Lower East Slide

[savethedeli]

2nd Ave Deli closed...now it's Gertel's Bakery? What next, and where is this headed? Can anything stop the tide of institutions closing down and should they be preserved?

[Nathan]

2nd Ave Deli closed...now it's Gertel's Bakery?  What next, and where is this headed?  Can anything stop the tide of institutions closing down and should they be preserved?

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well...2nd Ave Deli was in the EV, not the LES. and it's going to reopen.

Katz's is a concern

[AzianBrewer]

2nd Ave Deli closed...now it's Gertel's Bakery?  What next, and where is this headed?  Can anything stop the tide of institutions closing down and should they be preserved?

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well...2nd Ave Deli was in the EV, not the LES. and it's going to reopen.

Katz's is a concern

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Any day of the reopening???

[Pan]

2nd Ave Deli closed...now it's Gertel's Bakery?  What next, and where is this headed?  Can anything stop the tide of institutions closing down and should they be preserved?

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well...2nd Ave Deli was in the EV, not the LES. and it's going to reopen.

Katz's is a concern

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EV historically=northern part of LES. Though with the new generation and the condominiums, we increasingly hear statements like yours. I'm still of the "same difference" mentality on this.

savethedeli, this is no longer a largely Jewish neighborhood, so the closure of some more Jewish institutions is presumably to be expected. Katz's is so popular with all ethnicities that it's likely to be an exception and, even if closed in its current location, will almost doubtless continue in another building.

[savethedeli]

technicalities about where and when aside, does the demise of New York's food institutions stir you? For a city that's known as the unique and historic exception in a nation of chain outlets and fast food, seeing the Gertel's and others replaced by more and more Subway's and Cold Stone Creameries sure saddens me.

What are your favorite NYC institutions that have gone by the wayside over the years?

[Nathan]

technicalities about where and when aside, does the demise of New York's food institutions stir you?  For a city that's known as the unique and historic exception in a nation of chain outlets and fast food, seeing the Gertel's and others replaced by more and more Subway's and Cold Stone Creameries sure saddens me. 

What are your favorite NYC institutions that have gone by the wayside over the years?

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I don't get this. I agree that it's sad to see landmarks close....but, by and large, they're being replaced by new and unique restaurants (some of which have and will become institutions in their own right)...Gertel's may have closed...but Shopsin's just moved to the LES. outside of Times Square, the city is hardly becoming filled with chain restaurants.

[weinoo]

technicalities about where and when aside, does the demise of New York's food institutions stir you?  For a city that's known as the unique and historic exception in a nation of chain outlets and fast food, seeing the Gertel's and others replaced by more and more Subway's and Cold Stone Creameries sure saddens me. 

What are your favorite NYC institutions that have gone by the wayside over the years?

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It bums me out a bit - we've lost lots of good, historic places.

But Gertel's will remain as a distributor from it's Brooklyn location. And neither it nor Katz's will be replaced by Subways or Cold Stone Creameries - Gertel's will turn into a 10-storey or so condo, and who knows how tall the eventual condo that goes into Katz's space will be!!

[Pan]

technicalities about where and when aside, does the demise of New York's food institutions stir you?  For a city that's known as the unique and historic exception in a nation of chain outlets and fast food, seeing the Gertel's and others replaced by more and more Subway's and Cold Stone Creameries sure saddens me. 

What are your favorite NYC institutions that have gone by the wayside over the years?

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Well, growing up on the Upper West Side, I enjoyed my local Jewish kosher (I think?) deli, Gitlitz. It's been gone since the 70s. And there are a lot of non-Jewish places I miss. There's a thread on "Favorite Defunct Restaurants." I'll search for it and post a link later if no-one beats me to it.

[slkinsey]

Manhattan real estate is too valuable, and the demand is too high for ethnic restaurants that largely serve ethnic populations (as opposed to ethnic restaurants that serve foods with more widespread popularity) to stick around for very long after the target ethnic population moves away.

The reason the classic Jewish places are disappearing from the Lower East Side (and let's not forget Ratner's!) is because the Jews disappeared from the Lower East Side long ago. The Jewish places that remain there are largely vestigial -- kept alive by non-Jews, tourists and nostalgia visits back to the old neighborhood or, in the case of Katz's, because they are best-in-category for a food that has attained mainstream popularity.

East Harlem up around 118th Street used to be Italian. Same thing happened up there. Now it's Patsy's, Rao's and that's it.

Aren't there new Jewish shops, restaurants and bakeries springing up in the current neighborhoods with a high density of religious Jews? To a certain extent, I wonder why places like Gertel's don't play "follow the Jews" and move out to someplace like Boro Park.

