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Reflections on Ray's Pizza


Fat Guy

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Sam, my contention has been that it could be possible to bake terrific crust at 650 degrees in a stainless deck oven, but that pizzerias simply are not exploring that option. You responded by saying that 650 degrees is "a few hundred degrees F below what you can get in a wood- or coal-fired oven." It seemed to me that you were saying it's impossible to do good crust at 650 degrees because it's "several hundred degrees" below the needed temperatures. That sounded wrong to me based on everything I've heard about pizza oven temperatures, so I looked up some temperatures and what I found was that temperatures in the 700s are common. That didn't seem like "a few hundred degrees" to me. Now, you can nitpick those sources all you want (though I'd point out that all the same nits can be picked with your claims to know the temperatures being used at New York pizzerias), but it seems pretty clear that it's possible to bake great crust at 800 degrees -- or 150 degrees over 650 -- and highly likely that it's possible to do so in the 700s. So it's hard to imagine that a resourceful baker couldn't do some good work at 650 degrees, or even 680. Indeed, it's possible to bake better crust in a consumer-level oven at 500 degrees F than you can get at almost any stainless deck oven pizzeria in New York, which should make pretty clear that the issue is not so much lack of capacity but lack of trying. There may be good reasons for not trying: maybe there's not enough demand for the product that would result. But I wouldn't be so quick to write off 650-degree ovens as too cool.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Sam, my contention has been that it could be possible to bake terrific crust at 650 degrees in a stainless deck oven, but that pizzerias simply are not exploring that option. You responded by saying that 650 degrees is "a few hundred degrees F below what you can get in a wood- or coal-fired oven." It seemed to me that you were saying it's impossible to do good crust at 650 degrees because it's "several hundred degrees" below the needed temperatures.

That's not the full context of what I said. What I said was: "Even with a seriously tweaked oven maxed out at 650F, they're still a few hundred degrees F below what you can get in a wood- or coal-fired oven." It's quite clear that wood- and coal-fired ovens can, and regularly do achieve temperatures in the range of 850F to 900F. Maybe I need to check my basic mathematics, but I think I'm correct in saying that these temperatures are "a few hundred agrees" higher than 650F.

I would argue that the places making the best crusts, the outstanding crusts that are capable of attracting attention in and of themselves, are by and large baking at significantly higher temperatures than the 650F maximum obtainable with a maxed-out, top of the line, brand new stainless deck pizza oven. So, yea. I would argue that it's more or less impossible to get a superior crust at 650 degrees in a stainless deck oven. I've certainly never experienced one.

That sounded wrong to me based on everything I've heard about pizza oven temperatures, so I looked up some temperatures and what I found was that temperatures in the 700s are common.

You should do more reading on pizza baking temperatures, then. I think you'll find a remarkable amount of agreement among those with knowledge that the best pizza crusts are produced at high temperatures. Indeed, most of the various societies and certifying bodies tend to suggest around 800F, and sometimes more.

Again, I haven't argued that all wood- and coal-fired retained heat ovens are fired at those temperatures. I believe I said in my last post that plenty of "brick oven" places fire to lower temperatures and produce correspondingly less-exciting crusts. That said, even something like 750 degrees is significantly different from 650 degrees when it comes to making pizza. You seem to be proceeding on the premise that "in the 700s" means 700 degrees, whereas I'd suggest that we're talking about at least a hundred degree average difference. But let's assume that plenty of places with wood-fired ovens are baking at 700 degrees. Considering that plenty of places with wood-fired ovens are producing less-than-exciting crusts, I'm not sure what this tells us.

...t's hard to imagine that a resourceful baker couldn't do some good work at 650 degrees, or even 680. Indeed, it's possible to bake better crust in a consumer-level oven at 500 degrees F than you can get at almost any stainless deck oven pizzeria in New York, which should make pretty clear that the issue is not so much lack of capacity but lack of trying.

