Tasting Notes: What's useful?

[Rebel Rose]

I've been wondering lately what members here find useful in wine tasting notes?

Do the typical berry-cherry and secondary notes give you a good sense of the wine? Do you want to see more information on balance, weight, and finish? Or on food pairing possibilities? Would you like to see prices included? (With of course, the caveat that we understand the prices will fluctuate given your locale.)

Since this is a culinary site, I suspect that our members are looking for slightly different information on wines than would be found on a wine-specific site or publication. But this gives us an opportunity to do some genre-busting note posting. Why not dare to be different?

Am I wrong to fear that our large membership is afraid to post here because they assume that:

a) wine notes should be only be written by the super-experienced

b) wine notes should be stuffy and pompous, and

c) wine notes should only be written on "important" wines?

So, if this forum were to offer more tasting notes, what you like to see as a reader? And if you were to (gasp) write a tasting note, what would you like to offer?

[smorris291]

I must admit that I don't feel "experienced" enough to write tasting notes, so I don't think you're off-base there. I am doing my best to drink enough wine that at some point I will feel qualified, though...

As far as what I'd like to see in other's notes, Jim does a wonderful thin, listing the price he paid for the wine and an assesment of whether he thinks the wine is worth that cost.

[Rebel Rose]

'Florida Jim' is definitely the high bar for wine writing around here. I hope to someday write like him . . .

And I agree that I like knowing the pricing on wines I am not familiar with . . . then I can decide if I would like to track it down, and perhaps buy a small quantity.

[Florida Jim]

Mary,

The wine note I most enjoyed ever was written by my friend Larry Meehan; I look at it often for inspiration:

"NV Toffoli Prosecco ($10-12)

I had just finished shopping at Trader Joe's for my weekly pantry

maintenance, when I saw a fifty-ish man in a floral print shirt, Dockers

and old loafers hop up on the back of his cart. He proceeded to ride

along the gentle slope right to his car. Following his example (and much

to three year old Michael's delight) I did the same. Just that bit of

breeze and fun on a hot, muggy day made me feel refreshed. The fellow

shot me a knowing smile and drove off. It was a brief encounter, but it

still makes me happy. I should do that more often.

Happy summer, friends.

LM"

We can be as technical as we think is communicative but this note tells me how the taster feels - and to me, that is everything when talking about something that is so utterly subjective and, at the same time, so utterly sublime.

Best, Jim

Edited April 2, 2007 by Florida Jim (log)

[Don Giovanni]

I've been wondering lately what members here find useful in wine tasting notes?

a) wine notes should be only be written by the super-experienced

b) wine notes should be stuffy and pompous, and

c) wine notes should only be written on "important" wines?

I just tell people to write and put down what they are experiencing...once they get that down the rest is easy all you do is type.....the world would be boring if only the top wine critics wrote a TN:

This is one that I did by just taking small notes and then the next day expanded them to what they became.

Quote:

Before wine critic Robert M. Parker, Jr. began promoting them, the wines of Chateauneuf were considered rustic and of limited appeal in the USA. However, his influence increased their price four-fold in a decade. In gratitude, the Chateauneuf Winemakers Union pushed for his becoming an honorary citizen of the village.

Châteauneuf-du-Pape

Bosquet des Papes (literally translated "The Popes Thicket").

Vintage 2000

ALC. 13.5% By Vol

100% Grenache CUVÉE

Decanted 1 hour and developed as the night went on.

The nose: earthy not funky Brett but honest clean earth, menthol ,plum, black pepper spice that tickles your nose, black licorice intertwined by anise, cherries, brambling raspberries.

The color: a wonderful bright Ruby red, when tilted so the wine touches the edge of the glass the color changes to a pale pink then to translucent, this tell me the wine has some years left, just by looking at it.

The first taste: Nice mouth-feel well balanced, sweet on the tip of your tongue, fuzzy on the top of the tongue, tingles the sides and then a snap in the back finish followed by spice ever so nice.

The second taste: Brambling deep dark raspberries, velvet, good balance or acidity, whiff of vanilla, followed by coconut on the exhale...a real seductive wine, again the anise and black licorice, red cherries, plum, black pepper, the hang time, long short as opposed to medium long, this wine is starting to hit it's zenith over the next few years should be very nice and hold up. One word "Gouey-ah-tha-lah" whom ever can tell me what that word means I will send you one bottle of something nice, limited to the first correct answer. USA only.

The cork OMG how beautiful the embossed bird with grapes in it's beak perched on a vine.., I love this cork.. the bottle raised embossed heavy glass nice punt and the raised embossed logo was very impressive.

My Score Points 92

$37.00 bought in Ithaca, NY at Sparrow's Fine Wines

Address: 726 W Green St, Ithaca, NY 14850 Phone: (607) 256-7145

Disclosure I have no affiliation with this store in any way.

