Thorough cooking: If chicken, why not duck too?

[spqr]

I understand why chicken must be thoroughly cooked, but why is duck frequently cooked and served nearly raw? What is it about duck that makes it immune to salmonella (or other nasty pathogens)?

I suppose one could ask the same for fish. Is there no health risk to eating raw fish?

Just curious.

[=Mark]

I'm not sure about duck, but there are health risks from eating rare or raw fish, mainly due to various parasites.

[Stone]

I assume it's the difference in taste and how they're processed. I think most of the salmonella risk from chickens comes from potential contamination at the large plants, which I'm sure someone else will describe better than I can. Also, undercooked chicken is kind of gross.

[spqr]

Every TV cooking show host, and many cookbooks, specify that one should be fanatical about cleaning hands and all exposed surfaces when handling raw chicken. But there are never similar injunctions when it comes to duck and other foods. I speculate that it can't be simply differences in taste or texture of the foods that account for this difference. Raw duck is pretty gross too, after all. And don't get me started on lightly seared on the outside, raw on the inside tuna (has this despicable fad died yet?)

Are our perceptions about health risks really so selective? Or are there good reasons underlying them? C'mon, who knows the answer? Give me facts, not opinion please.

[Stone]

Then I will turn back to processing. At large chicken plants, the dead birds are hung by their necks on an assembly line and dipped into large vats of hot water. This is meant to loosen their feathers, which are then beaten off by some type of whirlygig machine. The hot water baths, however, become soiled with fecal matter, etc., and are breeding grounds for nasty wee beasties, which then get on the bodies of the birds.

Some fun stuff. Funner. Duck, Duck, Goose

And seared tuna, thought annoyingly ubiquitous, is quite good, as is the raw preparation. An ex-co-worker of mine ordered tuna "medium well" at Picholine. The waiter said no.

[nightscotsman]

No answers here - sorry. However I have seen raw turkey consumed on Iron Chef. Looked really vile, but nobody died that I know of.

[ivan]

Duck:

Served properly, it's a confit.

Served rare, it's a conceit.

[spqr]

Then I will turn back to processing.

Okay, so how are ducks processed? Are they not defeathered, gutted and washed too? I've not seen them otherwise at my supermarket.

(Off topic, but the tuna thing is, I agree, annoyingly ubiquitous on restaurant menus. But it is also the quintessential fad food. Not good to eat, basically, but because it's so trendy everyone thinks it's marvelous. And, BTW, that waiter at Picholine was rude and wrong. The customer is entitled to have his food cooked to his preference.)

[Stone]

I added some links to my earlier post. Ducks are subject to salmonella. Could be that it's not talked about as much because ducks aren't nearly as prevalent. Perhaps because less ducks are processed, the procedures are safer/cleaner/different. Also, I think one of the sites mentions that duck meat, unlike chicken, is still a little pink when cooked to a safe temperature -- what we think is rare duck breast may be cooked as thoroughly as cooked chicken.

But I'm guessing. You can find a lot of facts here.

[spqr]

Quoting from of Dstone's links:

What Foodborne Organisms Are Associated With Duck & Goose?

As on any perishable meat, fish or poultry, bacteria can be found on raw or undercooked duck or goose. Bacteria multiply rapidly at temperatures between 40° and 140° F (out of refrigeration and before thorough cooking occurs). Freezing doesn't kill bacteria but they are destroyed by thorough cooking of any food to 160° F.

Salmonella is often associated with shell eggs and poultry. It may be found in the intestinal tracts of livestock, poultry, dogs, cats and other warm-blooded animals. This strain is only one of about 2,000 Salmonella bacteria. Freezing doesn't kill this microorganism but it is destroyed with thorough cooking of any food to 160° F.

Salmonella must be eaten to cause illness. Raw poultry must be handled carefully to prevent cross contamination. This can occur if raw duck, goose or their juices contact cooked food or foods that will be eaten raw such as salad. Salmonellosis is a foodborne illness characterized by stomach pain, diarrhea and nausea.

and

How to Handle Duck & Goose Safely.

FRESH DUCK OR GOOSE. Because the demand is not as high as for other poultry such as chicken or turkey, ducks and geese are usually kept in the frozen food cases at supermarkets. At holiday times, fresh duck and goose may be available.

