Asian Markets

[Jamie Lee]

I went to my first asian supermarket last week... and it was a great experience. Not only did I get to re-live that sense of adventure I loved while living in Europe years ago, it was only 15 miles from my living quarters! (Cheap Travel!) (There's something to be said for wandering a market with limited foreign language skills - its a eye-opening, fun, mind-blowing guess-fest!)

Of course, for you in the know, I was also blown away by the prices, ingredients and selection. Examples:

Limes at supermarket = $0.50 each - limes at asian market (AM) 7 for $0.98

Shallots at supermarket, 1 for $2.50(!!!!), at AM, 1lb. for $0.55

Basil at supermarket - small container for $2.29, true thai basil (big bunch) at AM, $0.68

I don't have specifics, but all sauces - soya, fish, oyster, chili paste, etc. were all incrediblely less expensive, while being higher quality.

I didn't buy fish or shellfish, but I know the 1-1/2 # of manilla clams I bought at the supermarket would have been cheaper, tastier, and I would have gotten to select them myself. And where in Safeway could I have found such a beautiful selection of whole fish? (When was the last time you saw a whole snapper in Safeway or Albertson's?) What run-of-the-mill supermarkets have live lobster you pick straight from the tank?

Now I know Whole Foods can potentially compete in quality, what can they compete in price?

And then it struck me.... how can the asian markets compete in this way? I'm now worried that one must sacrifice all "locally grown, sustainable" goals for cheaper prices. How else can the AMs do it? Are they importing all their goods from asian countries, increasing the dreaded "carbon footprint" by shipping goods from thousand miles away, relying on workers making only pennies on the dollar to our local growers?

Are we committing "eco-sin" by patronizing asian/hispanic markets?

ETA: Spelling errors

Edited July 22, 2007 by Jamie Lee (log)

[Jamie Lee]

Yikes! Given the number of views and the lack of reponses, I think I have offended.

I should have kept to the question... how can regional/asian/hispanic markets sell items so much more inexpensively than chain markets?

[Shel_B]

And then it struck me.... how can the asian markets compete in this way?  I'm now worried that one must sacrifice all "locally grown, sustainable" goals for cheaper prices.  How else can the AMs do it?  Are they importing all their goods from asian countries, increasing the dreaded "carbon footprint" by shipping goods from thousand miles away, relying on workers making only pennies on the dollar to our local growers?

Are we committing "eco-sin" by patronizing asian/hispanic markets?

←

IMO, yes. I still shop at some "Asian" markets, but only for specific products. And Whole Fods isn't always the best choice either. The last time I checked, al fair number of their frozen and canned veggies were from China.

Shel

[nonblonde007]

I honestly don't know how they do it, would love to find out though. I, like you, enjoy going to those places very much, it's like stepping into another country and culture. When I lived near one, I did a great deal of my shopping there, without reservations. While I occasionally went to whole foods for the organic items that couldn't be gotten at my local grocer, the prices were a little out of my range for average things. The money I spent in the asian markets still stayed in my community and was redistrbuted there as well. Nothing replaces the stops at roadside veggi stands and small butcher shops for fresh home grown items either. I think that most people like myself, have a variety of preferences for shopping and I don't see any harm in visiting an asian market to take advantage of not only the prices but vast amounts of choices and goodies. These are the things that make this country so great, enjoy them.

[Fat Guy]

The big Asian supermarkets get much of their produce from the US and Mexico, just like Western markets. There are huge farms in California that grow all those Asian vegetables. There are plenty of domestic sources of rice, of course. The meats are usually local and the fish comes out of the global distribution system like most fish sold at all types of markets.

There are several reasons why Asian supermarkets offer the prices they offer. The pricing structure of a supermarket involves several complex calculations. Not all items are sold at a significant profit, and some are loss leaders. At Western supermarkets, items like milk and eggs are amazingly cheap. Other items have to be marked up more to compensate. The traditional formula is that you sell 1/3 of your products at a loss, 1/3 at break-even, and 1/3 at a markup that's enough to offset and exceed the losses you take. Then there's the fact that Asian markets do incredible volume on produce. If mainstream Americans wanted to buy zillions of bunches of bok choy, mainstream supermarkets would probably stock bok choy and sell it cheaply. Asian supermarkets tend to have very limited customer service, so they save on labor. Sometimes there are real estate savings, as well as savings brought about by serving a larger area (because there are fewer such markets per square mile). While it does appear that there are a million sauces and such, I'm pretty sure the reality is that Asian supermarkets stock far fewer items overall than Western supermarkets -- this allows them to take some of the economics more in the Costco direction. It's a lot of little things, and when you add it all up you get significant savings.

