Overeating, Denial, & Their Implications

[JanMcBaker]

When I read your original post, my first thought was "Oh great, now what are they saying is going to kill fat people?" I had not heard of anything associating esophageal hemorrhage with obesity or diabetes. In fact, after doing some research, it appears that the major risk factors for esophageal hemorrhage include alcoholism, or liver problems such as cirrhosis or hepatitis.

There is a variety of people in the world, with a variety of physical characteristics in height, skin color, eye color, etc..... Oh, and size. If there's such a variety among people-- naturally occurring variations-- why wouldn't it follow that there's a naturally occurring variation in weight? Obesity is not automatically a death sentence, any more than being thin automatically means you're healthy.

As for why fat people eat the way they do, does it really matter? What if it's for the same reasons anyone eats the way they do, no matter what size they are? Then what? Where is it shown that how or why fat people 'deal with food' is any more pathological than how anyone else 'deals' with it?

[Pan]

Jan, Sharon had a series of symptoms associated with diabetes, and as far as hemorrhages are concerned, you left out a major (the major, I'd think?) cause for them: Chronic or untreated high blood pressure, which is associated with heaviness in many cases.

And yes, I think it does matter if someone is obese because of emotional reasons and can't stop stuffing herself when she's been diagnosed with diabetes, instead rationalizing that just sleeping and eating were good for her. That's like a smoker who can't quit when she's in the hospital for lung cancer, and I've met someone like that.

Living is an automatic death sentence! But you have to ask yourself how many obese octogenarians you've met. I haven't met many. With all the risk factors in my family, I've had one relative who lived to 96 -- my great-uncle (I also had a great-great grandfather on my mother's side who lived to 104, but he died in the 1950s). He was in pretty robust health until he was 94, and always slim. You know any obese 94-year-olds?

Edited June 29, 2007 by Pan (log)

[Torrilin]

I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I'm even sorrier that her doctors tried to help and she wouldn't listen.

I fear someday ending up like my mother, and her mother. My grandmother died of type II diabetes. My mother has type II diabetes and had to fight her doctors for nearly 10 years to get real treatment. Her healthy eating plan made it hard for her to get diagnosed. She would gain and gain and gain, be unable to lose weight no matter how much she controlled her diet or exercised, and rarely have a fasting blood test that looked bad... but once she got an A1C it was obvious she was diabetic. Both mom and I are terrified of amputations and the other side effects of the disease.

I'm trying to go one step further than mom, and incorporate more exercise into my lifestyle. Very frustrating since I have a bicycle, love it and am very obviously gaining strength... and not losing inches. All this fat can't be good for me (35 lbs over my previous healthy weight, and until the last month or so it was all fat). So a scale and a food diary are going to be the next additions to my plan to avoid diabetes. Not very fun, nor very glamorous, but I do not want insulin shots to be a part of my life, ever.

My mother habitually brings at least one other family member to her doctor visits, because ordinarily even the best doctor will not listen as well without a 3rd party present. Despite this, she's suffered through some extraordinarily bad medical treatment, because doctors assume that she's fat because she can't control her eating. And if she can't control her eating, she certainly won't do rehab for injuries, or exercise... That attitude left her without the use of her right arm for over a year, and insured that she'd never get full use back after she shattered her shoulder joint and the original repair left a pocket of infection buried in the bone. She now is on her second shoulder joint reconstruction, and she may someday be able to drive again. She'll never get full use of the arm back. The joint was damaged for too long.

[Pan]

Torrilin, I'm so sorry to read of your mother's troubles. Thanks for sharing, and good luck to both of you!

[Mottmott]

We're all sorry for Michel's loss. And I like many of you have lost family members to food and/or tobacco. The question is how we can improve our own health. Addicting as tobacco is, we can at least banish it. Food is a more insidious problem; we must eat and yet control it. I think - at least for me - the key is to maximize the pleasure while reducing the calories.

Obesity and weight control issues in general is such a complex issue. A few weeks ago there was a very thoughtful program about it on Charlie Rose (click on episode 6), which suggests some possible future progress.

In the meantime, what are we to do? When I see anyone who is obese, I feel so sad for them, for the pain they must be in or will be when that weight finally takes its toll on their joints. What it might do to their health in general. I know that with only 25-30 lbs more than I should weigh, my joints and back feel it. If I lose as much as 5 pounds (or put it on), I can immediately feel the difference. What this weight change, up or down, may do to my internal systems I can only guess.

As one who loves to eat, and in fact am a sweet freak, what am I to do? My already degraded joints make significant amounts of exercise an unattractive option. If I could do more exercise I might be able to reach my optimum weight. But I have devised a way to at least keep from gaining. It's a compromise that keeps me from gaining weight even if it has not led to losing weight. I admit up front that it requires more time and expense to do this:

--1. I do not eat fast food. Ever.

--2. I either cook my own food or eat at carefully chosen restaurants that emphasize quality over quantity. It is clear to me that the more nutritious and better tasting my food is, the less I need to satisfy my hunger.

--3. I avoid factory foods other than such basic ingredients such as canned tomatoes, dried pasta, etc. And to the extent possible, I try to use the fresh version of those.

