2008 Gambero Rosso

[fortedei]

The usual suspects. What a joke. It is the same as the Michelin keeping Bocuse in. Notice the 19 given for the cantina at San Vicenzo. I guess Pierangelini allows the inspectors to order certain wines from the wine list that he has marked "not for sale" (or some such notation) and doesn't allow everyone to order.

Girone dei Golosi Mangiare

Tre Forchette 2008

Ecco i nomi dei venticinque chef premiati con le Tre Forchette sulla guida Ristoranti d'Italia del Gambero rosso 2008 .

Tre Gamberi 2008

96

Gambero Rosso

San Vincenzo (LI)

chef Fulvio Pierangelini

57 cucina - 19 cantina - 8 servizio

9 ambiente - 3 bonus

95

Vissani

Baschi (TR)

chef Gianfranco Vissani

56 cucina - 17 cantina - 10 servizio

10 ambiente - 2 bonus

94

Le Calandre

Rubano (PD)

chef Massimiliano Alajmo

56 cucina -18 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

93

Enoteca Pinchiorri

Firenze

chef Annie Feolde

52 cucina - 20 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 3 bonus

93

La Pergola de l'Hotel Rome Cavalieri Hilton

Roma

chef Heinz Beck

53 cucina - 19 cantina - 10 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

93

Dal Pescatore

Canneto sull'Oglio (MN)

chef Nadia Santini

52 cucina - 18 cantina - 10 servizio

10 ambiente - 3 bonus

92

Cracco Peck

Milano

chef Carlo Cracco

54 cucina - 19 cantina - 9 servizio

8 ambiente - 2 bonus

92

Don Alfonso 1890

Massa Lubrense (NA)

chef Alfonso Iaccarino

52 cucina -18 cantina - 9 servizio

10 ambiente - 3 bonus

92

La Torre del Saracino

Vico Equense (NA)

chef Gennaro Esposito

55 cucina - 18 cantina - 8 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

91

Osteria Francescana

Modena

chef Massimo Bottura

54 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

91

Laite

Sappada (BL)

chef Fabrizia Meroi

53 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 3 bonus

91

La Madonnina del Pescatore

Senigallia (AN)

chef Moreno Cedroni

54 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

91

Perbellini

Isola Rizza (VR)

chef Giancarlo Perbellini

53 cucina - 18 cantina - 9 servizio

8 ambiente - 3 bonus

90

Villa Crespi

Orta San Giulio (NO)

chef Antonino Cannavacciuolo

53 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 3 bonus

90

Antonello Colonna

Labìco (Roma)

chef Antonello Colonna

51 cucina - 18 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 3 bonus

90

Arquade de l'Hotel Villa del Quar

San Pietro in Cariano (VR)

chef Bruno Barbieri

52 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 3 bonus

90

Da Caino

Manciano (GR)

chef Valeria Piccini

53 cucina - 19 cantina - 8 servizio

8 ambiente - 2 bonus

90

Il Canto de l'Hotel Certosa di Maggiano

Siena

chef Paolo Lopriore

54 cucina - 16 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

90

Combal.zero

Rivoli (TO)

chef Davide Scabin

54 cucina - 16 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

90

Duomo

Ragusa

chef Ciccio Sultano

53 cucina - 18 cantina - 9 servizio

8 ambiente - 2 bonus

90

Guido

Bra (CN)

chef Ugo Alciati, Savino Mongelli

52 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio

10 ambiente - 2 bonus

90

Gualtiero Marchesi

Erbusco (BS)

chef Gualtiero Marchesi

54 cucina - 17 cantina - 8 servizio

10 ambiente - 1 bonus

90

Piazza Duomo

Alba (CN)

chef Enrico Crippa

54 cucina - 16 cantina - 9 servizio

8 ambiente - 3 bonus

90

St. Hubertus de l'Hotel Rosa Alpina

Badia/Abtei (BZ)

chef Norbert Niederkofler

52 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 3 bonus

90

Uliassi

Senigallia (AN)

chef Mauro Uliassi

54 cucina - 16 cantina - 8 servizio

9 ambiente - 3 bonus

Articoli Collegati

Ristoranti d'Italia del Gambero Rosso 2008

[fortedei]

Surprise surprise! The first sentence speaks of the predominant thoughts. This from L'Espresso. Pathetic.

