The Atkins Diet Topic

[klc14]

quoting Marlene (Posted: Sep 5 2002, 05:25 AM)

QUOTE (Fat Guy @ Sep 5 2002, 05:20 AM)

Can somebody explain to me how alcoholic beverages fit into a low carb diet? I've noticed that many low carb adherents make this seemingly incongruous exception to the regimen.

Alcoholic beverages don't really fall into any "diet" as an acceptable item, however, in the spirit of "all things in moderation" most "diets" or weight programs allow them, mostly because they know people are not likely to give them up.

As a point of reference, I lose more weight when I don't drink at all, following the same eating patterns that I do when I do drink. It tends to be a matter of making choices as are most things in life.

.

I believe that is because alcohol metabolizes as fat. (I learned about this when my mother got strict on her diabetic diet. ) It has to do with the aldehyde chains of the molecules or something, if I recall the biology textbook table correctly. Maybe I don't.

Anyway, there are 9 calories in a gram of fat, 4 calories in a gram of carbohydrate, 4 calories in a gram of protein. Alcohol metabolizes in your system as if it had 9 calories per gram, if I may belabor my point.

I seem to remember, however, that beer was counted as a carbohydrate on the food exchange list, and we joked about drinking a slice of bread with your burger.

So by not drinking alcohol you are seriously taking in fewer calories. As Marlene says, a matter of making choices.

[ronnie_suburban]

quoting Marlene (Posted: Sep 5 2002, 05:25 AM)

QUOTE (Fat Guy @ Sep 5 2002, 05:20 AM)

Can somebody explain to me how alcoholic beverages fit into a low carb diet? I've noticed that many low carb adherents make this seemingly incongruous exception to the regimen.

Alcoholic beverages don't really fall into any "diet" as an acceptable item, however, in the spirit of "all things in moderation" most "diets" or weight programs allow them, mostly because they know people are not likely to give them up.

As a point of reference, I lose more weight when I don't drink at all, following the same eating patterns that I do when I do drink. It tends to be a matter of making choices as are most things in life.

.

I believe that is because alcohol metabolizes as fat. (I learned about this when my mother got strict on her diabetic diet. ) It has to do with the aldehyde chains of the molecules or something, if I recall the biology textbook table correctly. Maybe I don't.

Anyway, there are 9 calories in a gram of fat, 4 calories in a gram of carbohydrate, 4 calories in a gram of protein. Alcohol metabolizes in your system as if it had 9 calories per gram, if I may belabor my point.

I seem to remember, however, that beer was counted as a carbohydrate on the food exchange list, and we joked about drinking a slice of bread with your burger.

So by not drinking alcohol you are seriously taking in fewer calories. As Marlene says, a matter of making choices.

My understanding from having read Atkins:

A body will burn alcohol (for fuel) first...so, even if one is in BDK, alcohol will be burned ahead of fat. During periods when alcohol is in one's system, weight loss via BDK essentially stops--but only while the alcohol is present. After the alcohol is used, fat is again used as fuel by the body (assuming that one is in BDK).

=R=

[ExtraMSG]

I am currently on my own version of the Atkin's diet. I have friends (who talked me into trying it) who are on the true Atkin's diet. When I was in middle school I was 220 lbs. My freshman year of high school, I dropped 70 lbs. I gained about 20-30 lbs back in high school, but went crazy in college living in the mountain states eating nothing but complex carbs and fats. I ballooned to about 330 lbs at my peak.

About two or three years ago I decided that I wanted to lose it. I was tired of buying clothes at the big and tall store and the strain on my body whenever I did anything active (and actually, I was quite active and my heart and lungs were in pretty good shape; I played basketball and golf regularly and had blood pressure that usually came in around 110 over 70; I was 27.) I didn't know about Atkin's. I had a friend who had been an amateur body builder who told me about a diet method body builders use to cut weight fast and maintain muscle. I figured this would allow me to maintain a good metabolism. I am a person who has never lost weight easy. I've always been active, played multiple sports every year of school, etc. If I ate the same as my friends, I would gain weight. They wouldn't. I made up my own diet that was surprisingly similar to an Atkin's diet, except that I avoided fat as well. Basically, I ate high protein, low-fat, low-carbs. In normal day I would eat two grilled chicken breasts, a can of tuna (straight from the can), a banana, a non-fat, low-sugar yogurt, and a salad without dressing or just with vinegar. This is only about 700 calories.

