PID'ing a Rancilio 'Miss Silvia'

[Gary Marshall]

not fancy a nespresso machine then Tim?

as used by heston and sketch apparently.

[bainesy]

not fancy a nespresso machine then Tim? 

as used by heston and sketch apparently.

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<...deep breath...> There's a blood-strewn thread brewing somewhere in my mind about the fact that the VERY highest end restaurants fail with coffee. When there are outstanding artisan roasters in Britain, three-star joints still serve Illy, which may not be bad in Trieste, but is not going to be fresh (vacuum-sealed tins notwithstanding) months after roasting. It's not difficult to train your staff to be baristas, and there is a whole world of difference between a good shot pulled from a decent manual machine with good beans, and what is only ever likely to be an average shot pulled from a Nespresso-type auto, with stale beans. In fact, they don't even need an espresso machine: outstanding coffee using good beans and a good grinder with a cafetiere requires almost zero training/effort/outlay.

Anyway - thanks Tim for an entertaining pid installation. Do you know you can buy bottomless portafilters from the excellent Happydonkey for only c. £20? I warn you that since I got mine I've been progressively more dismayed by the poor extraction I achieve.

[adey73]

Oh you're right about shabby restaurant coffee.

There's a two and a half year old Rancilio Miss Silvia on ebay at the moment, I have convinced myself I don't need one yet, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...:MEWA:IT&ih=002

happy bidding

[Tim Hayward]

Just had a most instructive weekend.

I've been producing thin, bitter stuff since installing the PID and farting about around the 102C mark, messing with tamp and pack to no avail.

I started using a spreadsheet to record temps at the thermocouple throughout the pull...

Look. If you're going to laugh, I'm going to get all huffy and walk out

As long as the machine had heated for a while (I've had mine on a timer for ages so it wakes up an hour before I do then puts itself to bed, waking only to preheat for a mid morning double and the post lunch livener) temperature at the thermocouple would drop by around 10 degrees during the 22 second pull.

Then I worked out the difference between temperature and heat and started using my laser thermometer (stop bloody sniggering at the back!) to check the temperature at the brew face. Crucially, while the PID read out a drop from 102 to 92 near the heating element, the temp at the coffee surface remained a consistent 97. This, I guess, is the advantage of the brassy mass of the Silvia - it holds heat.

Anyhoo, I leaped on one of the Baristas at Borough Monmouth on Saturday and asked what the temp was at his brew face. He laughed at my geekiness, pointed me out to his friends, raised his eyebrows and made several humiliating asides before gazing straight into my eye and whispering "87, plus or minus 2" - such is the tragic, secretive cameraderie of the truly afflicted.

I immediately dropped my PID temp to 92 and, on first pull, produced the kind of sustained, self-supporting crema that a pornstar would describe as 'Serious Wood' - about 7mm deep, tiger-striped and wouldn't quit after a minute of waiting.

Now I'm messing with pack and tamp but, frankly, it's making much less difference - really just refining.

Up till now, I've been buying my stuff preground from Monmouth for consistency and freezing it in 100g baggies so it looks like I'm going to be asking Santa for Mazzer to further perfect my life.

Why on Earth didn't I start a cheaper habit - like crack

Edited October 28, 2007 by Tim Hayward (log)

[adey73]

Tim, you're changing my mind I might bid on the ebay number!

[Tim Hayward]

Oh you're right about shabby restaurant coffee.

There's a two and a half year old Rancilio Miss Silvia on ebay at the moment, I have convinced myself I don't need one yet, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...:MEWA:IT&ih=002

happy bidding

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If I wanted to sell mine, I'm not sure I'd admit to backflushing. It's supposed to be a really bad idea on single boiler machines causing all kinds of problems with the three-way valve.

[adey73]

understood.

[bainesy]

If I wanted to sell mine, I'm not sure I'd admit to backflushing. It's supposed to be a really bad idea on single boiler machines causing all kinds of problems with the three-way valve.

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Meh.

The strictures against backflushing are really to guard against idiots who would leave the pump running MUCH too long. For the few seconds required there's no difference between backflushing and pulling a shot (if you think about it, for the first few seconds of a shot the pump is effectively working against a solid blockage).

Randy Glass's Pages

Tim, I hadn't realised you were trying to work with (excellent) preground beans. Get the grinder (a Mazzer would be perfect, but there are other less obv choices) - it's the single most important part of the whole shebang.

[Tim Hayward]

If I wanted to sell mine, I'm not sure I'd admit to backflushing. It's supposed to be a really bad idea on single boiler machines causing all kinds of problems with the three-way valve.

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Meh.

The strictures against backflushing are really to guard against idiots who would leave the pump running MUCH too long. For the few seconds required there's no difference between backflushing and pulling a shot (if you think about it, for the first few seconds of a shot the pump is effectively working against a solid blockage).

Randy Glass's Pages

Point taken. God, that means I have a grubby head.... how gross. It's like publicly admitting you don't floss

Tim, I hadn't realised you were trying to work with (excellent) preground beans. Get the grinder (a Mazzer would be perfect, but there are other less obv choices) - it's the single most important part of the whole shebang.