[Brad Ballinger]

Well, here's my approach. I try and convey an impression of the wine more than anything else. While my notes may venture more into description than pure impression, it's the latter that I'm usually shooting for. I don't want the "pressure" of having to get a description "right."

I also encourage anyone to write a note. For two reasons -- 1) it helps the writer better describe what he or she likes (or doesn't like) in a wine, and that's something that will serve a person well; 2) I'm all for any data point on any wine.

[Rebel Rose]

I agree. The 'practice' involved in writing wine notes is an expanding experience in itself. One learns to pay more attention to the various levels of wine enjoyment.

John's system is a very good one, and although it may seem non-intuitive, it's a good one for beginners, because it's thorough. Ultimately, however, it's like poetry, the more we learn, the less we need to say, and Jim's friend has captured the spirit of prosecco perfectly.

[JohnL]

Contrary to what a lot of people seem to believe. There is an art and science to tasting and evaluating wine. It can be and is taught.

There is also a formal language accepted by tasters.

Scoring wines is not some whimsical endeavor. So highly personal or subjective as to be unique to each individual and therefore relative only to that person or someone else who has identical preferences.

If there were no agreed upon means of evaluating and communicating a wine's attributes (or lack thereof) then tasting notes are inherently useless.

I get the entertainment factor. I get the "impression" part but rather than treat tasting notes as a form of personal expression people should be encouraged to understand and recognize basic factors about wine and the language used (accepted) to describe them. Thus someone describing the effects of sulphur as say "beguiling notes of decay" which in its vagueness conveys any number of things some good and some bad would be communicating much better if he or she noted the presence of sulphur!

For me--proof that wine is not "utterly subjective." (sorry Jim)

A wine that has turned to vinegar may be "delightful" (a lot of people sip fine balsamic vinegars) to some people but delightful or not the wine is vinegar!

Even the poets are precise in their language--there is blue and there is azure or teal!

There is plenty of room in tasting notes to provide one's impressions but if these notes and impressions are intended for others to read (vs a diary entry) then there is incumbent upon the writer a responsibility to be readable and more importantly understandable!

While the Larry Meehan piece Jim provides is enjoyable to read and nicely conveys an impression, I would argue it provides little or no usable information about the wine--remove the name and price and Larry could be describing any one of thousands of wines white, red, rose, sparkling, non sparkling etc and even any beverage from Gin to ice tea to coolade!

In fact, the closest I can come to Meehan's impressionism (this is not a tasting note) is a piece of art whose value lies not in the execution but rather the clever title. as I noted Larry could be writing about anything but hey--add the title "Prosecco" and one can shout out: "Oh I get it!"

So, I don't have a problem with personal impressions. I believe that many tasting notes benefit from some flair in the verbiage but the notion that wine is so ethereal as to be completely subjective is silly and does a great injustice to wine and wine making and wine appreciation.

(actually, I don't believe Jim and others are really claiming this).

If we accept that there is room for subjective observation and that there is a difference between objective assessment and qualitative--that red is really red and a corked wine is really corked vs I like or dislike, then I really don't have a problem with someone writing a pure subjective impression. Poetry is poetry and a tasting note is a tasting note!

I think there's room for both.

[Florida Jim]

If we accept that there is room for subjective observation and that there is a difference between objective assessment and qualitative--that red is really red and a corked wine is really corked vs I like or dislike, then I really don't have a problem with someone writing a pure subjective impression. Poetry is poetry and a tasting note is a tasting note!

I think there's room for both.

←

Point, counter-point; very well said.

But I will go with Mary (and Larry) on this one:

"John's system is a very good one, and although it may seem non-intuitive, it's a good one for beginners, because it's thorough. Ultimately, however, it's like poetry, the more we learn, the less we need to say, and Jim's friend has captured the spirit of prosecco perfectly."

Best, Jim

[GordonCooks]

There are two types of notes...a note for yourself to spark a remembrance of a great bottle shared in good company. And a note like many you see online. Succinct, factual info regarding style, price, availability, and integrity to it's varietal, vineyard, or terroir. Basically, is it a wine I would like to purchase and write a note like the former.

Actually, I would consider the latter "tasting notes" and the former "drinking notes" I guess.

Edited April 3, 2007 by GordonCooks (log)

[JohnL]

I would add, based in part, on GordonCook's point:

The intent of the note is an important consideration.

Wine tasting and evaluation is a skill that can be learned and is, in fact, taught.

Writing a tasting note is also a skill and these notes are a very important form of communication.