Certainly the quality of crusts baked in stainless deck pizza ovens could be better, and there are a lot of things that could be done to make them better. All I am suggesting is that, due to temperature limitations, there is a finite limit as to how good these crusts can be and there are certain effects that are not possible using a stainless deck pizza oven. These issues are further compounded by certain stylistic choices that go along with this kind of pizza (most prominently, the volume of toppings). Considering that 90% of American consumers of pizza are primarily focused on the toppings, it's not clear to me that there is a great deal to be gained for the operator of a stainless deck pizza oven in tweaking for a better crust. I think that Dom Demarco at Di Fara is achieving just about the peak of what is possible in terms of crust quality out of a stainless deck pizza oven while working within the topping-centric aesthetic, and it's clear that his method involves some significant tweaking.

Could most of the stainless deck oven pizza crusts be a lot better than they are, even within the topping-centric aesthetic? For sure. Turn up the temperature and bake the pizza on the oven floor. Stainless deck oven pizza crusts could be even better if the pizzaioli made the dough thinner and used half the amount of toppings -- not that I think this will ever happen. But, regardless, none of these crusts will be able to compete with the crust coming out of an 800F - 900F retained heat pizza oven by someone who knows what he's doing. I think that's simply impossible as a matter of physics.

So, my contention is that it's possible to make a terriffic pizza crust and a superior pizza crust at temperatures that are only available in retained heat ovens. Stainless deck ovens can aspire to very, very good.

Edited by slkinsey (log)

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Rumor has it that Angelo's, on Main St Flushing, near Jewel Ave, has been turning out some of the best steel deck pizza for 40 years. They have undergone about 3 or 4 renovations, (they started as a hole-in-the-wall for Queens College students) but I hear that they "fly under the radar" for having one of the best slice pizzas in NYC.

Anyone been there recently and have some thoughts?

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Sam, is it fair to summarize your position as being that it's simply impossible to make "a terrific pizza crust" or "a superior pizza crust" in a stainless deck oven? And if so, what would you say is the minimum oven temperature for "a terrific pizza crust" or "a superior pizza crust"?

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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This fork of the discussion came about because LPShanet said that "the defining characteristic of NY pizza is its crust" and, by implication, that NYC pizza is distinguished by having a great crust. I pointed out that most NYC steel deck pizza oven crusts suck.

LPShanet agreed that the "best crusts come from a really hot coal (or wood, or similar) oven" but suggested that "you can achieve a pretty good result in a standard Bari deck oven" by baking the pizza twice. I replied that I thought a good and even great slice can come from a stainless deck oven, but not a truly great crust -- primarily because steel deck ovens can't achieve a high enough temperature to create a "crisp and charred yet light and pliable" crust that is the pinnacle of pizza crustery.

This led to the current digression on oven temperatures.

I would say that it is not possible to make a truly great pizza crust using a standard stainless deck pizza oven, even with considerable tweaking. The primary limitation is temperature, but there may be other limitations. It's impossible to make any absolute pronouncements as to temperature, because styles differ. I would suggest that somewhere around 800F (could be as low as 750 for a certain style, and could go as high as 900 for others). Regardless, I think it's pretty clear that stainless deck ovens are at least a hundred degrees F away from being able to compete with what retained heat ovens are capable of producing in terms of crust quality. If someone invents a stainless deck oven capable of putting a crisp char on the bottom, fully cooking the crust and melting the top of a pizza in 120 seconds, that may change. But for sure that's not what most NYC pizzerie are using right now, and I have some doubts as to how many of these ovens are even capable of 650 (never mind the fact that practically none of them are set that high).

Hey, if someone has an example of a steel deck pizza oven crust that competes with Patsy's, Grimaldi's, Franny's, etc. on those criteria I'd like to try it. But generally one has to choose between soft, spongey and insipid on one hand or crisp, dry and tough on the other .

Edited by slkinsey (log)

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