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Believe it or not, there was a time back there, before the bug bit, when I was firmly convinced that the entire business was a geeky time sink. I said to myself, "I'm at Borough every week, I've got an independent roaster at the end of my street - I'm not going to be so much of a sap that I'm going to introduce another variable bit of kit to my already packed bench". So I devised a cunning plan involving ten small plastic freezer boxes, a supply of 100g ziplocs, an air pump, foil and a freezer and went through a kilo a fortnight.

I've obsessively read all the stuff on fresh grinding but I figured, at least while I was ironing out the other variables, that getting the beans consistently and professionally ground and roasted then plunging them into cryogenic suspension 20 mins later was a smart move.

Of course, now I have the temp right and I'm converting my portafilter into a pressure checker (Oh by the way, thanks you to whichever bastard tipped me off to 'Happy Donkey', thanks a whole bunch. Do you roll cans of Special brew into AA meetings for entertainment? Have you any idea what you've done to my life and marriage? I now own a bottomless portafilter, a Marzocco basket, a pressure gauge, a head brush and, now you've straightened me out on backflushing I'm going to have to go back for a blind basket and cleaner - Dance crack-boy, dance!!!)

So, yes, you're right, I obviously have to go that way next.

Which, of course, will involve buying a new machine, learning its ways, realising that I just have to upspec the burr grinders, reverse the polarity on the motor, have the hopper Teflon coated and sit weeping and rocking in the corner of the kitchen like the drained, pathetic husk of a man I've become.

So. I've accepted that I am powerless over this; I have admitted to you, my friends, the exact nature of my wrongs; I have made a fearless moral inventory and apologised to those whom my coffee obsession has hurt or merely bored witless. It remains only for me to place myself in the hands of a higher power...

So what do you recommend Bainesy? The Mazzer or the Rocky?

[bainesy]

You can't go better than the Mazzers really. I think the Rocky is a bit overrated, but that doesn't mean it's not good, and perfectly up to the job, it's just that there are alternatives. At the cheaper end there's the Iberital MC2 (at Happydonkey again - tell Scott at this rate he'll owe me commission) for a bargain £99, and the Gaggia MDF (lots of places, for about £150). Up a bit to the Macaps (which are an excellent Mazzer rival) e.g. the MC4 (dunno why both Iberital and Macap use the MC tag - I'm pretty sure there's no relation) for £229 at BellaBarista. After that (and I'm missing out lots) you're in the Mazzer territory, along with La Cimbali, Compak, and many others.

This IS a geeky obsession, and one I'm trying to downgrade from. I've just sold my one-group commercial machine, because that was plain crazy for pulling a couple of shots a day, but one thing I won't be getting rid of is my Compak K6 grinder, which I got for a pittance off ebay. And there's your other option - top-end grinders devalue quickly, but keep running (in general) for ever. The only thing they really need is regular minor cleaing, and every few years, a new set of burrs (Happydonkey again). For example, at the moment I can see on ebay four Mazzer Super Jollys (at varying amounts, and in fact these WILL probably reach decent closing prices), a Brugnetti, a brand new Compak, a brand new Bregant. And that's a slow week.

Then again, these commercial grinders do take up a lot of space - my grinder is twice the size of my little Gaggia Classic. Maybe I should have just stopped at recommending the Iberital.

Or there's the audiophile espresso equivalent - the Versalab. Shocking website.

[adey73]

Hell's teeth, that 2nd hand two year old Rancilio Miss Silver on ebay went for £170!

those babies retain cash as well as they do temperature!

[Tim Hayward]

You can't go better than the Mazzers really. I think the Rocky is a bit overrated, but that doesn't mean it's not good, and perfectly up to the job, it's just that there are alternatives. At the cheaper end there's the Iberital MC2 (at Happydonkey again - tell Scott at this rate he'll owe me commission) for a bargain £99, and the Gaggia MDF (lots of places, for about £150). Up a bit to the Macaps (which are an excellent Mazzer rival) e.g. the MC4 (dunno why both Iberital and Macap use the MC tag - I'm pretty sure there's no relation) for £229 at BellaBarista. After that (and I'm missing out lots) you're in the Mazzer territory, along with La Cimbali, Compak, and many others.

This IS a geeky obsession, and one I'm trying to downgrade from. I've just sold my one-group commercial machine, because that was plain crazy for pulling a couple of shots a day, but one thing I won't be getting rid of is my Compak K6 grinder, which I got for a pittance off ebay. And there's your other option - top-end grinders devalue quickly, but keep running (in general) for ever. The only thing they really need is regular minor cleaing, and every few years, a new set of burrs (Happydonkey again). For example, at the moment I can see on ebay four Mazzer Super Jollys (at varying amounts, and in fact these WILL probably reach decent closing prices), a Brugnetti, a brand new Compak, a brand new Bregant. And that's a slow week.

Then again, these commercial grinders do take up a lot of space - my grinder is twice the size of my little Gaggia Classic. Maybe I should have just stopped at recommending the Iberital.

