Thorough cooking: If chicken, why not duck too?

[Spoonful]

If you order a Bresse chicken at a restaurant like Georges Blanc, in France, it will be served to you in a state that would be considered undercooked in America. I've never heard of anybody having a problem with it.

Poulet de Bresse never met Tyson...

[=Mark]

(As for BSE/Jacobs Kruzhowever's, I believe the problem is that the virus is in the cow to begin with, and therefore is dispersed throughout the muscle.  That's why it can be spread through steaks, etc.  Although I would think that thorough cooking would kill the virus, but I don't know.)

BSE/Jacobs Kruzhowever's are caused by a proto viral strand of DNA called a Prion. These prions appear to affect people who have some sort of genetic predisposition to them, causing normal DNA in the nervous system to start to convert to more prions. They behave like a self replicating catalyst, and are not actually considered alive.

Good News: These classes of disease only affect the rare individual that is genetically susceptible and has been exposed, otherwise the BSE/Jacobs Kruzhowever's outbreak in Europe and the UK would be much larger.

Bad news: Cooking does not affect the prions. You can cook infected meat until it is charcoal and it can still affect those who are susceptible.

[Bux]

Raw duck is pretty gross too, after all. And don't get me started on lightly seared on the outside, raw on the inside tuna (has this despicable fad died yet?)

Amazing!

[g.johnson]

Exactly, spqr.  There is a precise reason why game birds can be left to rot and chicken cannot.  That is the kind of answer I would like to get on this question.  I don't believe it's a matter of degree as I have never, ever heard a word against bloody duck for health reasons, whereas the chicken message has been rammed down our throats.

The USDA say:

As on any perishable meat, fish or poultry, bacteria can be found on raw or undercooked duck or goose. Bacteria multiply rapidly at temperatures between 40° and 140° F (out of refrigeration and before thorough cooking occurs). Freezing doesn't kill bacteria but they are destroyed by thorough cooking of any food to 160° F.

and

If fresh duck or goose has reached 160° F throughout, even though it may still be pink in the center, it should be safe. The pink color can be due to the cooking method or added ingredients. However, for tenderness and doneness, cook duck or goose to 180° F.

I think they’re saying there is a danger.

So I suspect that there is only a quantitative difference in the risk. And you're wrong.

[g.johnson]

BSE/Jacobs Kruzhowever's are caused by a proto viral strand of DNA called a Prion.  These prions appear to affect people who have some sort of genetic predisposition to them, causing normal DNA in the nervous system to start to convert to more prions.  They behave like a self replicating catalyst, and are not actually considered alive.

Good News:  These classes of disease only affect the rare individual that is genetically susceptible and has been exposed, otherwise the  BSE/Jacobs Kruzhowever's outbreak in Europe and the UK would be much larger.

Bad news:  Cooking does not affect the prions.  You can cook infected meat until it is charcoal and it can still affect those who are susceptible.

I don't know what you mean by 'proto viral strand' but a prion is a protein and chemically distinct from DNA. I beleive it acts by causing deformations in other proteins rather than DNA. You're correct that it's relatively resistant to heat.

Where did you hear that it only affected the susceptible?

Pedantic scientific bastard.

[Wilfrid]

And you're wrong. 

Unlike certain monuments to this site, that is a possibility I always contemplate. If so, I remain surprised that eating raw chicken is such a taboo, while rare duck is standard. Doesn't it suprise you at all?

[Stone]

BSE/Jacobs Kruzhowever's are caused by a proto viral strand of DNA called a Prion.  These prions appear to affect people who have some sort of genetic predisposition to them, causing normal DNA in the nervous system to start to convert to more prions.  They behave like a self replicating catalyst, and are not actually considered alive.

Good News:  These classes of disease only affect the rare individual that is genetically susceptible and has been exposed, otherwise the  BSE/Jacobs Kruzhowever's outbreak in Europe and the UK would be much larger.

Bad news:  Cooking does not affect the prions.  You can cook infected meat until it is charcoal and it can still affect those who are susceptible.

I don't know what you mean by 'proto viral strand' but a prion is a protein and chemically distinct from DNA. I beleive it acts by causing deformations in other proteins rather than DNA. You're correct that it's relatively resistant to heat.