"La 'nuova cucina' italiana' - ha detto Enzo Vizzari curatore della Guida - è una realtà vincente".

Ecco i magnifici tredici secondo la classifica dell'Espresso: 1)'Gambero Rosso', San Vincenzo (Li) 19.5/20 2)'Vissani', Baschi (Tr) 19.5/20 3)'Le calandre', Rubano (Pd) 19.5/20 4)'Enoteca Pinchiorri', Firenze 19/20 5)'Pergola Cavalieri Hilton', Roma 19/20 6)'La Francescana', Modena 19/20 7)'Dal Pescatore', Canneto sull Oglio (Mn) 18,5/20 8)'Combal.Zero', Rivoli (To) 18.5/20 9)'Cracco', Milano 18/20 10)'Miramonti l'Altro', Concesio (Bs) 18/20 11)'Perbellini', Isola Rizza (Vr) 18/20 12)'La Torre del Saracino', Vico Equense (Na) 18/20 13)'Duomo', Ragusa 18/20 A Davide Scabin di 'Combal.Zero', che sale da 17.5/20 a 18.5/20, va il premio Domini Villae Lanata per il 'Pranzo dell'anno'. Fanno il loro ingresso nell'empireo la 'Torre del saracino' e il Duomo.

Molte novità, con entrate e uscite, anche fra i 'due cappelli', cioé i locali con punteggio compreso fra 16,5 e 17,5: sono 48 (51 l anno scorso) e alle soglie dei 'tre cappelli', con 17,5 si trovano la Madonnina del Pescatore e Uliassi di Senigallia e Villa Crespi di Orta San Giulio. Sono 228 i locali con 'un cappello', cioé con un punteggio compreso fra 15 e 16 (246 l anno scorso). Sono in tutto 289 i locali con almeno 'un cappello' così suddivisi: 56 in Lombardia; 36 in Piemonte; 27 in Campania; 24 in Toscana; 20 in Emilia Romagna e Lazio; 18 in Veneto; 13 in Liguria; 10 nelle Marche; 9 in Sicilia. Spiccano fra le regioni la continua e marcata ascesa della Campania e la ripresa vistosa della crescita del Piemonte; segnano il passo la Lombardia, che pure resta nettamente la regione leader, la Toscana, l'Emilia Romagna e il Veneto.

[hathor]

Fortedei, just idle curiosity, and because you have such strong opinions, what would be your top ten restaurants?

And please, anyone else who has a list....pipe up.

OK, I'm not just idle and curious. I have one precious day off per week and I'm thinking about making pilgrimages to some of these temples of cuisine.

[Man]

Sorry Fortedei, what exactly is your point?

Ciao

m

[Bill Klapp]

Piazza Duomo is the only concensus "joke" on that list, as nearly as I can tell. I have not eaten at all of them, but I can assure you that there is nothing "funny" about Combal.zero, Villa Crespi or Guido, if you know the first thing about fine dining. And Guido had a rocky, uneven start a few years in its new location, and had to earn back the respect that the original Guido once had. And did it by pairing up Lidia's son Ugo with the chef of a predominantly seafood ristorante. Methinks that you need to get out more in Italia, fortedei...

[fortedei]

Piazza Duomo is the only concensus "joke" on that list, as nearly as I can tell.  I have not eaten at all of them, but I can assure you that there is nothing "funny" about Combal.zero, Villa Crespi or Guido, if you know the first thing about fine dining.  And Guido had a rocky, uneven start a few years in its new location, and had to earn back the respect that the original Guido once had.  And did it by pairing up Lidia's son Ugo with the chef of a predominantly seafood ristorante.  Methinks that you need to get out more in Italia, fortedei...

←

I do get out in Italia Bill; I live there. I've seen "the dining scene" over a 35 year period, up close and personal. Don't be so condescending; it doesn't flatter you.

[fortedei]

Fortedei, just idle curiosity, and because you have such strong opinions, what would be your top ten restaurants?

And please, anyone else who has a list....pipe up.

OK, I'm not just idle and curious. I have one precious day off per week and I'm thinking about making pilgrimages to some of these temples of cuisine.

