Can't Decide which sharpening tool to get?!

[Jonpong]

I've been using whetstones for a few years, but i haven't really researched about all the different types until recently. My last stone was a Global Ceramic Whetsone, medium grit 1000, 5 mm depth, until it got nicked at work! Anyways, now im shopping for a new one, i really enjoyed using the global, but ive been reading about the Spyderco 204 sharpmaker a lot, and it looks quite promising... Just wondering if i should get the spyderco instead, even though i enjoy using a whetstone. And if i were to get another whetstone, what are your thoughts about the Global Ceramic series?? the 24mm depth Global's look even more attractive, or if you guys could recommend any other stones, im looking for a 1000 and 5000 grit stone, no combo ones though. Thanks.

[doronin]

IMHO, nothing (but whetstone in good hands) compares to EdgePro sharpeners. I have Apex and can't even think about... downgrading it to anything else.

[Carolyn Tillie]

A dear friend gave me one of these and I adore it!

[naes]

IMHO, nothing (but whetstone in good hands) compares to EdgePro sharpeners. I have Apex and can't even think about... downgrading it to anything else.

←

I recently did a lot of research into sharpening systems before making my purchasing decision. If I had the money to spend on it, then I would have gotten an EdgePro. They're just a little too expensive for me. I ended up buying the Spyderco Sharpmaker and love it.

[jpdchef]

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=...071&cat=1,43072 waterstones--if your proficient with whetstones already-----

[Jonpong]

Thanks for the input guys. Ya the aphex edge pro is abit outta my range, and it seems to me that it would be a bit clunky to have at work, though im sure it does an amazing job. Another question i had was that im having trouble finding the Spyderco sharpmaker in canada for a decent price, anyone know of retailers in canada? And again, if anyone has any comments about the global whetstones i would be more than pleased to hear em, or if i should just pick up some random japanese whetstone instead...

[Richard Kilgore]

If you do not want to go for the EdgePro, I'll also vouch for the Spyderco. It's a good system that has served me well.

[coquus]

I recently purchased two shapton professional waterstones from japanwoodworker.com, 2000 and 5000 grit. They had the best prices I could find on the M24 stones (1" thick) recommended for professional chef's. They were probably more pricey than the automatic sharpening system, but I like the idea of keeping things at low angles and manual, and don't really want to buy into any sharpening systems which I have to keep replacing stones on. Now I just need one of the natural finishing stones and a shapton diamond stone fixer and I will be set for life, got about, what, $600 you can lend me?

[Country Cook]

Just for fun I bought a $3 double sided stone from an Asian supermarket. It's 1" thick 6 inches long and works like a charm on my VG 10, carbon steel, etc. blades, can'y believe something that cheap works so good!

[Octaveman]

Shapton stones are the way to go. They will last a very very long time. Very quick cutting action.

http://www.shaptonstones.com/stones/profseries.php

http://www.shaptonstones.com/stones/glass.php

[Jonpong]

Mmmm ya those Shapton stones look amazing... I just have to find a retailer in canada who has em. Thanks for the recommendation. I still might get a spyderco if i can find a reasonable price for it here, be helpful to sharpen scissors and serrated knives.

[Matt_T]

How important is stone thickness? I have read that ceramic stones are very long wearing....so for most users would the Shapton M5 series be the best value? From Japanwoodworker:

The Shapton model M5 is 8¼" x 2¾" x ¾". However, only 5/16" is abrasive material. The other ½" is a ceramic supporting material which is laminated to the #5000 grit material. This stone is intended for kitchen and/or light use. It comes in a plastic storage case which also acts as a stone holder during use and folds away for very neat storage.

Almost 30% $$ savings over the full-thickness M15 series, at JWW.

- MT

[Preserver]

i agree with country cook.. i was looking for a whet stone as well and it can range anywhere from 20-100 dollars.... so if you are living in a big city or close to one look for an asian store... i found mine in japan town.... forgot what grit it was but i think mine was 5000... and it was way cheaper then sur la table or william sonoma....hope this helps...

[Octaveman]

I understand the M5's have issues. Something like they clog up quickly or they wear faster than the Pro stones. I can't recall but a simple email to http://www.shaptonstones.com/ asking what the differences are would be a good idea. While your at it, ask them how the new GlassStones compare too. I understand their great.

It blows me away that people spend $100's and $100's worth of knives then go to the asain market and spend $10 for a stone. It's all about how closely graded the partlicles are, the binding material, etc. and can make a huge difference in how well your knives come out. If the stone wears quickly it will dish in the middle and it will be impossible to sharpen your knives properly. Don't buy a high performance car then take it down to the corner service station for a tune up. There's a reason the stones are cheap. Just a word of caution to anyone who might care.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[Preserver]

maybe it's just my pure dumb luck so far... but the stone i got from japan town were for japanese knives, so there is no oil involved, just water...