[Jamie Lee]

FG:

I was hoping you'd chime in, since I respect your knowledge and opinion.

It's still hard to understand why a western grocery chain could/would sell a substandard lime at $0.50 each, while I can buy one (with better zest and way more juice) at an asian market for +/- $0.17 each.

I'd still like to hear other opinions, impressions, ideas.

Thanks all!

J. <-- Still probably heading to local asian market today for veggies and fish!

[Dianne]

I, for one, will continue to shop at my local Asian markets. If I am going to buy coconut milk from Thailand I might as well get it at the good price there. It isn't local no matter where I buy it.

I find citrus prices at Asian markets as you have mentioned , Jamie Lee. But they are equally good at my local Indian markets and Middle Eastern markets.I wonder if the demands of the ethnic communities they are providing for also influences the price. And here in Canada, citrus isn't available from local sources either.

I do like to buy local when I can.

[Jamie Lee]

Dianne,

You bring up a very good point... the majority of canned/packaged goods that I was attracted to were from Thailand or other Asian countries... since it's already imported, what can be the harm (to "carbon footprint" or bottom-line $$ to the producers) in buying from a local Asian market?

The added benefit, of course, is that my local supermarkets carry only one variety (albeit a good one) of coconut milk, but since my trip to my local Asian market, I now have three brands to try!

Shop on!

[eskay]

I live near several ethnic markets and have fallen in love with them, even though I know I haven't taken advantage of them as near as much as I should. One thing though: I find that produce I buy from the ethnic markets or smaller stores doesn't last very long, which for me is an issue. So unless I have a use for something the same day or the next, or it's something I can't get elsewhere, I'll stick to the farmer's market for my produce. Of course as was mentioned, you can't get citrus fruits etc that are grown in Canada, but they seem to keep pretty well anyway, so it's less of an problem.

[Matt_T]

My wife is of Chinese descent and so we've been shopping Asian markets in the San Francisco and Sacramento areas for years. You can find great deals but don't expect to find a lot of sustainably grown or organic foodstuffs.

Part of the difference in price compared to Western markets I think derives from what culturally is considered a staple, and what is exotic. How often do most white American home cooks buy a lime? For most it's an exotic, associated more with cocktails than cooking. 50 cents doesn't seem like a lot to these customers, so it's a chance for the market to score some markup (not saying there's anything wrong with profit). However in Southeast Asian cuisine it's a basic ingredient in common sauces and dishes....Asian customers who are going to buy limes a dozen at a time are going to walk away if they see 50 cents each (after laughing).

Fresh produce in general is considered more of a staple good, I think. If my wife and her family are any indication, fresh vegetables bought from local market are the main course at most meals, supplemented by rice and maybe a little meat. A lot of white Americans have the "meat and potatoes" mentality, and were raised in northern climes where vegetable were usually canned or frozen....fresh veggies are more of a "luxury/health food" item for these customers and so the market that caters to them can charge a bit more.

- MT

Edited July 22, 2007 by Matt_T (log)

[Matt_T]

continued.....

One area I steer clear of in the Asian markets is the seafood section. The live rockfish that are popular at markets near me are usually caught by trap. As practiced commercially this kind of trapping goes beyond non-sustainable and has done massive damage to local fisheries in recent decades.

Dungeness crab are considered a sustainable fishery when regulations are obeyed, but in the live crab tank at my local Asian markets I often see many obviously undersized crabs. As far as I know Dungeness crabs are not farmed and the small crabs mean fewer crabs next year....if I'm wrong about that please correct me.

- MT

[David Ross]

I find that some of the 'staples' of Asian cooking are the items that are far cheaper than the same type of items in the supermarket, and those are the items I go for.

The best example I can find is Toasted Sesame Oil. My Asian market sells about 4 different brands, all imported from different countries in Asia. I can buy a large bottle for under $5. But the local supermarkets usually only offer one brand of toasted sesame oil for about $3.50 for a small bottle. The quality, quantity and price of the larger bottle in the Asian market is the better buy for me. A few of our supermarkets also offer an upscale, organic toasted sesame oil from a US producer, but it is really expensive.