←

Well, at the top of my list is Erba Luna

In all seriousness, go to Miramonte L'Alto in Concesio and then Vissani and tell me which has the better food, and which resturant you like best. My bet is that you'll like one and dislike the other. Go to Paolo e Barbara in San Remo and then to Madonnina in Senigallia and tell me which has the better food and which restaurant you like best. Tell me which chef, in those two restaurants, is the more skilled?

Go to La Pinetta in Marina di Bibbona and then go a little way along the coast to Gambero Rosso. Tell us which restaurant you think serves the better food, which restaurant has the better service and which restaurant you would rather eat in. Go to Amerigo in Savigno and then Da Caino and tell me which one has the more skilled preparations, the better food and the better service? Go to Cervere in Piemonte and then to Don Alfonso and do the same thing. I'm curious to hear what you think.

Best,

Fortedei

[SWISS_CHEF]

I'm not a star chaser and and I don't eat out very much, but I have been to Piazza Duomo in Alba several times in the last two years and I like it very much, but to be honest, I was very surprised to see it on the list.

[Bill Klapp]

Piazza Duomo is the only concensus "joke" on that list, as nearly as I can tell.  I have not eaten at all of them, but I can assure you that there is nothing "funny" about Combal.zero, Villa Crespi or Guido, if you know the first thing about fine dining.  And Guido had a rocky, uneven start a few years in its new location, and had to earn back the respect that the original Guido once had.  And did it by pairing up Lidia's son Ugo with the chef of a predominantly seafood ristorante.  Methinks that you need to get out more in Italia, fortedei...

←

I do get out in Italia Bill; I live there. I've seen "the dining scene" over a 35 year period, up close and personal. Don't be so condescending; it doesn't flatter you.

←

Alas, I have never lived for flattery around here. I am not here to defend all of GR's choices, but the beauty of the best Italian ristoranti, as well as European restaurants generally, in sharp contrast to American restaurants, is that they can evolve slowly and yet still maintain a high quality level over a very long time. Thus, many of those "usual suspects" have been concensus top ristoranti year after year. The corollary is that, given relatively high expectations of diners, it is more difficult for new ristoranti to break onto the scene and rise to the top of the charts. It is always exciting when that happens, but it doesn't happen often. For years, I have kept and updated a data base of Italian restaurant ratings which correlates all of the major Italian- and English-language guides, and the concensus chioces disappoint only when the chef quits, is sick or dies, or the ristorante is closed...

[SWISS_CHEF]

I think that getting voted number 1 in Italy is often a question of politics (especially with GR). I know for a fact this is true for winemakers.

I also think ratings have their place in many countries but in Italy there are so many great restaurants (and so much rampant corruption) that most Italians couldn't care less (or trust) who is declared to be number 1.

My experience is that most Italians do not make pilgrimages to fine restaurants, they prefer to visit the place where they are well known and can be sure of special service.

The food served to an unknown diner is not nearly as important as the plate served to an important long-time, regular customer. No restaurant guide can factor this in and it paves the way for quite mediocre restaurants to excel to astounding levels from time to time... for the right people.

[tupac17616]

Well, at the top of my list is Erba Luna

In all seriousness, go to Miramonte L'Alto in Concesio and then Vissani and tell me which has the better food, and which resturant you like best. My bet is that you'll like one and dislike the other. Go to Paolo e Barbara in San Remo and then to Madonnina in Senigallia and tell me which has the better food and which restaurant you like best. Tell me which chef, in those two restaurants, is the more skilled?

Go to La Pinetta in Marina di Bibbona and then go a little way along the coast to Gambero Rosso. Tell us which restaurant you think serves the better food, which restaurant has the better service and which restaurant you would rather eat in. Go to  Amerigo in Savigno and then Da Caino and tell me which one has the more skilled preparations, the better food and the better service? Go to Cervere in Piemonte and then to Don Alfonso and do the same thing. I'm curious to hear what you think.

