll have to go to the older cellars to find those.

[Carlsbad]

I found Taillevent's wine list to be much more accessable pricewise and in the manner it is presented, than either Enoteca Pinchiorri or La Tour d'Argent. (I haven't been to Le Louis XV, but from what I can see, I think the same would be true of it.)

I also have to say that I haven't been to the Enoteca since the early 90's, so my view of it might be dated. I found it to be the most pretentious restaurant I have ever seen. That is another story, however.

As for La Tour d'Argent, the sommelier brought the Bible-like wine list, which would take years to study properly, and then made us feel as if it were a bother to answer questions. He seemed bored. At his suggestion, we ended up with a tired white burgundy and an over-priced, but adequate red burgundy.

At Taillevent, it has been a different experience. The wine service (like the rest of the service) is helpful, friendly, gentle and enthusiatic. If you want a champagne, for instance, they bring you a champagne list in a separate wine list. They discuss the list as much or as little as you want, and they know their wines. The prices are very fair, and there are wines from 30E up to whatever you want to spend. If you order a less expensive wine, they serve it enthusiatically. There are many great choices in the 100E or less range. The short list is well chosen and easy to navigate. If you have an interest is a particular wine, they will bring the larger list and point you to it. For instance, a friend asked about a vin jaune with the cheese course, and the sommelier brought out the large list and recommended a Chateau Chalon that was 20 yrs or so old. As I recall, it was about 140E. Some of the staff (including M. Vrinat) actually gathered as it was opened. I was relieved that the wine was not more expensive since I didn't see the price before it was ordered, and the manner in which it was served was as if we had ordered a 2000E bottle.

[Bu Pun Su]

Carlsbad,

Thanks for the explanation.

It seems that among 2-3 star places, only Taillevent and Troisgros whose wines are sold at "reasonable" price. Or do I miss other places?

[emsny]

As with John Talbott, wine is not my beat, but let me interject that if you are eating in a fancy restaurant outside Paris it can be very rewarding to ask about local or at least regional wines rather than going right to the fifty pages of Famous Chateaux. Such restaurants and their wine buyers are likely to have good relationships with winemakers in the neighborhood, and it is possible to raise quite a bit of enthusiasm in a sommelier by asking about little-known local bottlings. Even in Paris, the owner's/chef's/sommelier's "home" region (no one is FROM Paris, of course) can be fertile ground for exploration at a reasonable price.

[sharonb]

Great story, Carlsbad, and emsny, I agree about finding unheralded gems. Some chefs are from Paris though; I found the wine list at Pierre Gagnaire too predictable, for instance (and in my case for next week, I believe Alléno is also Parisian), but oh well.

More than grands crus (though I like 'em, just don't see myself ordering them at restaurant prices), I am interested in good wines at the right age.

A friend recently had a 1978 Savigny-lès-Beaune that blew him away. Not a Chambertin or an Echezeaux, but he was absolutely charmed. And that's how it should be, I think.

[Dave Hatfield]

As with John Talbott, wine is not my beat, but let me interject that if you are eating in a fancy restaurant outside Paris it can be very rewarding to ask about local or at least regional wines rather than going right to the fifty pages of Famous Chateaux. Such restaurants and their wine buyers are likely to have good relationships with winemakers in the neighborhood, and it is possible to raise quite a bit of enthusiasm in a sommelier by asking about little-known local bottlings. Even in Paris, the owner's/chef's/sommelier's "home" region (no one is FROM Paris, of course) can be fertile ground for exploration at a reasonable price.

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Very true and a very good tip. Two examples:

- Chez Ruffet (2 stars in Juracon) Wonderful food and excellent service. I told the sommelier that I wanted both a white and a red from the area, but that I wanted him to choose as I didn't know the chateaus of the region. He chose two superb wines both under 30 Euros. The red (Chateau Viella) was so good that we asked for directions to the winery. Turns out the the Head Waited is from a village nearby. He wrote out directions that worked perfectly. Bought a few cases of the wine at 12 Euro/ bottle from the winery.

- Le Vieux Pont (1 star in Belcastel) The most fairly priced wine list that I've ever seen in a starred restaurant. Their 'coup de Cœur' list which changes monthly always has something really good at low prices. At our last visit a few weeks ago the White was 15 Euros! And it was very very good. I chose a red Madrian, oak aged (Madrians being produced within 10 miles of Belcastel) that astounded my two American wino friends who swear by Napa Valley. 19.50 Euros/ bottle!

Eat local and drink local is a formula for wonderful discoveries in the regions of France.

[emsny]

I'll be interested to hear from sharonb what she finds on the Meurice wine list - we'll be eating there towards the end of November. On my two past visits to the restaurant, other people chose the wine and indeed the food, so I was insulated from the process. Sharonb is right, I think, that Yannick Alléno is a city boy - I bet the family has roots somewhere in Deep France, though. Either that or my theory about nobody being from Paris is all wrong.

[Vinotas]

Great story, Carlsbad, and emsny, I agree about finding unheralded gems. Some chefs are from Paris though; I found the wine list at Pierre Gagnaire too predictable, for instance (and in my case for next week, I believe Alléno is also Parisian), but oh well.

More than grands crus (though I like 'em, just don't see myself ordering them at restaurant prices), I am interested in good wines at the right age.

A friend recently had a 1978 Savigny-lès-Beaune that blew him away. Not a Chambertin or an Echezeaux, but he was absolutely charmed. And that's how it should be, I think.

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Sadly, it is quite difficult to find older vintages in Paris (at least at prices that wouldn't make even Buffett stroke out). Your best bet for older bottles is something like a Savigny, which ages quite nicely in my experience, or a good producer in an off year.