So while many US cooks are buying sesame oil today, it is still probably not a big seller in the supermarket and as such, the price is pretty high.

In terms of fresh foods-I can only buy Pork Belly at my Asian market. It is so cheap I just think I'm stealing it from the market-only $1.99 a pound. I can buy fresh duck leg quarters for $1.69 a pound which I use to make duck confit. Again, a steal in terms of price and the supermarkets don't even sell pork belly or duck legs. But again, these meats are regularly used by Asian cooks and with the exception of foodies like us, I don't think many Americans would buy pork belly if it was in the meat case at the supermarket.

[doctorandchef]

Another possible factor:

Cash business + Chinese = creative accounting. I can say with a certain degree of confidence as I am Chinese. Of course I am grossly generalizing but I suspect I'm not too far off.

As well, locally in Toronto most of the workers are paid very poorly and in cash i.e. no benefits, insurance, pension, taxes etc.

I also suspect some of the suppliers are chinese and therefore more creative accounting between the merchant and supplier....

As well, there have been several asian supermarket chains turning over due to non-payment of bills... one of them most infamously was the Big Land Farm chain.

I still think creative accounting is a big factor. I could be wrong.

[larrylee]

This was also discussed in aother topic:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=99765

The reason why produce may go bad faster is because it may be picked much closer to its peak freshness. Anyway, it's all in the other topic.

[Jamie Lee]

Larrylee:

Thanks for the link to the other thread... I searched - really I did! - but I didn't think to search the NY thread!

Again, good info there.

[annecros]

I like the deals I get at the ethnic markets, but what I like even better is knowing that the turnover in the ethnic ingredient I want is much higher. Fresher product, more shelf life.

Publix has dust on the bottle of sesame oil. The Asian Market does not.

[MarkIsCooking]

The best Asian market near me (Boston suburbs) is a store called Super 66. The store is borderline in the cleanliness department, to be sure. You have to be very careful picking produce, but there surely are some very good deals.

The Asian ingredients are a must. Lost of them. Interesting stuff you don't see elsewhere.

Our store has a sizeable fish department, again a little scary from the sanitation point of view, but it's the only place near me where I can buy live Dungeness crab. Of course, I need to use sign language to get across to the guy taking it out of the tank that I want a very lively one.

To me, they're a place to visit on occasion for selective items. Glad they're here.

-Mark-

[larrylee]

No problem!

[snowangel]

In addition to some of the things that Steven said, I know that none of the Asian supermarkets here advertise -- other than something in the yellow pages, which really isn't an ad, just a listing. And, no weekly sales on certain items.

And, I'm pretty darned sure that they are not employing union employees -- in many cases, grandma is working the meat counter and the teens are working the registers.

They are not buying cryovaced pieces of meat; rather they are getting whole halves and butchering them themselves, and I'll bet that they use every single piece of that side.

But, what floors me is the price of some of the imported sauces. My bottle of Kwong Heng Hung Sauce (complete with florid label) cost $.99. The thing, full, weighed about 2 pounds. For $.99 they are able to manufacture, ship (from Thailand to a the West Coast and truck to Minnesota) and still make something on it?

And, I've always wondered how many of them are selling lottery tickets (from Thailand) under the table?

[Genny]

What a great topic!

I have a market about 20 minutes (by freeway) here called Lee Lee's. It carries not only Asian products but also Indian, European, and South American. It is in what used to be a regular major grocery store. There is almost an entire isle devoted to tea from around the world, in various languages depending on the market it was originally produced for. I'm relatively certain I look like a tourist every time I go, just gawking and reading labels. But I choose a new ingredient every time to try and have found other patrons of every ethnicity friendly.

The produce section is amazing. I look at my "regular" store and shake my head because the items offered are so limited and familiar and expensive by comparison.

I do agree, it makes sense that a factor in lower prices has to be the wider community draw without having to advertise for patronage. But, they do have "sale" items. Recently they had a special on the small yellow mangos, a produce box full for $10. People were snatching these things up! I'd never had one so I only bought 2 of them as I'm the only one in my house who eats them. OMG! The texture was like custard, they were sweet and tart and creamy it was like breakfast for dessert!!