Best,

Fortedei

Fortadei, since you seem to have such a grasp on how and why you find many of the above restaurants to be over-rated, I'm curious to get your thoughts on the following restaurants, the only ones from the list which I've been to at this point:

94

Le Calandre

Rubano (PD)

chef Massimiliano Alajmo

56 cucina -18 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

91

Osteria Francescana

Modena

chef Massimo Bottura

54 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

91

La Madonnina del Pescatore

Senigallia (AN)

chef Moreno Cedroni

54 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

90

Uliassi

Senigallia (AN)

chef Mauro Uliassi

54 cucina - 16 cantina - 8 servizio

9 ambiente - 3 bonus

Also, are there any restaurants on the list that you enjoy?

And if not, was your sole purpose in publishing this list here to say "What a terrible list of the 'best' restaurants in Italy"? Like eGullet user "Man" above, I'm just curious to understand a bit of your motivation, I suppose.

The food served to an unknown diner is not nearly as important as the plate served to an important long-time, regular customer.  No restaurant guide can factor this in and it paves the way for quite mediocre restaurants to excel to astounding levels from time to time... for the right people.

I could not agree more. But this is hardly a phenomenon unique to Italy, so I just don't see it as justification that Italian restaurant ratings/rankings are inherently different than those in any other country.

[fortedei]

Well, at the top of my list is Erba Luna

In all seriousness, go to Miramonte L'Alto in Concesio and then Vissani and tell me which has the better food, and which resturant you like best. My bet is that you'll like one and dislike the other. Go to Paolo e Barbara in San Remo and then to Madonnina in Senigallia and tell me which has the better food and which restaurant you like best. Tell me which chef, in those two restaurants, is the more skilled?

Go to La Pinetta in Marina di Bibbona and then go a little way along the coast to Gambero Rosso. Tell us which restaurant you think serves the better food, which restaurant has the better service and which restaurant you would rather eat in. Go to  Amerigo in Savigno and then Da Caino and tell me which one has the more skilled preparations, the better food and the better service? Go to Cervere in Piemonte and then to Don Alfonso and do the same thing. I'm curious to hear what you think.

Best,

Fortedei

Fortadei, since you seem to have such a grasp on how and why you find many of the above restaurants to be over-rated, I'm curious to get your thoughts on the following restaurants, the only ones from the list which I've been to at this point:

94

Le Calandre

Rubano (PD)

chef Massimiliano Alajmo

56 cucina -18 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

91

Osteria Francescana

Modena

chef Massimo Bottura

54 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

91

La Madonnina del Pescatore

Senigallia (AN)

chef Moreno Cedroni

54 cucina - 17 cantina - 9 servizio

9 ambiente - 2 bonus

90

Uliassi

Senigallia (AN)

chef Mauro Uliassi

54 cucina - 16 cantina - 8 servizio

9 ambiente - 3 bonus

Also, are there any restaurants on the list that you enjoy?

And if not, was your sole purpose in publishing this list here to say "What a terrible list of the 'best' restaurants in Italy"? Like eGullet user "Man" above, I'm just curious to understand a bit of your motivation, I suppose.

The food served to an unknown diner is not nearly as important as the plate served to an important long-time, regular customer.  No restaurant guide can factor this in and it paves the way for quite mediocre restaurants to excel to astounding levels from time to time... for the right people.

I could not agree more. But this is hardly a phenomenon unique to Italy, so I just don't see it as justification that Italian restaurant ratings/rankings are inherently different than those in any other country.

←

I've been to Madonnina and Uliassi. Other posts have indicated what I thought of them... not much. I don't particularly like to be served green bread.

[SWISS_CHEF]

The food served to an unknown diner is not nearly as important as the plate served to an important long-time, regular customer.  No restaurant guide can factor this in and it paves the way for quite mediocre restaurants to excel to astounding levels from time to time... for the right people.

I could not agree more. But this is hardly a phenomenon unique to Italy, so I just don't see it as justification that Italian restaurant ratings/rankings are inherently different than those in any other country.

←

There seems to be a very strong sense of family and community and the people really depend on each other here in Italy, more so than I have experienced in the US or even Switzerland. Clearly, I am stereotyping and this may not be at all true in the big cities.

edit: Also let me say, that I am not declaring the list as bogus. I couldn't possibly do that because Piazza Duomo is the only one I have eaten at.

Edited October 14, 2007 by SWISS_CHEF (log)

[tupac17616]

I've been to Madonnina and Uliassi. Other posts have indicated what I thought of them... not much. I don't particularly like to be served green bread.