[D & R Sharpening]

I'm going to second Bob's (Octaveman) recommendations/opinions. I too feel that good stones are a small investment when using good knives.

My personal feeling is that Shapton's stones are king. I have a lot of experience with their Pro stones but understand their new Glasstones to be of very high quality as well.

Norton's waterstones would rate 2nd. They give a decent edge and are priced right for the begineer. These stones should be a first consideration.

Spyderco's Sharpmaker is not really a sharpening system. It's more of a touch up tool or hone. It really won't sharpen a dull edge and it definitely won't repair chips/nicks, or broken tips. It's very slow to use and really is nothing more han a ceramic "steel". I'd not recommend spending money on this unless you want a great touch up tool.

--Dave--

Edited July 21, 2007 by D & R Sharpening (log)

[Matt_T]

Thanks for the info, I'll check those leads out.

At our firehouse I'm the guy responsible for stocking the pantry, keeping our small appliances in service...and sharpening knives. I've had to deal with lots of nicked and rolled edges as a result of helpful "sous chefs" cutting directly on stainless countertops, tossing dirty knives into the sink, loading improperly in the dishwasher and etc. (To my mind any loading of a knife into the DW is improper, but I've given up trying to police that policy).

For a while I was working out the nicks on Arkansas stones until another member brought in his Chef's Choice electric sharpener. It was a three-stage, one of their higher end models, maybe the one referenced in the knife sharpening tutorial. Worked like a charm restoring damaged edges and resetting the bevel. It'd take a good number of passes to grind past a very small nick - Not too aggressive, so I didn't feel I was taking too much out of the knife. The final edge was only ok - most users were happy with that level of sharpness but I would generally finish up manually, on a hard AK stone, those knives I use myself and keep in a seperate drawer for the handful of firehouse cooks who appreciate a better blade. But the CC did a great job rehabilitating damaged and extremely dull knives... after the time another helpful member took several of our knives to the coarse wheel of our bench grinder, for example, the CC was able to bring a few of them back to serviceable condition.

When the guy who owned the CC moved on to another assignment I picked up one of CC's manual sharpeners, the things that look like door handles you hold on the countertop. I started with their cheapest and that didn't work too well, but moved myself up to their top manual model - the one with little wheels that spin on the top, about $25 bucks - and that actually does a decent job. In between I tried a few other door-handle style manual sharpeners from Wal-Mart and elsewhere (because I like to buy things several times before spending for quality ), and none worked nearly as well as the better CC. One model that used short segments of ceramic rod worked ok at first for final touchup, but wore out very quickly.

Now instead of the AK stone I use the Spyderco for final touchup on our better knives, and this system works well and is a lot faster than my clumsy hands on the old series of stones.

A big downside to the CCs is they (all models I've used) tend to leave permanent streaks along the sides of the blade parallel to the edge. As a result I wouldn't use them on my nicer knives at home but for a busy kitchen I find it's a good, economical solution.

Don't expect I'll convert any of the real knife fanciers here to the CC + Spyderco approach and I'm looking myself for a fine waterstone to take my home knives to the next level. But thought I'd post my own experiences, and who knows - maybe there's another reader more interested in a quick, fairly inexpensive, and easy-to-learn way to maintain a number of knives that see hard use.

MT

[RobertCollins]

You might look at these sights:

http://www.epicedge.com/shopdisplaycategor...=91402429796092

http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=6

http://www.korin.com/mainCategory.php?cat=...knife&thekife=6

[scubadoo97]

It blows me away that people spend $100's and $100's worth of knives then go to the asain market and spend $10 for a stone.

←

This was my thought when I splurged on the EdgePro Apex. Absolutely no buyers remorse for the purchase. It was an investment that I feel was well spent.

[Matt_T]

Well I took the plunge on an extra-large 1000 grit King brand waterstone yesterday. More than $10, but not much more.

For years I've relied on the various sharpening gadgets, never mastering the old Arkansas stones for more than rough shaping or a few swipes of final finishing. But now that I've got an asymmetrically beveled knife I figure I've got no choice but to learn the right technique with the stones. Figure I'll start with the 1000 and continue to use the Sharpmaker for the final stages, then when I get the hang of it convert to waterstones for the finer grits too, and upgrade the quality. I'd guess stone quality is most important in the finer grits anyway. (?)

After re-reading Chad's tutorial I was able to get an edge on an old Wal Mart santuko I picked out to practice with, but it's quite uneven from point to heel. Practice, practice!