[Terrasanct]

Another possible factor not mentioned here is the amount of waste found in a typical American supermarket. They don't just throw out produce that is starting to go bad, they throw out the good stuff too if they get a new shipment and don't have room. I can't see that happening at an Asian store, or at any smaller store where they are trying to make a profit. It's not just produce, either--if a case of jelly has one broken jar and it spills on the other 11 jars, instead of washing up the unbroken jars they toss the whole thing in the dumpster.

So maybe the question isn't why are Asian markets so cheap, but why are the other ones so expensive?

[Preserver]

everyone has good point's and guesses, but we also have to remember that they for one won't throw out everything. they would just trim it if it does not look good. which i support cos of wastage...here are some of my guesses and 2cents

1) not many asian markets have romaine but bok choy. targeting a specific market.

2) cash only

3) trimming not throwing away produce, hence no wastages. cut cost there.

4) cheaper labor, no union, family member as staff.

5) "working" with the supplier/farmer, so no middle man.

6) most asian restaurants are in the vicinity and most often than not their order is not enough to make supplier want to deliver so they buy from the markets.

7) asian families buys fresh produce almost everyday.

8) most of the market owner's own their own building.

9) they are the only place that buys produce that most supermarkets don't carry much, so farmer's will cut them a better deal.

10) bottled stuff from other countries? well, cos of cheap product's and labor, thats why we get it cheap.

11) they buy everything in cash of course and no 30 day credit.

i know what i have stated here have mostly been covered by egulleter's but there are a few i have added in. there maybe more....i know it well cos i am asian as well

[Patapsco Mike]

Or maybe they save a few bucks on maintenance, electricity and rat traps...

"I personally inspected it today. It's not good," Dr. Peter L. Beilenson, the county health commissioner, said yesterday. "It is one of two or three of the poorest examples of supermarket hygiene I've seen in 15 years."

I shop at this gigantic Korean supermarket all the time, it's incredibly cheap for so many things and has a wonderful selection of goods. Stories like the one above won't stop me from visiting, but they will make me be extra careful about what I buy.

Edited August 14, 2007 by Patapsco Mike (log)

[huiray]

This post and those responding to it have been moved from here.

 

Sadly, if it wasn't obvious, there is no Malay health food store in hiking distance.

 
Doubtless.  
 
I still wonder, though, about going to a Korean store as the first port of call... just my thoughts.  Even in the Hanareum megastores in NJ that I visited occasionally when I lived in NJ they were loathe to stock much in the way of Chinese or Japanese stuff (other than Korean, that is) let alone SE Asian stuff.  I would have tried a Chinese grocery or an "Asian" grocery first...or Vietnamese... rather than a specifically Korean grocery... just sayin'. 
 
Of course, if the only E/SE Asian grocery near you was a Korean grocery then that is perfectly understandable... :-) 
 
ETA:  It's just my personal experience, but I have also not noticed Korean groceries elsewhere in places I've lived in (including my present location) stocking much beyond Korean and Japanese stuff, with limited Chinese things.  Rarely other stuff from SE Asia.  By the same token, I don't see very much Korean stuff in specifically Chinese groceries, with some exceptions.
 
ETA2: I suppose this might also be an illustration of why the coverall word "Asian" is really meaningless, as I have harped upon (as some here will say) without a baseline definition of what one is referring to.
 
ETA3:  I pointed out the skew in the stocking to a friend I was visiting such a Hanareum store with, who had visited such stores whenever she wanted "Asian stuff" and it turned out she had (like many other folks) assumed that "Asian" and "Korean" meant much the same.  She had not thought about the differences between Chinese stuff, let alone Cantonese versus Szechuanese versus Shanghainese stuff (they were all the same to her) and in a general sense had also considered "Korean" stuff to be equivalent to anyothersortof Asian stuff.
 
ETA4:  And we are not even getting into "Indian" stuff.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

The store is a small health food store that happens to be owned by a couple from Korea.  They sell odd Asian stuff and odd European stuff and probably a lot of other odd stuff.  (This is a community with a lot of odd Asians and odd Europeans.)  A few years ago they downsized the store but I still sometimes find odd stuff that I am looking for.  I can't say I've seen much there in the way of Korean groceries.  This is a semi-rural area and I don't have a vehicle so I shop where I can.  It made more sense to me than trying the local drugstore.

 

For dinner I plan to cook tomato sauce, and then either have pasta or pizza.  Once I recover from this migraine.  Or I may just have a salad.