-- 4. I try to buy high quality, preferably organic and local and seasonal, fruits, vegetables, and animal foods. I find this yields more flavorful food geneally.

--5. I control the amount and quality of my carbohydrates. I buy artisanal bread or make it myself. I eat pasta fairly often, but weigh out 2-3 oz portions. I avoid adding bread to any meal that contains another carbohydrate.

--6. I eat large amounts of fresh fruits and vegetables, setting no limits, but often either eat them raw or prepare them by steaming or roasting.

--7. Except for baking or a few special savory dishes, I use only olive oil or grapeseed oil. No transfats.

--8. I eat no factory made snack foods (chips, etc). I keep several kinds of nuts, fruits, dark chocolate, smoked fish, herring bits, olives, pickles, or other strong flavored foods.

--9. I cannot stop eating sweets. This is my biggest challenge. So absolutely no mass marketed cakes or candies. I keep a 70% Valhrona chocolate on hand, and I find that an ounce or two will satisfy my chocolate cravings. Occasionally I will buy a pastry from a high end bakery (cannele are a particular favorite), but in general I limit myself to sweets I have baked or cooked or cooked myself. I will make a batch of cookies, scones, etc., that can be frozen and baked off, a few at a time to eat. If I make 3, 6, or 12, I'm likely to eat them all, so I only bake off what I need to satisfy my sweet urge. The cakes I make tend to be nut or other cakes that can be finished by a dusting of powdered sugar instead of buttercream, etc.

The pattern is to keep myself from becoming hungry, not to deprive myself of foods I like but to prepare them in ways that give strong satisfying flavors and control the amounts of calories. Eating 3-400 calories worth of cherries takes a lot longer than a candy bar and is nourishing besides.

If I could follow my regimen more scrupulously, and if I could conquer my sweet tooth I might even be able to lose enough to reach optimum weight. But the perfect is the enemy of the good.

[Lindacakes]

This is a very, very interesting thread and I thank everyone for contributing to it.

I lean farther in the direction of Fat Guy's comments than anyone else's but I'd go even further with it.

I, personally, have an issue with the issues approach to weight. I know this is absolutely a factor in eating as well as many other habits that are not-so-healthy for people. People gamble to feel better, people shop to feel better, people have sex to feel better, people physically hurt other people to feel better, people smoke to feel better, people exercise power over other people to feel better, people make money to feel better, people drink alcohol to feel better, and people give up and stop trying to feel better.

It seems to me that it is only fat people who are made to feel truly inferior and ashamed about themselves and their need to feel better. In spite of the fact that sugar consumption raises seratonin levels in the brain and actually makes people feel better! Who well may have felt bad because of low seratonin levels in the first place.

All of us have different metabolisms. What is true for one person's body is not true for another person's body. One of my brothers was thin all his life. Ate whatever he wanted to. Didn't exercise. Kept a block of Velveeta cheese in his fridge and a pile of candy bars and cookies in his cupboard. God bless him. My other brother eats bags of burritos from Sam's Club, drinks soda, and works his arse off daily. Physically. He's a fat boy. I follow Mottmott's dietary rules, I'm a nun with my organic lunch and my quinoa. I also like sugar and I sit on my butt for a living. I'm a fat girl.

All of us live in a society which is obsessed with appearance, and obsessed with money. And these factors collide to make it quite difficult for us to concentrate on health, safety and human kindness. The food industry doesn't really want us to be well fed, and the diet industry doesn't really want us to be thin. The school system does not value physical education and we are not encouraged, while working in front of our computers 10 to 12 hours a day, to exercise. We have to pay for the right to exercise with machines inside a building if we're lucky enough to have time to do it.

Sigh.

What I really like, though, is how many people in this thread have identified themselves as fat. We're eGulleters and we're fat. And it's okay. It's okay to be fat and like food and accept oneself. And to also care about our health and well-being and the health and well-being of our friends.

I am sorry for your loss, Pan. I'm sorry that you lost your musician friend who understood being a musician and music with you. I'm sorry that she lost her life early and I'm sorry that she had sadness in her life. I lost that skinny brother mentioned above too early. And since that day I've tried to hold on to what is important and happy about every day and every person with as much love and compassion as possible.

[JanMcBaker]

It seems to me that it is only fat people who are made to feel truly inferior and ashamed about themselves and their need to feel better.  In spite of the fact that sugar consumption raises seratonin levels in the brain and actually makes people feel better!  Who well may have felt bad because of low seratonin levels in the first place.

All of us have different metabolisms.  What is true for one person's body is not true for another person's body.  One of my brothers was thin all his life.  Ate whatever he wanted to.  Didn't exercise.  Kept a block of Velveeta cheese in his fridge and a pile of candy bars and cookies in his cupboard.  God bless him.  My other brother eats bags of burritos from Sam's Club, drinks soda, and works his arse off daily.  Physically.  He's a fat boy.  I follow Mottmott's dietary rules, I'm a nun with my organic lunch and my quinoa.  I also like sugar and I sit on my butt for a living.  I'm a fat girl.

