"Hypothetical" Ethical Restaurant Dilemma Poll

[Vadouvan]

Good stuff Tom.

I guess the laws just have to catch up with technology.

the argument could then be further made that the contents of the hard drive could be of high value depending on the profession of the owner of the computer, say a photo-editor or music related stuff like Philadining.

By the way did you ever meet Art Kaplan the Bioethics guy when you were at Penn ?

Interesting fellow.....

[lancastermike]

Just out of curiosity, but did they ever explicitly admit to the laptop or just the bag?

As I recall Doc just the bag but then the legal ramifications of the bag's content's complicates things.

BUT you can always hear when people are walking on eggshells, someone obviously looked in the bag as soon as it was found.

I am just interested in the legal issues not to crucify anyone.

Liability is a delicate art....

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Again, not attorney here. Who is to say that the backback did indeed contain the laptop? This guy Jack says so, but can he prove that? If not, he may just be running an insurance fraud. If I'm on the jury, I want to see some proof that the laptop was really there. I got a backpack that I may just leave someplace. If they find it without my laptop in it I will claim it was. Even if my laptop is at home

[HD73]

A couple points on the legal analysis:

1. This case is from Texas. Unless the hypothetical was more hypothetical than I thought, the restaurant was in Pennsylvania. The chances of a PA trial court judge relying on a Texas precedent are slim to none.

2. A quick look doesn't come up with any Pennsylvania cases on point.

3. The Texas case deals with a hotel. Innkeepers generally have a special legal status, and a later Texas court distinguished a similar situation on this basis (at least in part).

4. This doesn't mean a PA court wouldn't end up applying the same principle. It makes a lot of sense to me. If the restaurant had just never found the bag, they'd be off the hook (and there's a PA case directly on this point) but after finding the bag and talking to its owner, they should have exercised ordinary care to make sure they got it back, and they clearly didn't.

[Vadouvan]

That isnt the point Mike.

I think we all agree that people do engage in Illegal activity, this scenario isnt to establish truth on the part of the laptp owner, it assumes the laptop was actually there (which is reasonable) and thus we want to see the finer points of how the restaurant ends up assuming custody and legal liability....

[rlibkind]

. . . the argument could then be further made that the contents of the hard drive could be of high value depending on the profession of the owner of the computer, say a photo-editor or music related stuff like Philadining.

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That's pushing the envelope way beyond reason. In the "old" days you couldn't sue Kodak for screwing up your film developing for anything more than the value of an unexposed role of the film. And for good reason. Anyone could say they captured a million-dollar image. Same thing with contents of a hard-drive. The only way to prove it would be with a backup, and if you have a backup (as you should) what's the point of suing for recovery?

[kretch]

A couple points on the legal analysis:

1. This case is from Texas.  Unless the hypothetical was more hypothetical than I thought, the restaurant was in Pennsylvania.  The chances of a PA trial court judge relying on a Texas precedent are slim to none.

2. A quick look doesn't come up with any Pennsylvania cases on point.

3. The Texas case deals with a hotel.  Innkeepers generally have a special legal status, and a later Texas court distinguished a similar situation on this basis (at least in part).

4. This doesn't mean a PA court wouldn't end up applying the same principle.  It makes a lot of sense to me.  If the restaurant had just never found the bag, they'd be off the hook (and there's a PA case directly on this point) but after finding the bag and talking to its owner, they should have exercised ordinary care to make sure they got it back, and they clearly didn't.

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Clearly TX law doesn't bind PA. I went with this case because it seemed most on point of everything available in case law, at least at first glance. Anyway, agreed on points 1, 2, and 4, and to a limited extent, point 3. Most importantly, I'm in agreement with all of point #4, especially the first two sentences.

Edited April 17, 2007 by kretch (log)

[HD73]

A couple points on the legal analysis:

1. This case is from Texas.  Unless the hypothetical was more hypothetical than I thought, the restaurant was in Pennsylvania.  The chances of a PA trial court judge relying on a Texas precedent are slim to none.

2. A quick look doesn't come up with any Pennsylvania cases on point.

3. The Texas case deals with a hotel.  Innkeepers generally have a special legal status, and a later Texas court distinguished a similar situation on this basis (at least in part).

4. This doesn't mean a PA court wouldn't end up applying the same principle.  It makes a lot of sense to me.  If the restaurant had just never found the bag, they'd be off the hook (and there's a PA case directly on this point) but after finding the bag and talking to its owner, they should have exercised ordinary care to make sure they got it back, and they clearly didn't.

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Clearly TX law doesn't bind PA. I went with this case because it seemed most on point of everything available in case law, at least at first glance. Anyway, agreed on all four points - most importantly, on your first two sentences of point #4.

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I knew exactly where you were coming from - a mini-Property class for eGullet - and this is the perfect case for that. Just wanted to make sure people knew that the actual result in PA would still be very much up in the air.