Select them just before checking out at the register. Put each duck or goose in a disposable plastic bag (if available) to contain any leakage which could cross contaminate cooked foods or produce. Make the grocery your last stop before going home.

At home, refrigerate a duck or goose immediately (40° F) and use within 1 or 2 days, or freeze (0° F) in its original packaging. If kept frozen continuously, it will be safe indefinitely.

These quotes suggest to me that the risk of salmonella contamination is not essentially different between ducks and chickens (and geese, for that matter). So this begs the question: why are we paranoid about raw chicken cross-contamination and illness, and not about duck cross-contamination and illness?

[snowangel]

If anyone's stomach can handle it, I can describe how your average supermarket chicken is raised. It's grim; really grim. Enough that our "chicken-eating" vegetarian aide for Heidi decided that your average supermarket chicken is the most inhumanely-raised animal out there.

[KarenS]

Factory raised chicken has a much higher instance of salmonella. The chickens in chicken shit. They are feed grain with antibiotics in it because of the huge exposure to salmonella. Most duck farms are not so crowded- it is a much less consumed meat in the US.

You should be much more concerned about ground beef. It is FULL of animal waste (that is why it is standard procedure to cook it to medium).

I love seared tuna - I think that cooking it past medium rare is a crime. Well done tuna is like eating sawdust. Tuna is a deep water fish. They are much less likely to have parasites. Wild salmon, I would eat cooked through- it usually has parasites. Raw oysters and shrimp are pretty unsafe these days. Swordfish- no thanks! I have cleaned way too many, it is always full of parasites.

Free range chicken is much less likely to have salmonella because of their living conditions. It also won't be shot up with antibiotics (another reason why antibiotics are becoming less effective in the US- people are regularly consuming them).

I personally have no interest in eating conagra beef! (read Fast Food Nation).

[chefb]

You could probaly eat mid-rare chicken(very fresh) or turkey without getting ill. The problem is its not very appetizing. Chewy texture and bad color. Duck is like red meat in texture and color. I'm not affraid of eating pork mid-rare, if you listen to the FDA they say no food is safe to eat. Keeping kitchen surfaces clean is the best defense.

[ngatti]

Then I will turn back to processing.

Okay, so how are ducks processed? Are they not defeathered, gutted and washed too? I've not seen them otherwise at my supermarket.

(Off topic, but the tuna thing is, I agree, annoyingly ubiquitous on restaurant menus. But it is also the quintessential fad food. Not good to eat, basically, but because it's so trendy everyone thinks it's marvelous. And, BTW, that waiter at Picholine was rude and wrong. The customer is entitled to have his food cooked to his preference.)

I absolutely hate the taste of tuna cooked paste MR. I don't think it tastes good cooked at all, but that me. I wouldn't impose that on anyone else. Just talk about them

If you don't like it rare don't eat it that way. Picholine is wrong also. What a surpisingly arrogant attitude (Picholine's). It takes absolutely no effort to bring a piece of tuna up to Well Done. MW is pretty difficult temp to achieve and maintain from kitchen to table in a piece of tuna (the carry up'll murder you). It's the only explanation I can offer for such an attitude besides the dogmatic arrogance. Jeez, how is a simple request like sauce on the side or allergens handled.

Nick

[snowangel]

You should be much more concerned about ground beef. It is FULL of animal waste (that is why it is standard procedure to cook it to medium).

As I understand it, most ground beef is very lean beef ground with fat, which is how they can tell you what percentage the meat is to the fat. Is is the fat, the meat, or the method of processing that makes ground beef such a harbor for nasties?

[Fat Guy]

If you order a Bresse chicken at a restaurant like Georges Blanc, in France, it will be served to you in a state that would be considered undercooked in America. I've never heard of anybody having a problem with it.

[snowangel]

To date, there are only two things that I will not eat: undercooked chicken and runny egg-whites. Don't know why. I have eaten all sorts of things (bugs, odd animal parts, raw stuff, etc.) that most would consider "yuck," but these two put the gag reflex at my lips. This would have nothing to do with safety; perhaps I need a good sensory program (special ed specialist coming out in me?).

[torakris]

In Japan chicken sashimi (completely raw) is eaten. You usually have to go to a chicken restaurant (one that serves only chicken dishes) rather than a sushi bar.