I lost probably 100 lbs in 5 months. I lost another 30 lbs over the next six months. Since then I've gained back about 30 because I got really into food and eating out. Then I went on a modified Atkin's diet. Basically, I've cut out all the complex carbs. I pretty much never eat bread, pasta, rice, grains, or potatoes. Every once in a while when I go out and they have something special. Really, though, these items are fillers or vehicles for fat and salt. There's not much point in eating a starch if it doesn't have fat and salt. Instead, I focus on meats and vegetables. And when I eat vegetables, there's no problem eating them with butter. A typical day would be a "scramble" for lunch where I sautee some diced bacon, add in some onion and garlic, then a bratwurst, then some diced bell pepper. Then I either added a couple whisked eggs and scramble them and serve it all together, or one of my favorites is to cook a couple eggs sunnyside up or over easy and use the yolk as a sauce. A lot of food and flavor and very filling. Then for dinner I might have a pound of sauteed steak with the fond deglazed in wine, reduced, and then finished with butter. Add that to some spinach sauteed in butter and you're set with a tasty meal. No starches, but none needed. If I just eat that type of thing 7 days a week, I lose weight even without exercise. It's only a couple pounds a week, but it's noticeable. If I go out to eat a couple times a week and eat pretty much everything, I still have no problem maintaining weight, which is my goal right now even though at some point (I currently have a back injury and so can't exercise much) plan on trying to get back down to about 200). For me, the Atkin's diet (or my modified version of it) is a great way to maintain weight and eat pretty tasty, rich stuff. Most restaurants have no problem subsituting for starches, too.

One thing to recognize about Atkin's actual plan is that it's not some static thing. It's geared to be dynamic and to be formed for each person. You don't just go off carbs for the rest of your life. You start the "induction" phase by going nearly completely off carbs so that your body converts to burning fats. Then you slowly bring back the carbs until you stop losing weight, then you slightly reduce your carbs so that you are losing weight again and stay like that until you are at your goal weight. Then you raise the carbs back to a maintenence level. The goal is to remain there forever. It's really not that bad.

I think Atkin's was a bit of a kook, but no more than most food ideologues. Certainly less of a kook than raw foodists, vegans, and macrobioticists. But he definitely bought into a lot of fads without much basis in science. But at least his diet has a foundation in science even if there are some rough edges to be worked out over time. So far about the worst thing science can say about it conclusively is that people who go off it gain weight back about as fast as anyone else who goes off any other diet.

[Megaroo]

Since reading the Salon/Slashdot article, my dear fiancé has decided that this is the diet for us (we're both trying to lose weight for the wedding). I've done the Atkins before and lost about 15 lbs, but unfortunately, since I was the only one eating that way, it was REALLY hard to stick to it. However, I think this time around it will be better, since Greg's on it too now.

I'd like to say that the people who say that Atkins doesn't let you eat veggies have never read the book. Dr. Atkins WANTS you to eat veggies, but only specific ones (or the others in moderation). Last night I grilled some fresh veggies (carrots, broccoli & califlower) and had that with a marinated salmon steak for dinner. You can't tell me that that doesn't sound good or healthy!

Skip those Advantage bars and the shakes too. The only time I eat the shakes is when I'm having a bad sugar craving, so I end up blending it in the blender with some ice (Slim-Fast style).

Anyways, I've got to head off now, but I'd love to revive this thread and get some new ideas!

[krisdata]

I'm interested in this topic too... As of yesterday, I'm on the South Beach Diet.

Now, I've never been a devotee of the fad diet either, but one of my coworkers talked me into this one. It's similar to Atkins, for those who don't know of it, in that for the first two weeks you're not supposed to touch carbs. After two weeks, you reintroduce carbs to your diet, focusing on whole-grain, less processed versions. The main difference is that South Beach also encourages low fat eating. From what I understand, Atkins allows bacon, etc. South Beach encourages eating lean meats and restricting fat intake. You can have all the low-fat cheese you want, but not the regular versions.

Still, it seems like there's a lot of overlap. Does anyone have any interesting recipe ideas? So far this week dinners are and . (Although I did make some yummy lettuce wraps last night...)

Any hints?

[ronnie_suburban]

Since reading the Salon/Slashdot article, my dear fiancé has decided that this is the diet for us (we're both trying to lose weight for the wedding).

Are you talking about the 'Hackers on Atkins' article? That was a fun read.