Where did you hear that it only affected the susceptible?

Pedantic scientific bastard.

Wouldn't heat affect the BSE protein the same way it affects other proteins?

I saw a documentary on a tribe somewhere (don't recall where), the ate the brains of it's dead. Some time in the 50's, I think, they all developed JK. That suggests that the virus came to the tribe somehow, and was then spread by the consumption of the brains, as opposed to a genetic susceptability (unless, of course, if the whole tribe carried the JK gene).

[g.johnson]

I remain surprised that eating raw chicken is such a taboo, while rare duck is standard.  Doesn't it suprise you at all?

Yes. I think it’s probably a combination of several factors. Factory farming of chickens raises the risk of Salmonella infection and industrial processing increases risk of cross-contamination. So chicken is more risky that duck. Furthermore, the FDA and USDA are going to emphasize the risks of chicken because many more people eat chicken than duck.

I suspect that the dangers of food poisoning are pretty small, in any case. I’ve certainly eaten undercooked chicken on occasion and I eat runny eggs, home made mayo and medium rare burgers all the time. And I don’t abide by that nonsense of separate cutting boards for different foodstuffs. Yet on the two occasions (ever) that I thought I might have food poisoning, I couldn’t associate it with any of those factors.

[Wilfrid]

You wouldn't willingly eat bloody chicken, though, would you? I must say, I didn't think I was taking a smaller risk by eating very rare duck; I just didn't know the same risks existed. And I am fairly well informed. Perhaps we've all been brainwashed.

[=Mark]

It was an article I had read a couple years ago that was trying to determine why so few people were actually contracting the ailment given the wide exposure to the population over almost a decades time. They felt that a genetic sensitivity to the effects of the prions was a good possibility, but had no conclusive findings as of that time.

Here's an excerpt from a US Govt source on possible causes:

The causative agent of BSE as well as other TSE's is yet to be fully characterized. Three main theories on the nature of the agent have been proposed:

1. An unconventional virus.

2. A prion or abnormal partially-proteinase K-resistant protein, devoid of nucleic acid, capable of causing normal prion protein in the host to change and form more abnormal protein.

3. A virino or "incomplete" virus composed of naked nucleic acid protected by a host protein.

The BSE agent (1) is smaller than most viral particles and is highly resistant to heat, ultraviolet light, ionizing radiation, and common disinfectants that normally inactivate viruses or bacteria; (2) causes no detectable immune or inflammatory response in the host; and (3) has not been observed microscopically.

More info can be found at:

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/oa/bse/#human

[g.johnson]

You wouldn't willingly eat bloody chicken, though, would you?  I must say, I didn't think I was taking a smaller risk by eating very rare duck; I just didn't know the same risks existed.  And I am fairly well informed.  Perhaps we've all been brainwashed.

I wouldn't eat bloody chicken because I think the texture would be unpleasant. (And I'm sure I'm as brainwashed as the next man, too.)

[Lord Michael Lewis]

I saw Carpaccio of Chicken on the menu in a restaurant in, I think, Frankfurt. I didn't fancy it.

[FoodMan]

Ok I have not read ALL of the posts on this thread so I apologize if the following has already been mentioned.

I think the main difference between duck and chicken is the amount of processing and the quantity of birds processed. There is probably 100 chickens (since Americans eat much more chicken than duck) processed for every one duck which makes the probability of conatmination much higher. Processing chicken also usually involves cutting the bird into pieces (breast, thighs,...), deboning, skinning.... while a duck in 90% of the cases is sold whole with skin and bone which means that there is much less possibility of the contaminants reaching the flesh. In either case I always wash the bird before cooking (duck or chicken). I always cook the chicken well done and the duck medium.

One more thing. It IS acrime to buy a $17.99/lb or more fresh tuna and cook it beyond medium rare which is absolutely delicious. If you like the tuna well done buy canned it tastes pretty much the same. This is not a fad and it will not die out, the japanese have been eating sashimi for ages. If one does not like it he/she should not order it.

My 2 cents,

FM

[Wilfrid]

Edit to shut self up.

[John Whiting]

I saw a documentary on a tribe somewhere (don't recall where), the ate the brains of it's dead. Some time in the 50's, I think, they all developed JK.