Anybody have a copy of the Korin DVD that they've watched enough times and care to part with, cheap?

MT

Edited July 24, 2007 by Matt_T (log)

[WiscoNole]

Shapton stones are the way to go.  They will last a very very long time.  Very quick cutting action.

http://www.shaptonstones.com/stones/profseries.php

http://www.shaptonstones.com/stones/glass.php

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Will those work on a Global? I just got my first one and am being pretty careful before I sharpen it.

[Octaveman]

Absolutely. Which grits you choose is the REAL issue.

Edited July 24, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[WiscoNole]

Probably get the #5000 fine out of those then?

[Octaveman]

I'm sorry, I should've asked a few more questions. Are these your first stones? If so, then the 5k by itself would be too fine to do any sharpening. It would be good for honing your knife between sharpenings instead of using a honing rod. What is your budget? Three stones would be ideal. Two you can get away with for a while but the better you get at sharpening, the more your going to demand from it. Since the GlassStones are cheaper and some say better than the Pro series I see nothing wrong with getting them. I have and love the Pro stones but haven't used the GS so I can't give you any insight there. The reason you will need additional stones is that the edge is very "toothy" after a 1k stone. The succesively higher grits will help refine your edge and make your bevels clear of scratches. If you make too big of a jump in grits, it will not sufficiently take care of the thoothyness or remove the scratches left by the lower grit stone.

The minimum

GlassStone 2k and 4k, or

Shapton Pro 2k and 5k

Better

Glass 1k, 2k, 4k, or

Shapton Pro 1k, 2k and 5k

Set for life

Glass 1k, 2k, 4k and 8k, or

Shapton Pro 1k, 2k, 5k and Naniwa 10k

If you chip your knife, repairs can be made on the 1k but it will most likely take quite a bit of work so you can either get a lower grit stone like a GlassStone 500 or just leave the chip there and it will eventually get ground away through regular sharpenings. Honestly, why grind away your blade if you don't have to.

Hope this better explained things.

(edited for clarity)

Edited July 25, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[Matt_T]

Well it's a slow day here so I just spent some time playing around, putting a 70/30 bevel on my cheap old santuko. I used the coin-stacking method to set my angle and got a sharp edge over the full length, though I can see the bevel is still uneven. Getting better though.

On the subject of stone quality: the King brand "Extra Large Deluxe" I bought is not a premium item I guess but it was the most expensive stone in the store I was shopping. Well, about the same cost (high $teens, depending on grit) as some Suehiro stones but those were smaller and came on little plastic stands; I guessed better to put the money into the actual stone and just set it on a towel. The King brand was also on the recommended list (for a few more $$) at Soko Hardware in SF's Japan town, where I was talking about knives last week.

Bob cautioned about cheap stones dishing out but the King seems pretty tough. I've been rubbing this stainless santuko against it long enough to form three edges and haven't worn all the way through the logo on the stone face yet.

The comment about dishing out reminded me of a cheap stone I bought at another Asian market when I bought my first Japanese style, single bevel santuko, a couple of years ago maybe. It looked like natural stone, dark greenish, almost the size of a brick with uneven edges and faces. I evened it out by rubbing against a coarse whetstone and tried to sharpen with it, but it didn't cut metal worth a darn and wore away very quickly - I know exactly what you mean by dishing out. Not worth the $4 I paid.

I haven't had the need or desire to try my stone skills on my Hiro HC gyuto yet, but I did "steel" it before cutting up some broccoli and onions for lunch today. It's building up a funky patina already and I figured that was on the edge, too, so thought I'd try cleaning it up. I used the fine rods in my Spyderco, in the 30 degree slots (that's total angle). For the back side I held the knife at an angle halfway between vertical and right against the stone, which I figure is about 8 degrees. For the front side I went vertical for 15 degrees. I should have tried the "magic marker trick" to check my angles but didn't think of it.

Anyway a few strokes each side cleaned the bevels up nicely....they looked like fine silver wire shining out of the dull patina. And I must have gotten the angles close to right because man, did the knife cut. Definitely sharper than OOTB, just with this little treatment. It just slipped right through thick broccoli stems.

Since this method seems to work pretty well, after lunch I ordered some ultrafine ceramic rods for the Spyderco off Ebay. According to a grit comparison chart I read somewhere they're supposed to be equivalent to #4000 waterstone, and I'd like to see what kind of edge that makes for. Since I already have the Sharpmaker it was very small investment.

Thanks to Bob and everyone for all the tips, I'm really having fun learning this stuff. Please excuse if I don't take all your advice to the letter, right away - sometimes I have to test my own theories, just to prove you right.

MT

Edited July 25, 2007 by Matt_T (log)