=R=

[Ling]

I was wondering if anyone in Vancouver knows where I can buy the SF Da Vinci's syrup to use in coffee and other recipes?

edit: Oops, nevermind. I just found out you can get it at JJ Bean.

Edited November 4, 2003 by Ling (log)

[Megaroo]

Ling, if you ever head down to the States (I'm right across the border from you), there's a place in Bellingham called Cash n' Carry, which is a restaurant supply store open to the public. They've got the best prices by FAR that I've seen. They also have a great selection. So, if you're heading down this way, try heading there to stock up.

[fendel]

The main difference is that South Beach also encourages low fat eating.  From what I understand, Atkins allows bacon, etc.  South Beach encourages eating lean meats and restricting fat intake. 

Personally, I'd rather have the fat. I've known people whose cholesterol profiles (and, of course, weight) have significantly improved on Atkins, even with the higher fat intake. Fat satiates. Without the fat, you wind up eating more protein to fill up; excess protein is basically converted to carbs in the body. Not to mention the fact that fat is tasty, which is a Good Thing.

Can't help you with dinner ideas, if you're doing the lowfat thing, but I'm sure somebody will have some suggestions. My idea of dinner is something like a juicy steak with buttered green beans and salad, or roasted chicken (with the skin) and gravy with buttered cauliflower, or... well, you get the idea.

[babka]

After 2 weeks of Atkins, I lost my target of 10 lbs and learned lots and lots about cooking good fish and meats. Previously, I'd eaten anything at all when out or when served, but all of my kitchen skills were focused on vegetarian dishes. I saw the diet as a good excuse to expand my cooking horizons (okay, and prepare for a much-beloved friend's wedding this weekend. :).

I'm currently sitting here enjoying a whole new body: There's the brand new scar tissue between the fingers of my right hand from night 5, the slow healing burn on my right index finger from night 6, the itchy and slow healing splattering of burns on my chest and neck from night 7, the bruise-burn on my left ring finger from night 9, and the brand-spankin' new case of salmonella from night 14.

As of today, Atkins has been replaced with the strict vegetarian regime of Saltines and Ginger Ale, on which I'll apparently be remaining through the wedding.

(The funny thing is, I thought my basic skills were reasonably good--I can whip up a decent version of almost any vegetarian or bread-based dish that you'd like--but meats and fish require a different set of basic skills for which I haven't had practice. and I do mean _basic_. pat fish very dry before placing in pan. learn how to tell when the oil is the right temperature without relying on the scent of onions or garlic. when they say to "make sure the juices are clear, not pink," they really mean "buy a meat thermometer and use it on your first forays, dolt.")

Edited November 7, 2003 by babka (log)

[Ling]

The main difference is that South Beach also encourages low fat eating.  From what I understand, Atkins allows bacon, etc.  South Beach encourages eating lean meats and restricting fat intake. 

Personally, I'd rather have the fat. I've known people whose cholesterol profiles (and, of course, weight) have significantly improved on Atkins, even with the higher fat intake. Fat satiates. Without the fat, you wind up eating more protein to fill up; excess protein is basically converted to carbs in the body. Not to mention the fact that fat is tasty, which is a Good Thing.

Can't help you with dinner ideas, if you're doing the lowfat thing, but I'm sure somebody will have some suggestions. My idea of dinner is something like a juicy steak with buttered green beans and salad, or roasted chicken (with the skin) and gravy with buttered cauliflower, or... well, you get the idea.

You know what? I think I've become an Atkins convert too. At least for the past 5 days.

I don't have a lot of weight to lose, but I was up a good 8-9 lbs or so after Thanksgiving and Halloween (too many desserts, too much chocolate, and zero exercise ) I started Atkins on Sunday and I'm down a couple lbs already. Easiest weight I'd ever lost. I've been eating really well except for today--the stress of tomorrow's midterm made me eat twice the number of calories I'm used to, and I'm at about 45 grams of carbs today. Oh well.

I'm going to try to stick to it for a few more days. I don't think I could do this forever though, nor would I want to. I just love good bread and desserts way too much. But I do intend on trying to incorporate Atkins into my eating habits perhaps 5 days out of the week. Then on the weekends, I can go out to eat with my friends/family and choose lower-carb food, but have bread and desserts in reasonable amounts too. Is there any benefit in that? I don't know much about Atkins other than the basics.