Edited June 21, 2007 by slkinsey (log)

[raji]

Yes I was going to the say the same thing.... some of the oldest and most established immigrants who built New York City have long since fled for the suburbs. 2 of those communities are Italian and Jewish. Which is why you can pretty reliable get perfectly great Neopalitan-style pizza (and, thank god, Italian delis) in Westchester, Long Island, Staten Island and New Jersey and authentic Jewish deli and kosher food in Westchester and Connecticut.

I'd also add that there are reform Jews and then there are Orthodox and Hacedic etc... and I think the NY/Askinazi-Jewish soulfood most NYers are used to is more often prepped and consumed by reform Jews....

Myself being one, and I was featured on the Japanese equivalent of "the today show", and they shot b-roll footage of the hacedum in Williamsburg, and then cut over to me. I was kind of embarassed, because that's pretty far right from the judaism I grew up with...

[weinoo]

Manhattan real estate is too valuable, and the demand is too high for ethnic restaurants that largely serve ethnic populations (as opposed to ethnic restaurants that serve foods with more widespread popularity) to stick around for very long after the target ethnic population moves away.

The reason the classic Jewish places are disappearing from the Lower East Side (and let's not forget Ratner's!) is because the Jews disappeared from the Lower East Side long ago.  The Jewish places that remain there are largely vestigial -- kept alive by non-Jews, tourists and nostalgia visits back to the old neighborhood or, in the case of Katz's, because they are best-in-category for a food that has attained mainstream popularity.

East Harlem up around 118th Street used to be Italian.  Same thing happened up there.  Now it's Patsy's, Rao's and that's it.

Aren't there new Jewish shops, restaurants and bakeries springing up in the current neighborhoods with a high density of religious Jews?  To a certain extent, I wonder why places like Gertel's don't play "follow the Jews" and move out to someplace like Boro Park.

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I agree with some of this rationale, but the few remaining places down here on the lower east side are not necessarily kept alive by non-Jews.

Kossar's Bialys is orthodox owned as is The Pickle Guys on Essex (and Guss' I believe). We have a glatt kosher deli and strictly kosher bakeries, pizzerias, and whatnot on Grand St., all owned and operated by orthodox jews.

And once Gertel got, say, $5 mil for his building, why bother following anyone anywhere?

[Fat Guy]

Jews moving away from the Lower East Side (which historically includes Alphabet City, the East Village and parts of Chinatown, Little Italy and NoLIta -- when I was in high school in the mid-1980s we actually referred to our East 15th Street location as the Lower East Side, though 14th Street was probably the more generally accepted dividing line; East Village was a term invented by realtors and took awhile to become a mainstream designation) is part of it, but lots of Jews still live around there, especially where the Second Avenue Deli was, and for the past several years I'm sure the LES Jewish population has been growing not shrinking. In addition, you have neighborhoods like the Upper West Side where the Jewish -- including religious Jewish -- population is quite dense and has been trending denser for some time, but the traditional Jewish restaurants have been closing there too (the main exception being Artie's, which is probably the only serious Jewish deli to open in New York City in my lifetime). So I think it's more than a question of population shift. It's also got to be a question of what that population is eating. Even on the Upper West Side, where we've seen a whole mess of kosher restaurants open, we're not seeing Jewish deli and dairy restaurants. We're seeing Dougie's BBQ, because even observant Jews who only dine at kosher restaurants aren't supporting the serious delis. Pretty much across the board, the culture has moved on from those foods as mainstays and now sees them as occasional indulgences.

[weinoo]

...and for the past several years I'm sure the LES Jewish population has been growing not shrinking...So I think it's more than a question of population shift. It's also got to be a question of what that population is eating. Even on the Upper West Side, where we've seen a whole mess of kosher restaurants open, we're not seeing Jewish deli and dairy restaurants. We're seeing Dougie's BBQ, because even observant Jews who only dine at kosher restaurants aren't supporting the serious delis. Pretty much across the board, the culture has moved on from those foods as mainstays and now sees them as occasional indulgences.

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Very well put, Fat Guy. In the coops along Grand St., the (observant) Jewish population has indeed been growing over the past couple of years.

We have elevators that stop at every floor on the Sabbath, and our buildings recently installed a filtration device between the city water supply and ours that filters out microscopic shellfish from the water (not -kosher, you know!)!

I would add that in addition to Artie's, our local kosher deli (actually a spin-off of a popular New Jersey location) is the 2nd one I've seen open in my lifetime. It's not "mainstream" Manhattan, but it's on the (real) LES.

[savethedeli]

It's not strictly demographic. Brooklyn retains a large Jewish population, but the traditional Jewish eateries are mostly gone. A large difference has been the split that Glatt Kosher created in the past decades, which basically created a very expensive, very niche food for the observant, which many Jews do not eat because of cost and sadly quality.