Very helpful as always.

But...

Also, are there any restaurants on the list that you enjoy?

And if not, was your sole purpose in publishing this list here to say "What a terrible list of the 'best' restaurants in Italy"?  Like eGullet user "Man" above, I'm just curious to understand a bit of your motivation, I suppose.

[SWISS_CHEF]

I've been to Madonnina and Uliassi. Other posts have indicated what I thought of them... not much. I don't particularly like to be served green bread.

Very helpful as always.

But...

Also, are there any restaurants on the list that you enjoy?

And if not, was your sole purpose in publishing this list here to say "What a terrible list of the 'best' restaurants in Italy"?  Like eGullet user "Man" above, I'm just curious to understand a bit of your motivation, I suppose.

←

I don't want to answer for Fortedei but I think the insinuation is that there are others that are better or deserve it more.

Do you know the origins of GR? You might be surprised! GR is the food and wine commentary from the Manifesto news paper of the extreme left party in Italy. It is (in my, and many others opinion) steeped in politics. I can tell you with good authority that the wine makers that continually earn one, two and three Bicchieri are certainly not the finest wine makers in Italy. Many wine makers are sick-to-death of the whole GR/Slow Food political bullshit. Large numbers of winemakers that I respect greatly, swear open hatred of these two organizations and I can say that I have regularly tasted seriously inferior wines that continually earn Biccheri.

My advice is to take all this GR stuff with a grain of salt!

[hathor]

I've been to Madonnina and Uliassi. Other posts have indicated what I thought of them... not much. I don't particularly like to be served green bread.

Very helpful as always.

But...

Also, are there any restaurants on the list that you enjoy?

And if not, was your sole purpose in publishing this list here to say "What a terrible list of the 'best' restaurants in Italy"?  Like eGullet user "Man" above, I'm just curious to understand a bit of your motivation, I suppose.

←

I don't want to answer for Fortedei but I think the insinuation is that there are others that are better or deserve it more.

Do you know the origins of GR? You might be surprised! GR is the food and wine commentary from the Manifesto news paper of the extreme left party in Italy. It is (in my, and many others opinion) steeped in politics. I can tell you with good authority that the wine makers that continually earn one, two and three Bicchieri are certainly not the finest wine makers in Italy. Many wine makers are sick-to-death of the whole GR/Slow Food political bullshit. Large numbers of winemakers that I respect greatly, swear open hatred of these two organizations and I can say that I have regularly tasted seriously inferior wines that continually earn Biccheri.

My advice is to take all this GR stuff with a grain of salt!

←

Geez..count me as surprised. I've often wondered about the GR ratings, and I know about the Slow Food issues, but I really had no idea about the GR extreme left connection. And the COOP is run by Communists... god, this can be a confusing country!!

Foredei, Erba Luna is not at this level. We are striving for good food, comfortable surroundings, and really just finding our 'voice'.

I've been to Mondonnina, and liked it. I remember being awestruck at the intricacy of the food presentations, but honestly I can't remember the food. It was a strange time in life....

I've also been to La Pineta, and that was completely unremarkable.

I'd love to get to LeCalandre.

And, I appreciate your list. I'm sticking it up on my wall, next to the map.

[SWISS_CHEF]

Look what I found: http://www.gamberorosso.it/portaleEng/noi/

[Man]

Come, come, il Manifesto is an old story, now Bonilli (the boss of GR) more than a communist is a Krug drinking aesthete who justifies stratospheric prices in high end restaurants...

I find it preposterous to say that politics dictates the judgements in the guide, what do you think, that the inspectors go there and ask the chefs questions about their political inclinations? Or that the chefs show their membership cards, or that they make some secret sign of the underground communist organisation they belong to?

That said, the guide must be judged by how it itself judges the middling restaurants - point given or taken anybody will agree that Vissani or Pierangelini are good chefs, the much more difficult thing is to detect good cuisine in the grey zone.

[SWISS_CHEF]

Come, come, il Manifesto is an old story, now Bonilli (the boss of GR) more than a communist is a Krug drinking aesthete who justifies stratospheric prices in high end restaurants...