Edited November 7, 2003 by Ling (log)

[stephenc]

How do Asians consume rice at every meal, yet still stay thin?

[krisdata]

Personally, I'd rather have the fat.

Yeah. Me too. This diet was the idea of a coworker who asked me to join her. And it really does work better to have the two of us doing it together, although she hasn't lost any weight (we're on day 10) and I think I've lost less than 5 pounds. I do feel like I'm eating healthier however...

Luckily, South Beach doesn't banish ALL fat. Steak is fine. Last night I had salmon in a tomato dill buerre blanc

Ah well. I think after Monday we'll probably chuck it anyway...

[ronnie_suburban]

How do Asians consume rice at every meal, yet still stay thin?

According to Dr. Atkins (I once saw an interview with him where the same question was asked), Asians generally eat considerably less overall than Americans, hence obesity isn't nearly as widespread in Asia. It was interesting because he also mentioned that the incidence of diabetes in Italian-Americans was 6 times the average, and suggested it was because of pasta consumption.

=R=

[jschyun]

People are apparently starting to get heart disease from Atkins

MSNBC on Atkins

[Allura]

My mother was put on a "modified low carb" diet specifically for high cholosterol. Basically, no pasta, potatoes, bread, sugar. Whole grain versions allowed in smallish amounts. I think it's helping.

[ronnie_suburban]

In the few months I followed Atkins diligently I lost around 35 pounds, lowered my total cholesterol by over 70 points and reduced my blood pressure significantly. During that time I felt more energetic than before and had some of my most productive workouts ever.

But for me, it was a very difficult regimen to follow. I love to cook and I love to eat. Unfortunately, that path runs straight through downtown Carbville.

The assertions that the death and the case of heart disease, reported in the linked article, are Atkins-related is quite serious. I'm not sure I believe them but more research would surely be helpful--with Atkins and other approaches too. But, doing this (or any) diet without a doctor's supervision is probably not optimal. On that note, if Mr. Gorran had been having even quarterly blood work done, he would have known that his cholesterol was rising and could have learned early on that the Atkins approach was not right for him. Instead, it appears (from the article) that he went 2.5 years while on Atkins without seeing a doctor--or least not one who bothered to check his cholesterol. Not good.

Also, (and if I appear cynical so be it) I've met many people who are "on Atkins" who really weren't on Atkins at all. They thought they were being good by eating sugar-free candy when that candy was not low carb. I know another person who told me he ate peanuts all the time while on Atkins. Peanuts are not particularly low in carbs. You get the idea. I wonder if Mr. Gorran or Ms. Huskey (an unfortunate pun of a name) even read Dr. Atkins' book. The following quote from the article's lead is telling:

Both say the high-fat, high-protein approach advocated by the Atkins diet was responsible

Atkins' approach is not high-fat, it is decidedly low-carb. The above belief, whether made by one of the subjects, one of the doctors (quoted in the article) or the writer, shows a fundamental lack of understanding about Dr. Atkins' philosophy.

Regardless of whose belief it is, the ignorance therein may very well have led to consequences--some more serious than others. If either Mr. Gorran or Ms. Huskey believed it, then it really wasn't being on Atkins which harmed and killed them. If the writer or Dr. Fleming believed it, then the article is mostly meaningless.

=R=

[ExtraMSG]

It's always a mistake to abstract from one case, even if it's true, and make a general rule. People are different. Diets have different effects on different people. The closest you can get to truth on something like this is statistics. Some guy who wants to sue and is being used for political purposes is not even a good beginning for truth.

The American Heart Association, imo, is making a mistake in coming out so strongly against low-carb diets. From what I've seen, they essentially just say that they don't care about the journal evidence showing benefits from low carb diets because they have already pre-judged it as bad. They've invested so much into low-fat, it seems to me, that they're unwilling to accept a multiplicity of truths.

In my reading up on Atkin's in sources like the New England Journal of Medicine, it seems to work at least as well as most other successful diets. I believe it generally lowers bad cholesterol and raises good cholesterol.