It was the brains of their slain enemies, and it was only the women and children who ate them, the choice bits having been consumed by the adult males. It was the fact that only the women and children contracted JK which provided the first clue as to the probable cause.

[Stone]

If I may jump to the other side of this discussion -- if the danger with chickens is surface borne pathogens, why is it important that the meat be cooked all the way through? I would think that flash grilling the outside would kill the bacteria on the surface, leaving the meat rare on the inside. Not that anyone wants to eat rare chicken anyway.

Similar issue with pork. Although I now often eat pork at restaurants served medium, the standard line whilst growing up was that if your pork was cooked all the way through, you would die of trickynosis before you stand up from the plate. My dad still won't eat medium rare pork, even though I point out that the restaurant is obviously not poisoning every patron that orders the double-cut chops.

Perhaps it was all left over from when they didn't really know what it was about pork and chicken that was making people sick?

[g.johnson]

If I may jump to the other side of this discussion -- if the danger with chickens is surface borne pathogens, why is it important that the meat be cooked all the way through?  I would think that flash grilling the outside would kill the bacteria on the surface, leaving the meat rare on the inside.  Not that anyone wants to eat rare chicken anyway.

Similar issue with pork.  Although I now often eat pork at restaurants served medium, the standard line whilst growing up was that if your pork was cooked all the way through, you would die of trickynosis before you stand up from the plate.  My dad still won't eat medium rare pork, even though I point out that the restaurant is obviously not poisoning every patron that orders the double-cut chops.

Perhaps it was all left over from when they didn't really know what it was about pork and chicken that was making people sick?

Above, I tentatively tried to suggest that the bacteria might be forced into the nooks and crannys of the bird by the processing.

Trichinosis is very rare in farmed pigs -- it was only a problem when they were fed on rubbish. Besides, it's killed below 140F, when the meat is still rare.

Finally, first you call be a gay scientific bastard, and then you misspell the name of the hospital where I work. BellEvue. And it's not a psychiatric hospital (though it does have a psych ER).

[Gavin Jones]

What you want is (K) Creuzfeld-Jakob syndrome.

Since as I understand it is a statistical mechanical disease there is unikely to be a useful test for susceptibility.

though I understand only 40% or so of mice process the prion as far as the brain - or some such.

Kuru is the human form - transmitted by eating brains.

[spqr]

I don't know. I find it hard - though not impossible - to believe that there is such a huge apparent disconnect between basic food safety and culinary dogma: fully cook your chickens but eat your duck bloody. And how trendy to eat fish raw or rare, even though they may be loaded with nasty parasites. I am still in search of a good explanation. I believe that there is one out there somewhere.

I started this thread because yesterday a group of friends and I ate at a new place in Springfield (called "Soiree", contemporary European cuisine, whatever that is). I ordered the duck salad - small stack of mesclun with a port wine/vanilla vinaigrette, useless poached pear, seared infant duck breast and candied pecans, and the duck was cooked very rare. It was a touch too rare for my taste, but my bottom line is that the dish was very poorly designed and poorly executed (loads too sweet, not very flavorful, considering all the disparate elements, and the duck was stone cold when it arrived at table). After lunch, I was telling a colleague who wasn't able to attend about the meal, and when I described the duck salad he shuddered and said something to the effect that all poultry should be cooked through. I thought about that for a second, and I just didn't have an answer for why duck is different and not, somehow, considered to be "poultry" for the purposes of that particular culinary dictum. I came up blank, and that's where I still am I guess.

[ngatti]

Well, If I may, I think that the answer is contained within the various posts on this thread.

Glyn and dstone were correct that the bacteria is essentially a surface one. The problem is contamination (belaboring the obvious). If you eat an undercooked whole roast bird, then your chance of getting ill from a contaminated bird increase because of, If I may, the little nooks and crannies that the, not so obviously, bloody juices get into (mostly the dark meat where the bone structure helps this along). It makes no difference if the whole roast bird is Chicken (well it does due to gnarly processing technique), duck turkey, whatever.

Realize that most seared rare: (insert bird name here) is a breast of said beast. Aha!, surface contamination is killed in the searing process (check the post by 'Tissue" and others on rare chickenbreast in Japan. No bones to corrupt the surface and introduce crannies and nooks where contaminated juices can hide and start to multiply bacteria (such as the joint ends of thighs and drumsticks).