Frequently in their cooking magazines I see recipes for seared chicken (usually the tenderloin) with the inside still completely raw, think seared tuna rare. I have never heard of anyone getting sick over here though.

In a former life as a US Army food inspector, I learned a lot about chickens and would never touch unless it was fully cooked. And I never buy prepackaged ground meat.

[tissue]

In Japan chicken sashimi  (completely raw) is eaten. You usually have to go to a chicken restaurant (one that serves only chicken dishes) rather than a sushi bar.

Frequently in their cooking magazines I see recipes for seared chicken (usually the tenderloin) with the inside still completely raw, think seared tuna rare. I have never heard of anyone getting sick over here though.

The yakitori places that I frequent serve chicken breast grilled med rare with some wasabi. I think it is quite tasty and I have never gotten sick...

I've never felt ill from eating anything (meat/fish) raw before. But who knows? My body might be crawling with parasites.

[Stone]

You should be much more concerned about ground beef. It is FULL of animal waste (that is why it is standard procedure to cook it to medium).

As I understand it, most ground beef is very lean beef ground with fat, which is how they can tell you what percentage the meat is to the fat. Is is the fat, the meat, or the method of processing that makes ground beef such a harbor for nasties?

The beef problem is more a problem with ground meat (and the usual cross-contamination problem). Bacteria gets on the surface of the cut of beef. However, when a steak or any non-ground cut is grilled, the surface temperature is high enough to kill the bacteria. Since the bacteria can't migrate into the center of the meat (unless it's a metastisizing cancer), the center can be rare. When the meat is ground, however, any bacteriaon the surface of the beef (or the machinery) is mixed throughout. Therefore, grilling a burger will kill any bacteria on the surface (like a steak), but won't get the stuff in the center unless it's cooked sufficiently throughout. That's why you hear about ecoli contamination in burgers, but rarely (if ever) for steaks.

(As for BSE/Jacobs Kruzhowever's, I believe the problem is that the virus is in the cow to begin with, and therefore is dispersed throughout the muscle. That's why it can be spread through steaks, etc. Although I would think that thorough cooking would kill the virus, but I don't know.)

[Wilfrid]

There must be a significant difference between duck and chicken, and I don't believe any of the answers on the thread so far. Any experts out there?

[Stone]

There must be a significant difference between duck and chicken, and I don't believe any of the answers on the thread so far.  Any experts out there?

Why? Why not?

[g.johnson]

I’m not an expert but I believe that most bacterial contaminants – Salmonella, E. Coli, etc. – live in the gut not within tissue. Problems occur when meat comes into contact with shit during processing – and I get the impression that that’s almost inevitable. If the bacteria remain on the surface of the meat there’s no problem since they’ll be killed during processing. As Dstone says, ground meat can be problematic because surface bacteria become embedded in the meat. But this doesn’t explain why chicken should be a particular problem. The only likely explanation I can think of is that bacteria can become lodged fairly deeply in the flesh if the carcass is sufficiently damaged. I’ve heard (from Food TV, I think) that the less industrial processing methods that are used with duck, reduce the possibility of contamination. Giannone confirm this indirectly by saying that their air drying method reduces cross-contamination.

Eggs are a different case – they become contaminated when the chicken’s ovaries are contaminated with Salmonella during life. I couldn’t find any information on how this occurs but the ovaries float around in the peritoneum alongside the guts so it’s possible that the bacteria simply migrate across the gut wall. Comments, Balic?

[spqr]

I'm with Wilfrid. So far the information posted here suggests that both chicken, ducks and geese are liable to be contaminated/contaminating and therefore pose a serious health risk if not fully cooked. One answer that has some potential is that there are differences in the ways that chicken are "processed" compared to ducks that leaves them much more apt to be contaminated with various microbe nasties. But I've seen no authoritative word on this yet [edit: except for g.johnson, who posted while I was composing]. And even this would not really account for the near universal dictum to cook chicken fully when at the same time to advocate for duck cooked rare (Asian habits notwithstanding). Where are the egullet food scientists when you need them?

[Wilfrid]

Exactly, spqr. There is a precise reason why game birds can be left to rot and chicken cannot. That is the kind of answer I would like to get on this question. I don't believe it's a matter of degree as I have never, ever heard a word against bloody duck for health reasons, whereas the chicken message has been rammed down our throats.