I wouldn't mind knowing more about the science of such things. What are the steps necessary for the body to make cholesterol, eg? eg, with fat, the body doesn't digest fat and that fat moves to directly to your thighs. It has to go through a chemical process. In fact, here's a good quote I found:

Fats: Fat molecules are a rich source of energy for the body. The first step in digestion of a fat is to dissolve it into the watery content of the intestinal cavity. The bile acids produced by the liver act as natural detergents to dissolve fat in water and allow the enzymes to break the large fat molecules into smaller molecules, some of which are fatty acids and cholesterol. The bile acids combine with the fatty acids and cholesterol and help these molecules to move into the cells of the mucosa. In these cells the small molecules are formed back into large molecules, most of which pass into vessels (called lymphatics) near the intestine. These small vessels carry the reformed fat to the veins of the chest, and the blood carries the fat to storage depots in different parts of the body.

Here's the link which discusses digestion.

[Anna N]

I'm not in favour of the Atkin's Diet (or any other diet!) but it might be worth noting that the CBC took this report with a grain of salt saying that the group making the claims (Physicians for Responsible Medicine) has its own agenda (vegetarianism!) so this might be worth exploring for those concerned.

[Ling]

Both say the high-fat, high-protein approach advocated by the Atkins diet was responsible

Atkins' approach is not high-fat, it is decidedly low-carb.

I was under the impression that Atkins is high-fat, at least on Induction. The recommended ratios are something like 65-70% fat, 20-25% protein, and 5% carbs (of your total caloric intake).

I've poked around on some of those Atkins support msg boards and the general consensus appears to be that more fat is desirable, since excess protein can be converted into carbs. Most ppl seem to keep their percentages in the 70% fat, 25% protein, 5% carb range.

[ExtraMSG]

Of course as a percentage of total calories if you're eating low carbs and you're not reducing fats, that in itself would mean that your fats would be high (or rather, calories from fats). But that's not necessarily the same thing as a high fat diet.

If I remember correctly, in his book Atkins warns about going overboard with the fats and says that some people who do not lose weight by just limiting their carbs may need to manage their fats as well.

I think he also warns against trying to greatly reduce ones fats, though, since he argues that the body will assume that it's being starved and thus try to store calories. I don't know how true that is, but it's one of those things you hear about all starrvation diets.

Of course at some point starvation works, but I don't know that it works in a good way, making you tired, losing muscle, hurting your organs, etc. I think his real point, though, is to say that you will lose weight more quickly by not starving your body. I think the idea is that while in ketosis you can consume a reasonable amount of calories mostly from fat and still lose weight and burn fat.

But anyway, you may not be consuming that much more or any more fat in absolute numbers, ie, grams, as an average person not on a diet. Or at least the average Southerner.

Edited November 21, 2003 by ExtraMSG (log)

[budrichard]

Atkins was a charlaton and had NO scientifc data, period. the US Ag Dept (I believe) hosted a panel discussion whose panelist including Atkins and Dr Dean Ornish. I saw the discussion where Ornish got Atkins to publicly admit the he had no study information.

Use your common sense. Does a high fat/protien diet sound healthy and likely to reduce your cholesterol? Ornish has results of cholesterol reduction on a non fat diet. I pick an intermiediate point, Low fat, but not extermely high protien, based on olive oil and fish with the occasional steak thrown in.

In a coversation with ,my Cardialogist, Dr Sam Wann at St Luke's in milwaukee a few weeks ago, even though my cholesteral levels are withing normals, those normals keep decreasing and he is reccamanding as a prohpylactic treatment Lipitor if a heart scan shows any calcium. I ride a road racing bike 25 miles a day at a 18-20 mph pace so my heart gets a proof test every time I ride along with my echo cardiograms etc. I believe in preventative medicine and not charlaton diet guru's whose only object is to sell books and make money. -Dick

[jhlurie]

JohnnyH's "Atkins and cholesterol" topic quickly sidelined into a general discussion of Atkins, so I've merged the topics. We don't need duplicate threads covering the exact same ground.

Carry on!

[guajolote]

The hardest part is the sweets (or lack thereof)...had an Atkins Advantage peanut butter bar last night for dessert. A relatively weak consolation prize for being good, to say the least.

=R=

Dude, NSM is bringing chocolates tomorrow. are you going to be able to resist?

[ExtraMSG]

Atkins was a charlaton and had NO scientifc data, period. the US Ag Dept (I believe) hosted a panel discussion whose panelist including Atkins and Dr Dean Ornish. I saw the discussion where Ornish got Atkins to publicly admit the he had no study information.

Catch up

Common sense, btw, is rarely common, nor is it guaranteed to make sense. That's why there's science. To someone from Haiti, it's common sense that you can mutilate a chicken to cure a cold.