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Not grokking my santoku


Fat Guy

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I'd suggest the 150mm honesuki as well - great for frenching a rack of lamb too.

I was debating whether to get that or the petty. Petty first, I think. I'm so excited ! :laugh:

I have the Hiromoto HC 150 petty, and I don't use it very much - it's too big for when I need a paring knife - instead, I use the Tojiro DP nakiri, which Korin doesn't seem to carry now. In the Japanese household, the nakiri is the primary knife.

If you buy whole chickens, the honesuki is a joy to use. I would suggest: 240 gyuto; nakiri; honesuki and petty. And a cheapo bread slicer.

Monterey Bay area

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The DP honesuki can double as a petty too!!! Very versatile knife. Pull the trigger Kathy on the 240 and the honesuki!!! :biggrin:

Steven, the 270mm DP would be a good/best gyuto choice under $100. There are a few others both SS and carbon but this would be your best bet as it's got the most heft to it at 11.5 ounces. The transition from your Wusthof would be eased by the beefier of the choices. I should note that one of the trademarks of Japanese blades is the lightweightness of them while still keeping that very thin edge. If you think you'd like to try a lighter knife then the Kanetsugu Pro-M or the Hiromoto HS would be the best bets with the performance nod going to the HC (carbon). Now if $150 is an option then without question the Hiromoto AS would be the head over heals winner as the best blade to get over any of these choices. That's up to you though. Despite it's heft, the DP still shouldn't be used around bones.

Edited by Octaveman (log)

My Photography: Bob Worthington Photography

 

My music: Coronado Big Band
 

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I just ordered the honesuki, since I don't have a boning knife. I'm quite excited!

I almost got the 10" gyuto, but my 8" Global chef's knife is almost as long and in pretty good shape. After seeing someone slice a whole slab of bacon with a 12" chef's in the Charcuterie thread, I was particularly jealous. I suppose I'm doomed to somewhat scraggly bacon.

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I don't like santokus at all...but it seems to be that the best way to use them differs from the best way to use a western style knife. With a western knife, (as you all know) a person keeps the tip of the knife almost in constant contact with the board, and goes into a slicing motion with that.

When I've tried to use santokus, I find that motion pretty impossible. I've had better luck actually picking up the knife from the board and making each slice a new one (if that makes sense). It's a similar motion, it's just that the knife is taken off the board and repositioned for the new cut.

That is exactly how a santoku's use differs from Euro chef & Japanese gyuto use.

On a side note for all, don't judge Japanese knives by santokus alone. Not only are they the least used knives in Japan they do nothing really well. Also, 99% of santokus sold in the US are not Japanese at all and are Euro made from thick stock weak in the knees steel. They just can't compare to their Japanese counterparts on any level besides overall shape.

--Dave--

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I just ordered the honesuki, since I don't have a boning knife.  I'm quite excited!

The knife arrived yesterday, and I used it last night to break down two ducks.

The knife is sharp, feels good in my hand, and it was much easier to get the skin and fat off than with my chef's knife. One thing I noticed, however, is that the tip of the blade was less sharp then the middle and base, so it was hard to maneuver around bone in the really tight spots. I also need to use a bit more force at the start of cuts to get past the tip.

Did I just get a dull tip, scrape too much on the bone early on, or am I missing something?

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I just ordered the honesuki, since I don't have a boning knife.  I'm quite excited!

The knife arrived yesterday, and I used it last night to break down two ducks.

The knife is sharp, feels good in my hand, and it was much easier to get the skin and fat off than with my chef's knife. One thing I noticed, however, is that the tip of the blade was less sharp then the middle and base, so it was hard to maneuver around bone in the really tight spots. I also need to use a bit more force at the start of cuts to get past the tip.

Did I just get a dull tip, scrape too much on the bone early on, or am I missing something?

Who knows if the tip on that particular knife was more dull than usual... Nearly every new knife needs to be sharpened correctly when you get it.

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I agree on the Santoku. I bought a 7" for my wife, a Henckel, like my chef's knives. I find the problem to be less the shape of the knife and most a problem of the size of the knife. I am used to my 10" (sometimes I use a 12") and even my 8" seems small by comparison. As such, 7" is a real stretch, especially when you are used to having the largest part closest to the grip. To use a basketball analogy, for me it's a "tweener". It is not large enough to use as I could use my chef's knife, but not small enough or delicate enough to do the work of my other knives (paring knife and boning knife, in particular. Once in a while I will use it to chop some herbs, but even then I using more of a rocking motion than the motion I use with a chef's knife.

At some point, I would like to add a Japanese knife to my collection, but definitely a chef's knife.

"If the divine creator has taken pains to give us delicious and exquisite things to eat, the least we can do is prepare them well and serve them with ceremony."