[cdh]

The fact that the case is from Texas does negate its applicability in Philadelphia... and Texas law is very much more amenable to appeals to honor and unspoken duties to others. Just look at the reasoning in Joe Jamail's billion dollar case in Pennzoil v. Texaco. I don't know that that case would have come out the same way in any other state.

(Spoken as a graduate of the University of Texas Law School...)

Edited April 17, 2007 by cdh (log)

[Vadouvan]

That's pushing the envelope way beyond reason. In the "old" days you couldn't sue Kodak for screwing up your film developing for anything more than the value of an unexposed role of the film. And for good reason. Anyone could say they captured a million-dollar image. Same thing with contents of a hard-drive. The only way to prove it would be with a backup, and if you have a backup (as you should) what's the point of suing for recovery?

Precisely the point, not to get off topic but in the old days our founding fathers compromised and had an amendment to the constitution to allow the right to bear arms, I cant imagine they evisioned people running around the streets with Glocks, AK-47's amd Mk10s.

The correlation and substantive issue I was raising there is how law is translated "within the pace of technology."

I may actually agree with you bob but we arent on the court of appeals......

[HD73]

The fact that the case is from Texas does negate its applicability in Philadelphia... and Texas law is very much more amenable to appeals to honor and unspoken duties to others.  Just look at the reasoning in Joe Jamail's billion dollar case in Pennzoil v. Texaco.  I don't know that that case would have come out the same way in any other state.

(Spoken as a graduate of the University of Texas Law School...)

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Wasn't that reasoning, to simplify greatly, "A handshake's a handshake, damn it!"

[cdh]

The fact that the case is from Texas does negate its applicability in Philadelphia... and Texas law is very much more amenable to appeals to honor and unspoken duties to others.  Just look at the reasoning in Joe Jamail's billion dollar case in Pennzoil v. Texaco.  I don't know that that case would have come out the same way in any other state.

(Spoken as a graduate of the University of Texas Law School...)

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Wasn't that reasoning, to simplify greatly, "A handshake's a handshake, damn it!"

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And the statute of frauds be damned!

[Jeff L]

Again, not attorney here. Who is to say that the backback did indeed contain the laptop? This guy Jack says so, but can he prove that?  If not, he may just be running an insurance fraud. If I'm on the jury, I want to see some proof that the laptop was really there. I got a backpack that I may just leave someplace. If they find it without my laptop in it I will claim it was. Even if my laptop is at home

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Any wonder why insurance rates keep going up? Not suggesting that you'd do this of course, but this potential scam pales in comparison to the bump and sue crap that the Russian mob have elevated to an art form. You know the one where you are driving down the street and get hit by someone and next thing you know your insurance company is paying out on a bogus claim?

[kretch]

I knew exactly where you were coming from - a mini-Property class for eGullet - and this is the perfect case for that.  Just wanted to make sure people knew that the actual result in PA would still be very much up in the air.

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Agreed.

[WHT]

2. Restaurant should replace my computer since they found it and it was "stolen" from thier office

I welcome your thoughts.......

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That is what insurance was made for. File a claim because it was a theft after fileing a police report and let the insurance company handle it. My renters policy would cover all but the deductable for the loss since the computer went missing after the bag was secured.

[Holly Moore]

$1500 - the restaurant's deductable probably eats away most of it - I'm guessing at least $1,000. Not worth the hassle or the possible impact on future insurance rates. Out of pocket expense for the restaurant - guest relations. Shouldn't have taken so long to pay off.

Meanwhile, at the restaurant, I hope they figured out who's sporting a new laptop. I'd be worried about who evidently has access to the office.

$1,500 - probably not the place to start a PC/Mac debate. But $1,500 for a laptop?

[philadining]

$1,500 - probably not the place to start a PC/Mac debate.  But $1,500 for a laptop?

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I've heard rumors of some lunatics paying double that...

But to keep this somewhat on-topic, or at least eGullet-relevant, I've heard that there is a growing problem of laptops being snatched at coffeeshops and other places where people hang out with this very expensive stuff on the table. I don't think I've heard of it happening in Philly in specific, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Whether the situation is walking away from it for a minute to get another iLatte, or absent-mindedly leaving it somewhere in its backpack, it's a relatively new phenomenon that we might be carrying thousands of dollars (and sensitive personal information) with us all the time, and sometimes being a little careless with it...

The original scenario, as already noted, is a complicated one, with plenty of finger-pointing to be done. But I wonder how it would play out if your computer got stolen from the table at a coffeeshop? If the owner left it unattended, it seems like his fault. But what if he's sitting right there and it gets snatched from beneath his fingers (this has apparently happened in San Francisco.) Does the location bear any responsibility for that?

I suppose it's no different than if someone came in and snatched a purse or a briefcase and ran. It's not really the restaurant's/cafe's fault on an absolute cosmic fairness scale, I don't know about legal responsibility, but one wonders if they might want to try to make it right for the sake of customer service. The difference is that now it's quite normal for customers to have thousands of dollars of electronics sitting on the table.

I've just made myself really paranoid...