The processing of chicken in this country is so horrendoudly unsanitary that the shotgun approach to eating it (chicken ) rare is implemented. Consequently no one eats any chicken rare.

Just my thoughts. I will of course defer to you smug pedantic scientific bastards.

Nick

[KarenS]

O.K., right now I'm a little insulted. Where are the experts? Hmm... I have been cooking professionally for over 20 years. I have been a Chef for 10 years. I am a Pastry Chef. We currently go through around 800 eggs a day. I have cracked eggs every working day for the last 20 years. Yes, I have a great concern about salmonella. I used to work in a 22 story hotel. I figured out that I had made enough creme brulee to fill the place!

Go to a chicken "factory" farm. The chickens can barely breathe -they are frequently breathing chicken shit. The chickens are so close together that they can barely move. Every aspect of their lives has them enveloped in chicken waste. This is why they are MUCH bigger carriers of salmonella. Duck farms are on such a very small scale compared to chicken farms.

Eggs do carry salmonella. The Prof at UC Davis said that you are much more likely to be hit by a car. I am careful with eggs (and all poultry). I eat duck breast med rare; I get upset when it is overcooked and ruined into a chewy rubberry mass.

About ground beef. Processing plants are working at the highest speed ever. The cows are slaughtered along a conveyer belt with each person working on a different part. The workers wear boots; they are standing in deep cow slaughter. Very frequently the workers are migrant workers from Mexico and S. America. They are much less likely to complain about abusive conditions. Ground beef is made from all leftover beef. The intestines frequently rupture while being butchered. Fecal matter is all over the plant (and the workers are standing in it). The beef industry has such power in this country. The last recall (they are all ONLY voluntary) was 3 weeks after the beef was known as contaminated. The public schools get dumped most of the worse quality beef ( how is that for caring for the children).

Cows are being feed grain ( that their stomachs were not designed to process). Sick and unhealthy cows are being slaughtered, once again they are feed antibiotics. Dairy cows are given bovine growth hormone (very often you can be drinking puss along with your hormones and antibiotics). Sorry to be so graphic. In CA, you will find the milk labeled with who uses BHT and who does not. (this is used to increase milk production). I pay 50 cents more and buy organic milk.

I know, I do go on... I feel strongly about this!

[oraklet]

thanks a lot for your post, karen - makes me even more dedicated in my efforts to know what i'm actually consuming. i've switched to grounding meat at home, i use organic flour for bread, and we drink organic milk. i simply don't trust the typical industrial handling of food. and besides, too many of our political parties are dependant on the food industry.

things are apparently as bad in denmark - and most of europe, i guess, apart from sweden - as in usa.

as for eggs that are used raw, i've been told to only use fresh eggs, and put them in boiling water for 15 seconds before cracking them. this should minimalize any danger of salmonella or campylobacter.

cutting boards: i can't see why anybody would use only one...

[J Acord]

Hey guys,

Just thought I should add a microbiologists view to this thread.

Commercially raised chickens are usually given a large number of antibiotics which kill many of the bacteria in the chicken. The problem with this being that the presence of such bacteria inhibit the growth of pathogens such as salmonella spp.. However, there are very few antibiotics that have been approved for ducks or geese, and consequently they are not routinely used. This means (perversely) that ducks and geese are better able to withstand salmonella infection than chickens. Also, ducks or geese that are infected and must be treated with drugs must wait a number of days between when the drug was administered and when it is legal to slaughter the bird.

While, the argument isn't quite as clear cut as this (it also has to do with processing of the carcasses and also the fact that more chicken is consumed than duck (i.e. increasing the population density of chicken farms, and the risk of bacterial contamination of a flock)) I feel it is a point that has been missed out so far.

[britcook]

a new place in Springfield (called "Soiree", contemporary European cuisine, whatever that is)

Whatever contemporary European cuisine may be that duck salad would not be part of it, the only place you'd get stuff like that would be in an American restaurant, and I don't care what it calls its "cuisine"

[foodgeek]

Ive eaten a lot of soysauce chicken in Flushing. You know, the ones where the bones are practically bloody. And yet....I still live. :)