~ Fernand Point

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You got the Tojiro DP? You probably just got a dull tip. The one thing with Japanese knives is that they generally do not come screaming sharp out of the box (OOTB). This happens all the way up and down the price spectrum unfortunately. This isn;'t to say they are dull, just not as sharp as they could be. Matter of fact, most people feel their knife is super sharp OOTB when in reality it could get a LOT sharper. This kind of blows people away to think about the potential.

Basically, their reasoning is that the new owner will put his own edge on the knife to make it his/hers. Some knives of the same brand are sharper than others as I've heard some people say WOW THIS IS SHARP and others say WOW THIS EDGE SUCKS. Also there are some brands spend a bit more time on the edge than others too it just depends on who has a history of making the edges super sharp. But with a touch up on the stones, everything will be good.

My Photography: Bob Worthington Photography

 

My music: Coronado Big Band
 

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Well, depending on what knife you get it may only come one way.  What knife are you planning on buying?

I was looking at the Tojiro-DP Gyutou and the Masamoto VG-10 Gyutou, but I just started looking. Both are double edged, but I was just curious the reason for this over a chisel grind.
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All western style Japanese knives are double beveled (not edged). Thats what makes them western style. Only traditional Japanese knives are single beveled or chisel ground. You can get them custom made to be one way or the other if you'd like but really there's not much point to it unless you have a lot of disposable income. The chisel grinds purpose is to get super sharp to do detailed cuts required by Japanese food. It was developed for this purpose and this purpose only. There are 100's of styles of Japanese knives, all single beveled and all for a specific purpose. It boggles the mind. Most western styled Japanese knives come with a 70/30 or 80/20 grind to closely mimic this traditionalism and built into these double beveled blades. While different from a standard 50/50 grind there is very little to no noticable difference in actual usage. I mean, the thickness of the blade behind the edge is about 1mm so chances are you won't be able to tell the difference between a 70/30 grind or 50/50 grind. We're talking a very minute difference. Sharpening it will also not make a big difference. You can either keep it at 70/30 or change it to 50/50...it's your knife.

Hope this helped clarify a bit.

My Photography: Bob Worthington Photography

 

My music: Coronado Big Band
 

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Hope this helped clarify a bit.

This explains a lot, thank you. For some reason I imagined the single bevel was for pushing food off as you cut, and keeping the food you're cutting from straight, but I didn't take into account how thin a knife is.
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Yes, that is a common misconception and one that I had too but it's actually the opposite for many traditional knives. The beveled side is what is layed against the food and the flat side is the side that the slice falls from. A right handed Yanagiba for example has the bevel on the right side as you hold it but most cuts for sashimi are made so the slice falls to the left...the flat side. You can certainly use a single beveled knife for slicing with the slice falling to the right or beveled side. I know many people that use a Yanagiba as a slicer to slice roasts, chicken, turkey, etc. Also when you want super thin slices like chicken/beef for Chinese food. Another specialized use for an already specialized knife.

My Photography: Bob Worthington Photography

 

My music: Coronado Big Band
 

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Thanks for the explanation Bob.

I just got my Torjiro DPs and I have to say the fit and finish are better than anticipated. Beautiful knives and all shaved hair off my hand OOTB.

The honesuki appears to be single beveled or chisel ground and on the Korin site it is listed as double edged so now I understand. I would have thought that a boning knife like the honesuki would have been double beveled. I would think that a single beveled knife would be more delicate and susectable to chips from hard items. I have a chicken to cut up tonight so the honesuki will get some use today.

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Cool, glad you like your knives so far. The Honesuki is damn near single beveled, more like 80/20 or 90/10 but it is double beveled in the true sense of the word. It clearly is not a single beveled knife like all traditional Japanese knives are. Look at a pic of a deba or yanagiba or usuba. They all have chisel grinds. THAT's a single beveled knife and very different from any western style. Let use know what you think too. It took me very liitle time to get used to it and it's stiffness but it's a great knife. I actually use a deba for my chicken work and like it better than a honesuki but that's just me.

My Photography: Bob Worthington Photography

 

My music: Coronado Big Band
 

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I thought I notice a very slight bevel on the honesuki's back side but wasn't sure if was a true bevel. I would say this is a 90/10 it's so slight. It did a great job of cutting up a chicken. Very clean cuts through the joints and sliced through the flesh like a razor. Not sure how to go about sharpening that back side when the time comes.

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I received a Shun santoku from a good friend for our wedding, and I must say I'm almost afraid to use it, because it's so sharp I don't want to dull it.

I need to take a class on honing and maintaining knife edges. A chef friend who had a Shun told me once he wasn't skilled at keeping it razor-sharp.

But what a knife. I did break it out of its case for tomatoes last night.

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I received a Shun santoku from a good friend for our wedding, and I must say I'm almost afraid to use it, because it's so sharp I don't want to dull it.

I need to take a class on honing and maintaining knife edges. A chef friend who had a Shun told me once he wasn't skilled at keeping it razor-sharp.

But what a knife. I did break it out of its case for tomatoes last night.