What I really like, though, is how many people in this thread have identified themselves as fat.  We're eGulleters and we're fat.  And it's okay.  It's okay to be fat and like food and accept oneself.  And to also care about our health and well-being and the health and well-being of our friends.

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Linda--

Thank you so much for your post, and I am so sorry for the loss of your brother. Not matter what age they were, or what the reason was, it's always tough to lose someone you're close to.

'Fattism' seems to be the remaining 'acceptable' prejudice for people to have. I'm feeling even more strongly about this issue after finishing Gina Kolata's book 'Rethinking Thin'. She talks about various studies and research that has been done with weight and eating. Studies that show that fat people eat for the same reasons thin people do. That if you saw psychological profiles of fat people and thin people-- not the people themselves-- that you could not tell them apart. Fat people are no more pathological about eating than thin people are. Research that shows that hormones control a lot more of eating and weight than we realize, and that fat is basically another physical characteristic.

She also talks about how basically, 'fat is money.' At least, that's what I thought of when I read one section about the businesses that depend on fat people, and the universities that devote entire departments to weight and eating 'disorders.' Universities do pretty much the same studies time after time, year after year, and people may lose some weight, and most of them gain it back. Why do the researchers keep doing the same things over and over when they know it doesn't work?

And about the word 'fat'-- maybe it can be de-demonized. So many people automatically make derogatory associations with the word. It should not be any more or less of a descriptive word than the words thin, tall, short, blond, brunette, etc. And yes, it is ok to be fat, and to like food.... In fact, most of my life I assumed that I liked baking and cooking because I was fat. It was only within the last few years that I realized that I'd like food no matter what my size was-- that my interest in food had nothing to do with my size. I wish I had realized that 30 years ago!

Thanks again for your post, Linda. Maybe I can come up to Brooklyn some time and we can split a pizza at DiFara's!

[kategoldston]

Linda--

Thank you so much for your post, and I am so sorry for the loss of your brother. Not matter what age they were, or what the reason was, it's always tough to lose someone you're close to.

'Fattism' seems to be the remaining 'acceptable' prejudice for people to have. I'm feeling even more strongly about this issue after finishing Gina Kolata's book 'Rethinking Thin'. She talks about various studies and research that has been done with weight and eating. Studies that show that fat people eat for the same reasons thin people do. That if you saw psychological profiles of fat people and thin people-- not the people themselves-- that you could not tell them apart. Fat people are no more pathological about eating than thin people are. Research that shows that hormones control a lot more of eating and weight than we realize, and that fat is basically another physical characteristic.

She also talks about how basically, 'fat is money.' At least, that's what I thought of when I read one section about the businesses that depend on fat people, and the universities that devote entire departments to weight and eating 'disorders.' Universities do pretty much the same studies time after time, year after year, and people may lose some weight, and most of them gain it back. Why do the researchers keep doing the same things over and over when they know it doesn't work?

And about the word 'fat'-- maybe it can be de-demonized. So many people automatically make derogatory associations with the word. It should not be any more or less of a descriptive word than the words thin, tall, short, blond, brunette, etc. And yes, it is ok to be fat, and to like food.... In fact, most of my life I assumed that I liked baking and cooking because I was fat. It was only within the last few years that I realized that I'd like food no matter what my size was-- that my interest in food had nothing to do with my size. I wish I had realized that 30 years ago!

Thanks again for your post, Linda. Maybe I can come up to Brooklyn some time and we can split a pizza at DiFara's!

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[Pan]

I'm sorry for your loss, Linda, and I appreciate your thoughtful post.

[...]It seems to me that it is only fat people who are made to feel truly inferior and ashamed about themselves and their need to feel better.  In spite of the fact that sugar consumption raises seratonin levels in the brain and actually makes people feel better!  Who well may have felt bad because of low seratonin levels in the first place.[...]

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That's interesting about seratonin.

I don't want people to feel bad about their weight, though. That's not my point in this thread. I just want all of us to be conscious of what we're doing to ourselves in our choices on eating and drinking, recognizing that all of us will die and you don't need to have evident risk factors to die early. We need to be aware and take responsibility for our choices, within the range of choices we actually have, recognizing that biology is destiny to some degree.

And I'd add that my father was overweight for most of his life but lost a lot of weight when he had to for urgent health reasons (as I understand it, you cannot stuff yourself while on dialysis for kidney failure, if you want to decrease the risk of sudden death). So it really is possible for some people who have a clear tendency toward obesity to lose weight when sufficiently motivated. And in those cases, the question is what will be sufficiently scary to motivate us enough? I know that I haven't "reached bottom" yet, so I'm losing weight only a little, slowly, and fitfully.

And now, a relevant personal confession:

I ate a pint of Haagen-Dazs Rum Raisin Ice Cream last night after dinner, and I'm paying for it now. It upset my stomach and is causing reflux, in spite of my reflux medication. That's also meant that I couldn't lie down and try to sleep all night. I didn't feel a powerful compulsion to that ice cream; I chose to eat it. That was a bad choice. THESE are the kinds of things I'm talking about. I made a mistake, recognize that fact, and am taking responsibility for it.

Edited July 13, 2007 by Pan (log)