Or there's the audiophile espresso equivalent - the Versalab. Shocking website.

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Thanks for that. I'll dive in. The Versalab is an astonishing thing but what do you make of their claim about old grounds in the grinding area? Seems sensible. Strikes me that that might be the a serious consideration when using kit designed for 500 cups a day for three. If that's an even faintly serious consideration then I'd be better off improving my freezing.

BTW, once you have your spanky new bottomless portafilter (is it only me that gets faintly aroused every time I type that?) how do you stop it spraying hot coffee all over the bench?

[bainesy]

Nah - those Versalab people talk rubbish I think. There certainly isn't a handful of old grinds in my grinder, because I sweep it out after use (the dosing chamber and the chute). That's not to say that a very small quantity of old grounds might persist, but II'm relaxed about that. Freezing beans is a whole area of academic study.

BTW, once you have your spanky new bottomless portafilter (is it only me that gets faintly aroused every time I type that?) how do you stop it spraying hot coffee all over the bench?

Errr...if you me, you don't (have only recently got mine, and not had much chance to experiment. However, if you were one of the members at Home Barista, you'd understand it's due to a number of variables, including grind, pressure, temperature, dose size and, perhaps preeminent - packing and tamping.

[slkinsey]

The Versalab is an astonishing thing but what do you make of their claim about old grounds in the grinding area?

This is a good reason to use a doserless grinder, and to keep it swept clean of old grinds to the greatest extent possible. Even so, there will usually be some old grinds in the grinding mechanism itself (Versalab mitigates this problem by dosing unground beans into the grinder). To mitigate this problem with my doserless Rocky, I simply discard the first bit of grinds that comes out of the chute in each grinding session. If I'm still getting 2% of old grinds, I cal live with that.

BTW, once you have your spanky new bottomless portafilter (is it only me that gets faintly aroused every time I type that?) how do you stop it spraying hot coffee all over the bench?

That shouldn't happen. Sounds like your coffee isn't ground nearly fine enough, because the coffee shouldn't be coming out fast enough to spray anywhere. It should look more or less like the picture on this page when the coffee is coming out.

[Tim Hayward]

OK, so talk me through 'Doserless'. Does that mean without the socking great cone thing on the top?

The squirting issue is fixed now. The basket that came with the Happy Donkey portafilter is deeper than my old Rancilio one but appears to have the holes drilled rougher. Basically, a fine spray was shooting out from a couple of misplaced holes.

I replaced it with the spare Marzocco basket which I'd ordered at the same time which immediately cured the spray but, I can hardly bring myself to type this, has tapering sides and an inside diameter about .5mm too small for my gorgeous, expensive custom-made tamper. AAAAAAAARGHHHHH!

I've now returned to my original Rancilio double basket and am getting a lovely, tiger-striped cone of crema.

It's starting to taste pretty good too

[slkinsey]

Dosers are designed for high-volume professional operations. What happens is that the grinder grinds a whole lot of coffee into a hopper right below the grinding mechanism. This hopper is the doser. Inside the doser is a mechanism that (supposedly) sweeps a predetermined amount of coffee grinds out of the hopper and into a chute every time a lever is pulled. The barista places the portafilter under the chute and clicks the lever once or twice (depending on whether it is a single or double shot) to dump the appropriate amount of ground coffee into the filter. I'm sure you've seen this in Italian bars.

As you may imagine, using a doser doesn't make any sense if you are grinding your coffee to order. First of all, you really don't need to "dose" your coffee grinds in pre-determined amounts. Second, it's much more difficult to keep the doser clean of old grinds. Third, if you're not filling the doser with grinds, you're not really using it the way it's intended to be used. Thus, the doserless grinder where the coffee goes from the grinding mechanism to the portafilter without passing through a doser.

If you take a look at this page you can see a Rancilio Rocky grinder both with and without a doser.

[Tim Hayward]

Brilliant. Now I've got it.

Now I need to find someone with a Rocky who's prepared to take off their hopper after a grind, disassemble the grinder blades and weigh any residual coffee that didn't drop down into the last shot.

The thing that makes sense about the versalab is that, if you measure the beans going in then the blades are, I assume, run until they're ground and any residue has been thrown clear by centrifugal force.

If there's a hopper full of fresh beans up above, there will, I'm guessing, always be something left around the burrs.

You're right that the doser is a bit pointless for my needs but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be clever to have a sort of cut-down funnel at the top so one could measure in just enough beans - a Versalab effect without the cost.

By the way, is one permitted to freeze beans? The advantage of a hopperless grinder would be that you didn't hold a stock of beans in the top of the grinder getting quietly cooked by the radiant heat from the nearby Miss Silvia.

[slkinsey]

You could aways keep your beans in a separate container, weigh out the precise amount you wanted, and drop just those beans into the grinder's bean -storage area. That would help to mitigate any possible small amount of ground beans in the grinder.Personally I can't be bothered.

[dougw]

I have the PID, but can't seem to get my shots as good as they should be.

I'd love some help on this...

[grahamR]

You think you have a coffee obsession? It could be much worse.