It undoubtedly isn't that sharp. Just learn to use some water stones and you'll be all set. The Korin knife sharpening video is a good place to start.

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It did a great job of cutting up a chicken.  Very clean cuts through the joints and sliced through the flesh like a razor.  Not sure how to go about sharpening that back side when the time comes.

Yep, sounds like you like it. It can tackle rib bones too. It would be very tough to keep it at 90/10 but you can easily maintain it at a lesser degree. Use the penny trick to establish a good angle on both sides. Lay 2 pennies on the stone and lay the right side down with the spines edge on top of them. That's the angle for the right/front side. Now lay the spine on the left or back side except use 3 pennies instead of two. That's the angle to sharpen the left/back side. You will have a secondary bevel of about 3-4mm wide going along the front edge and a bevel of about 1-2mm going along the back-side edge. Same basic idea as the example on the right. Piece of cake. The more you sharpen the easier it will become.

gallery_22252_4789_2445.jpg

Cheers,

Bob

My Photography: Bob Worthington Photography

 

My music: Coronado Big Band
 

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They are not to be used forcibly straight down. They are meant to be used in a slicing motion.
Just like a Ginsu Miracle Blade? :biggrin:

I bought a Hiromoto carbon-steel gyuto recently and have been experimenting with sharpening techniques. Out of the box it came with about a 70/30 bevel, and I wanted to try and maintain that. I picked up a 1000 grit waterstone to practice with on some old knives for when the time comes, but the Hiro hasn't needed anything like that grit yet...instead I've been adapting the technique I use to hone it on my Spyderco Sharpmaker.

You probably know the Sharpmaker is a ceramic-rod system that can hold the rods at either 30 or 40 degrees (total angle, so each rod is 15 or 20 d from vertical). For the asymmetrically bevelled Hiro I put my fine rods in the 30 degree position, and run the larger, right-side bevel down the rod normally, with the blade vertical. For the back side I tilt the blade halfway between vertical and flat against the rod....I figure this gives me an 8 degree bevel on that side, and a more-or-less 70/30 bevel with 23d total included angle..

It's been working great! First time I did it the knife came out noticeably sharper than new. Then I bought some of the Ultrafine rods Spyderco sells as an upgrade for the Sharpmaker. They arrived the other day - they don't feel abrasive at all, almost glassy. "What and edge these'll make!" I thought. But no....I honed the knife with the ultrafine rods before cutting up a few lbs of veggies for a curry yesterday and it was noticeably duller.

Just before finishing, frustrated, I decided to try again. This time I paid closer attention to my angle on the back side and presto! the edge became razor sharp again, practically falling through ripe tomatoes. I realized that in my previous effort, while minding my vertical swipe on the front bevel I had been inattentive on the back side. The back bevel is so tiny I'd considered it "unimportant," and been a little sloppy with my honing angle - but with hindsight precision on the back bevel is probably just as important to the final edge.

By the way I've used a bunch of santukos including the highly rated MAC SK65 and have to agree they're not "all that." Now that I have one I much prefer the longer gyuto - in fact I'm kind of wishing I'd gone 270mm instead of 240.

- MT

---------------

Matt T

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Thanks. This topic hit me at the right time. I have been considering trying a Japanese knife for more than a year. I have been using two Henckels: a 20 year old chef and a 50 + year old carbon steel French chef. Both 8 " and I have wanted to go to a 10", so I just ordered a 270 Tojiro-DP Gyutou.

What do I need to use for sharpening this knife? Do I need to go to stones or can I use my Spyderco system?

Ah! Just saw Matt_T's modified Spyderco technique, so I'll try that first.

Edited by Richard Kilgore (log)
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I received a Shun santoku from a good friend for our wedding, and I must say I'm almost afraid to use it, because it's so sharp I don't want to dull it.

I need to take a class on honing and maintaining knife edges. A chef friend who had a Shun told me once he wasn't skilled at keeping it razor-sharp.

But what a knife. I did break it out of its case for tomatoes last night.

It undoubtedly isn't that sharp. Just learn to use some water stones and you'll be all set. The Korin knife sharpening video is a good place to start.

I will, but I don't know what you mean: "It undoubtedly isn't that sharp." It's quite sharp.

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I received a Shun santoku from a good friend for our wedding, and I must say I'm almost afraid to use it, because it's so sharp I don't want to dull it.

I need to take a class on honing and maintaining knife edges. A chef friend who had a Shun told me once he wasn't skilled at keeping it razor-sharp.

But what a knife. I did break it out of its case for tomatoes last night.

It undoubtedly isn't that sharp. Just learn to use some water stones and you'll be all set. The Korin knife sharpening video is a good place to start.

I will, but I don't know what you mean: "It undoubtedly isn't that sharp." It's quite sharp.

It's got the factory edge on it - there's just no way Shun is putting as sharp an edge on that blade as it can take.

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