I find it preposterous to say that politics dictates the judgements in the guide, what do you think, that the inspectors go there and ask the chefs questions about their political inclinations? Or that the chefs show their membership cards, or that they make some secret sign of the underground communist organisation they belong to?

That said, the guide must be judged by how it itself judges the middling  restaurants - point given or taken anybody will agree that Vissani or Pierangelini are good chefs, the much more difficult thing is to detect good cuisine in the grey zone.

←

I draw my parallels from the wine world, with which I am quite familiar and there is nothing preposterous about it. It is something I have heard over and over.

Given what is at stake and the tremendous amount of corruption that exists in both the public and private sectors in Italy, it might be more preposterous to expect GR to be squeaky clean.

Edited October 15, 2007 by SWISS_CHEF (log)

[fortedei]

I've been to Madonnina and Uliassi. Other posts have indicated what I thought of them... not much. I don't particularly like to be served green bread.

Very helpful as always.

But...

Also, are there any restaurants on the list that you enjoy?

And if not, was your sole purpose in publishing this list here to say "What a terrible list of the 'best' restaurants in Italy"?  Like eGullet user "Man" above, I'm just curious to understand a bit of your motivation, I suppose.

←

I don't want to answer for Fortedei but I think the insinuation is that there are others that are better or deserve it more.

Do you know the origins of GR? You might be surprised! GR is the food and wine commentary from the Manifesto news paper of the extreme left party in Italy. It is (in my, and many others opinion) steeped in politics. I can tell you with good authority that the wine makers that continually earn one, two and three Bicchieri are certainly not the finest wine makers in Italy. Many wine makers are sick-to-death of the whole GR/Slow Food political bullshit. Large numbers of winemakers that I respect greatly, swear open hatred of these two organizations and I can say that I have regularly tasted seriously inferior wines that continually earn Biccheri.

My advice is to take all this GR stuff with a grain of salt!

←

Geez..count me as surprised. I've often wondered about the GR ratings, and I know about the Slow Food issues, but I really had no idea about the GR extreme left connection. And the COOP is run by Communists... god, this can be a confusing country!!

Foredei, Erba Luna is not at this level. We are striving for good food, comfortable surroundings, and really just finding our 'voice'.

I've been to Mondonnina, and liked it. I remember being awestruck at the intricacy of the food presentations, but honestly I can't remember the food. It was a strange time in life....

I've also been to La Pineta, and that was completely unremarkable.

I'd love to get to LeCalandre.

And, I appreciate your list. I'm sticking it up on my wall, next to the map.

←

Judith, I was kidding about Erba Luna. There was the smiley face (in type) after my comment. I hope to get to your place in the Spring and see what it's like.

I noted the comment about La Pineta. I think this is a perfect example of what pleases one person doesn't necessarily please another... and neither one, of course, is right or wrong because there is no right or wrong. It's a matter of taste.

[Man]

Come, come, il Manifesto is an old story, now Bonilli (the boss of GR) more than a communist is a Krug drinking aesthete who justifies stratospheric prices in high end restaurants...

I find it preposterous to say that politics dictates the judgements in the guide, what do you think, that the inspectors go there and ask the chefs questions about their political inclinations? Or that the chefs show their membership cards, or that they make some secret sign of the underground communist organisation they belong to?

That said, the guide must be judged by how it itself judges the middling  restaurants - point given or taken anybody will agree that Vissani or Pierangelini are good chefs, the much more difficult thing is to detect good cuisine in the grey zone.

←

I draw my parallels from the wine world, with which I am quite familiar and there is nothing preposterous about it. It is something I have heard over and over.

Given what is at stake and the tremendous amount of corruption that exists in both the public and private sectors in Italy, it might be more preposterous to expect GR to be squeaky clean.

←

Sorry Swiss Chef, I certainly did not mean to intimate that GR is 'squeaky clean', even though, given the way things go in Italy it might just be one of the least corrupt organisations around - which is not saying much, I agree

Bolasco, who is the editor of the guide, strikes me as a reasonably committed and serious guy; I believe he is honest, though of course one never knows.

My point was rather that any dodgy bit in the guide will probably be due not to straightforward party political affilitations, as I thought was being suggested, but rather to that complex and viscous network of friendships and enmities, jealousies and envies, feuds and paybacks that unfortunately characterises many sectors of society in Italy. Also, any less than transparent practice will probably concern a few top end, visible restaurants, those that make media noise. That's why I suggested to judge the guide (which I do not particularly recommend, by the way) by its competence in the reviews of the less famous establishements.