I usually buy older wines at retail when in Paris or directly from the producer and take them to a dinner-making friend's place.

I just realized that I've never been to any of the 3-stars in Paris, I might have to hit the Taillevent list when the Euro calms down a bit. For now, I'll settle for a good bistrot with a nice, well-priced list. Or for that friend's place.

Cheers!

[sharonb]

emsny, I will be sure to post about my experience there.

Vinotas, well, it sounds like your Paris friend is a really good cook! Which is great, because it also sounds like you bring really good wines over...

Edited November 7, 2007 by sharonb (log)

[ameiden]

How's Taillevent's wine lists compared to La Tour D'Argent, Le Louis XV or Enoteca Pinchiorri? In general, do people refer to varieties (i.e. the number of brands), the number of bottles or the values of their stock on hands carried by the restaurant's wine cellar? Thanks

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The fundamental difference between the wine lists of Taillevent and Louis XV is that in Taillevent you find many modestly priced wines in the main list (the very old and very expensive are in a separate list that is only available upon request). At Louis XV the list is relatively small in comparison and does hardly contain anything under 100 Euros. Also, the names are quite predictable: Mouton, Lafite, Petrus etc. in a wide range of vintages but no "finds" from say the Provence or Languedoc.

[Vinotas]

Vinotas, well, it sounds like your Paris friend is a really good cook! Which is great, because it also sounds like you bring really good wines over... 

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Yes, she is quite the cook, so I do try to bring some good juice.

[Pork Belly]

But oddly enough, in this era Baratin for a low-end has great stuff.

That's interesting. Do they have older vintages? That's one thing that has been something of a letdown in my forays into the current well-received unstarred restaurants (Comptoir, Ribouldingue, Le Pré Verre, Paul Bert, etc.) - they have a very well-chosen selection of producers and wines, but mostly very young wines.

And markups are stiff.

I'm most interested in older wines, if not necessarily the top of the top, at least good domains or châteaux, and not ridiculously expensive.

I hate the feeling I'm drinking something I could easily purchase now in a local wine store. There's no point to that...

(Which is also why Lavinia's restaurant is not as much fun as it could be; unless you're blowing multiple hundreds of euros on an aged Bordeaux or Burgundy, the current selection is basically all 2004's and 2005's.)

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I share the same opinion that Taillevent has the best wine list of all the grand restaurants in Paris. And the price is more than fair. That said, a good old vintage at Taillevent would be very expensive, probably as expensive as the meal. One point to keep in mind is the type of food that is a good match with older vintages. I believe that is one of the reason why the food at Taillevent is much more conservative than that of Pierre Gagnaire whose food does not match as well with older wines. Also Pierre Gagnaire is a much newer restaurant than Taillevent, making its wine list much smaller. Great wine list takes time and in these days, a prohibitive budget and many older vintages are not even available for purchase. Also, you mentioned wine lists at Comptoire, Ribouldingue, Le Pré Verre, Paul Bert. These are inexpensive bistros and their wine lists reflect that.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Pork Belly (log)

[sharonb]

Yes, if I eat out at all, which I rarely do, I tend to eat at "inexpensive bistros." That is my lifestyle.

But this week, I am indeed upscaling my habits. I should be prepared to claquer hundreds of euros on wine, I know this. (And I know how much such wines cost in "real life" - which is why I prefer to drink my Chambertins at home.)

Good point about the age of the cellar. I think it also has to do with what is a priority for the restaurant. A place such as Fish, for instance, while an "inexpensive bistro," has a pretty hot wine list.

[Felice]

Just to note that the sommelier of Les Ambassadeurs, was just named 'meilleur jeune sommelier de France'.

[winemike]

A general remark about high end restaurant wine lists is that rare are those which offer great QPRs. The lists are, as you say, predictable.

Great names, great vintages and not so great prices.

I don't live in Paris (and have not been in quite some time) but think it's worse there than "en province".

When I really want to focus on wines, I eat at thome. Cook simple dishes to leave all the space for the wines.

The only downside?... the bottle is not replaced for free if it faulty.

Interesting would be, as you say as well, to get "good wines at the right age"... But have rarely seen such things in "top" places. Exceptions exist.

[vogelap]

I am anxious to hear Sharonb's report of her birthday dinner!

(happy birthday, by the way!)

[sharonb]

Thank you! It's tomorrow.

[sharonb]

When I really want to focus on wines, I eat at thome. Cook simple dishes to leave all the space for the wines.

The only downside?... the bottle is not replaced for free if it faulty.

This is true - a few months ago at La Muse Vin in Paris, we got two corked Pommards in a row... before switching to a Gevrey-Chambertin.

Another problem, though, with cooking at home in order to open great wines is that it tends to cramp one's cooking style. No wild concoctions if you want the vino to shine. Alas!

[sharonb]

Just a follow-up for those who were interested in hearing about my experience at Le Meurice.

Despite the transport strike, I was excited and all set to go. Well, my beloved other half had a work crisis, and (sortez vos mouchoirs) told me we had to cancel.

He's insisting we go there on the first evening he could get a new reservation (Nov. 27 - is the close date because we were potential customers already?), but I just feel a sense of enormous letdown and have not said yet. (For me, it's no fun celebrating your "birthday" two weeks after the fact, but I may just be strange.)

[Scott]

I'm surprised anyone who claims to know their onions would favour the taillevent wine list over tour d'argent?

sure, they tend behave like arses at tour, but the depth and range of mature wines, from great vintages, cannot be beaten. Burgundy is where they excel, and you have to be firm. Champagne and Bordeaux are focused too heavily on the stateside visitor, but great things and great values are also possible from the rhone, alsace, madiran etc.