[Jeff L]

Anyone who works at remote locations with a laptop, especially internet cafes, should have one of these things. They are cheap, isn't a $25 investment worth saving your laptop?

http://www.trust.com/products/product.aspx?artnr=14609

Looks to be available only in Europe

http://cgi.ebay.ie/Mobile-Laptop-Alarm-Tru...9QQcmdZViewItem

[wkl]

interesting question.

i think if you got "laptop jacked" in a coffee house there is no question the laptop was stolen and it would be a police matter. maybe renters insurance/homeowners may cover it. it's possible it may be recovered by the authorites. whatever, there is no question you had the laptop and it was stolen.

however, leaving a backpack (with a laptop in it) in a restaurant can create a scenario of your word against managements that here was actually a laptop inside the backpack.

[TarteTatin]

Anyone who works at remote locations with a laptop, especially internet cafes, should have one of these things. They are cheap, isn't a $25 investment worth saving your laptop?

http://www.trust.com/products/product.aspx?artnr=14609

Looks to be available only in Europe

http://cgi.ebay.ie/Mobile-Laptop-Alarm-Tru...9QQcmdZViewItem

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Ahem - Not to get into a Mac/PC debate, but there is a really elegant piece of software called Undercover from a company in Belgium specifically designed for Macs - any sort of Mac that runs OSX. It's inexpensive - $49 for a household license which covers up to 5 Macs - and takes up less space than a Dashboard Widget. Details here at Orbicule

They have a stories on their website about recovering stolen Mac laptops. We installed the software before we went off to France two weeks ago. Felt much safer.

I would encourage anyone who has a Mac - laptop or desktop - to have a look.

Sorry PC folks, they only write software for Macs.

Edited April 19, 2007 by TarteTatin (log)

[Vadouvan]

Ahem - Not to get into a Mac/PC debate,

Who could be possibly more qualified to discuss APPLES than TARTETATIN.............

[menon1971]

A point of diplomacy: why not give the restaurant two options? Either split the cost of the laptop or give the potential plaintiff a $1,500 gift certificate to the restaurant. The latter would generate good will, tips for the wait staff, and potential future business from guests of the person redeeming the certificate. The ultimate benefit, as someone who recently had jury duty, is not having to go to court.

[WHT]

$1,500 - probably not the place to start a PC/Mac debate.  But $1,500 for a laptop?

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For a Mac that is at the low end I have seen Mac laptops go for over $3K. For a PC that would be on the high end. This is not counting the extra money for software.

[brucedelta]

Since we are talking about laptopss going missing I will add some thoughts which I fell well qualified to offer sine I had a loptop stolen a couple of months ago when my car was broken into. I suspect the ipod sitting in the console atracted the bandit and finding a laptop bag was just a luckey break for some scum bucket.

In any case I have become much more careful about hiding my ipod, but on to the laptop. For most people who really use their computer I suspect the physical and monetary loss of the unit is the least of the trauma that is to be felt.

The two big issues are the data on the laptop and the potential for this data to fall into the wrong hands. I am in the IT business, so I suspect it was a lot less traumatic for me than it would be for an average user.

1) Data backup - I use a tool called Acronis that can back up a entire hard disk. It is easy to use and you can just boot from a CD and back the entire computer up to a USB external drive. I had a backup that was a few weeks old, and I was able to restore it to a different computer the next day while waiting for my car window to be replaced. Since I have a exchange server at work all my email was backed up on the server, so once I got the restored system going I was pretty much up to date. For anyone interested I would take a look at the following:

Acronis Trueimage

2) Data security - I had no protection on this front and had to change all memorized passwords and ensure any data on the computer would not cause problems if it fell into the wrong hands. This was my major headache, but having my data back in hand helped identify what was at risk. I am currently trying a drive encryption package. The software I am looking at is the following:

Truecrypt

Since this is open source it may be a little complex for someone who is not computer literate, but there are similar commercial packages available.

Bottom line I would encourage anyone with a laptop to think about what they would do if it were lost in advance. Paying over $1000 to replace a laptop is unplesant, but I would rate it was the least painful aspect of a laptop loss.

-- Bruce

[marinade]

1) Data backup - I use a tool called Acronis that can back up a entire hard disk.  It is easy to use and you can just boot from a CD and back the entire computer up to a USB external drive.

Ditto on that. I use the same software to back up via wifi to an HP Media Vault. It's painless. I lost my laptop during a New Year's Eve dinner when a glass of champagne tipped into it. I had hooked the laptop into my audio system to play music and a guest wanted to hear some Miles Davis and the mouse nudged the glass the wrong way. Could have been coffee or wine at a restaurant. Notebook hard drives are notorious for failing accidentally or mechanically.

It's not about replacing hardware, it's about replacing lost hours and a lot of your thinking that went into them.

Now I'm doing daily backups with weekly incremental s on DVD's.

[marinade]

$1,500 - probably not the place to start a PC/Mac debate.  But $1,500 for a laptop?

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I've heard rumors of some lunatics paying double that... 

$1,500 is about the price they'll quote you for hard drive data recovery and it can get meaner.