[Man]

Come, come, il Manifesto is an old story, now Bonilli (the boss of GR) more than a communist is a Krug drinking aesthete who justifies stratospheric prices in high end restaurants...

I find it preposterous to say that politics dictates the judgements in the guide, what do you think, that the inspectors go there and ask the chefs questions about their political inclinations? Or that the chefs show their membership cards, or that they make some secret sign of the underground communist organisation they belong to?

That said, the guide must be judged by how it itself judges the middling  restaurants - point given or taken anybody will agree that Vissani or Pierangelini are good chefs, the much more difficult thing is to detect good cuisine in the grey zone.

←

I draw my parallels from the wine world, with which I am quite familiar and there is nothing preposterous about it. It is something I have heard over and over.

Given what is at stake and the tremendous amount of corruption that exists in both the public and private sectors in Italy, it might be more preposterous to expect GR to be squeaky clean.

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Sorry Swiss Chef, I certainly did not mean to intimate that GR is 'squeaky clean', even though, given the way things go in Italy it might just be one of the least corrupt organisations around - which is not saying much, I agree

Bolasco, who is the editor of the guide, strikes me as a committed and serious guy; I believe he is honest, though of course one never knows.

My point was rather that any dodgy bit in the guide will probably be due not to straightforward party political affilitations, as I thought was being suggested, but rather to that complex and viscous network of friendships and enmities, jealousies and envies, feuds and paybacks that unfortunately characterises many sectors of society in Italy. Also, any less than transparent practice will probably concern a few top end, visible restaurants, those that make media noise. That's why I suggested to judge the guide (which I do not particularly recommend, by the way) by its competence in the reviews of the less famous establishements.

[Man]

obviously i can't use the 'edit' function - sorry!

[SWISS_CHEF]

Sorry Swiss Chef, I certainly did not mean to intimate that GR is 'squeaky clean', even though, given the way things go in Italy it might just be one of the least corrupt organisations around - which is not saying much, I agree

Bolasco, who is the editor of the guide, strikes me as a committed and serious guy; I believe he is honest, though of course one never knows.

My point was rather that any dodgy bit in the guide will probably be due not to straightforward party political affilitations, as I thought was being suggested, but rather to that complex and viscous network of friendships and enmities, jealousies and envies, feuds and paybacks that unfortunately characterises many sectors of society in Italy. Also, any less than transparent practice will probably concern a few top end, visible restaurants, those that make media noise. That's why I suggested to judge the guide (which I do not particularly recommend, by the way) by its competence in the reviews of the less famous establishements.

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Hi Man,

Point taken, perhaps all the usual 'network of friendships' has been translated to conveniently blame the Communists... There is a lot of rivalry here among groups like GR, Slowfood, Coldiretti and Paolo Massobrio, etc.. All things being equal, I have found Paolo's guide to be the most useful for both wine and interesting restaurants, but I have heard it maligned too.

[vmilor]

Fortedei, just idle curiosity, and because you have such strong opinions, what would be your top ten restaurants?

And please, anyone else who has a list....pipe up.

OK, I'm not just idle and curious. I have one precious day off per week and I'm thinking about making pilgrimages to some of these temples of cuisine.

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Well, at the top of my list is Erba Luna

In all seriousness, go to Miramonte L'Alto in Concesio and then Vissani and tell me which has the better food, and which resturant you like best. My bet is that you'll like one and dislike the other. Go to Paolo e Barbara in San Remo and then to Madonnina in Senigallia and tell me which has the better food and which restaurant you like best. Tell me which chef, in those two restaurants, is the more skilled?

Go to La Pinetta in Marina di Bibbona and then go a little way along the coast to Gambero Rosso. Tell us which restaurant you think serves the better food, which restaurant has the better service and which restaurant you would rather eat in. Go to Amerigo in Savigno and then Da Caino and tell me which one has the more skilled preparations, the better food and the better service? Go to Cervere in Piemonte and then to Don Alfonso and do the same thing. I'm curious to hear what you think.

Best,

Fortedei

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