There is room, as I noted earlier, for the sort of subjective impressionism one finds in Larry's writing. I would add that even the esteemed Jim usually posts what are fairly conventional notes and not the florid prose of the prosecco note. Covering color, nose etc He may focus on his impressions a bit more but still he usually covers the bases.

[GordonCooks]

I would add, based in part, on GordonCook's point:

The intent of the note is an important consideration.

Wine tasting and evaluation is a skill that can be learned and is, in fact, taught.

Writing a tasting note is also a skill and these notes are a very important form of communication.

There is room, as I noted earlier, for the sort of subjective impressionism one finds in Larry's writing. I would add that even the esteemed Jim usually posts what are fairly conventional notes and not the florid prose of the prosecco note. Covering color, nose etc He may focus on his impressions a bit more but still he usually covers the bases.

←

There is plenty of room for both and I'm sure that everyone has something they prefer in the way of info. For the record, Florida Jim's note are among the best I've read in terms of the amount of raw and accurate info that is conveyed in a most efficient manner without sacrificing humor or aplomb. But Larry Meehan's note clearly conveys a Hendrick's and tonic with a slice of cucumber in a highball glass surrounding a quartet of square-cut ice cubes...clearly

[Florida Jim]

But Larry Meehan's note clearly conveys a Hendrick's and tonic with a slice of cucumber in a highball glass surrounding a quartet of square-cut ice cubes...clearly 

←

Man, I can taste it!

Best, Jim

[MattJohnson]

One of the tough parts about shooting for the objectively correct tasting note is that it is very difficult for a novice wine drinker to do. I consider myself a novice. My wife and I started taking notes about 6 months ago. We are just starting to be able to get some of the objective aspects of the wine. It is much easier to convey one's impressions.

We created a sheet that helps guide us through color, acidity, body, aroma, tastes, and finishes. Even so, we have the one blank on our sheet that asks, "If this wine was a person, who would it be?" And I have to say, this is probably the most fun we have tasting.

I guess its important to keep it fun and useful. I mean, its wine, not taxes.

[Rebel Rose]

Fun and useful is what it's all about. Last year I sat down with a group of about eight other women winemakers in my area to taste some dry rieslings. We were using the Davis 20 point worksheets, but found it woefully inadequate. As women, we also wanted to gauge the "fun" factor in the wine . . . would it make a nice picnic quaffer? A good pairing for Thanksgiving? Does the packaging appeal to us? So you see, even wine professionals aren't always interested in dry, succinct wine "notes."

[JohnL]

One of the tough parts about shooting for the objectively correct tasting note is that it is very difficult for a novice wine drinker to do.  I consider myself a novice.  My wife and I started taking notes about 6 months ago.  We are just starting to be able to get some of the objective aspects of the wine.  It is much easier to convey one's impressions.

We created a sheet that helps guide us through color, acidity, body, aroma, tastes, and finishes.  Even so, we have the one blank on our sheet that asks, "If this wine was a person, who would it be?"  And I have to say, this is probably the most fun we have tasting.

I guess its important to keep it fun and useful.  I mean, its wine, not taxes.

←

You make a few very good observations.

First, at least attempting to learn how to taste wine objectively is very commendable. I think it not only helps one to understand wine but also to understand and appreciate professional tasters and the work they do (also dedicated amateurs).

It also enables one to better communicate with others.

I agree, it is far easier to just offer one's impressions of a wine without the "work" or concentration required (the objective part). Your "tasting sheets" are a good idea as the more objective evaluative part sort of forces one to actually think about what they are tasting and then to have fun describing it. In fact, a good tasting note provides one's impressions and contains support for those impressions. It also allows someone who does not know you and your personal tastes and experiences to understand what the wine is all about. One can convey that "hey I really like this wine" but if some support is offered for the observation then the recommendation is more likely to be taken seriously.

I often wonder what the point of many of these notes posted all over the net is. Who is the real intended target, other wine lovers or the poster him or herself ? (their ego really).

But I suppose everyone is a star and expert these days and all opinions are equally valid.

This explains the silly notion that professional wine tasters and critics are no more qualified to write about wine than Uncle Joe or one's neighbor; that wine is a purely subjective experience that "it is all good." To me, there's no fun in this nihilistic view, chaos and anarchy may provide some brief moments of pleasure but are not really the way to go over the long haul.

[RichieRich]

I've been lurking here for a while but this thread (and Mary's urging just now) has finally brought me out of the woodwork.

For me, the question of what's useful in tasting notes is extremely context-dependent. Am I trying to describe the wine to someone else, am I looking at the back label to decide if -I- am going to like it, or am I trying to record my own impressions so that a year from now I have something to jog my (all too untrustworthy) memory.

The hardest of all for me is to give some sort of meaningful impression to someone else. I've had a couple of introductory tasting classes, etc so I've been exposed to some methodology and a structured approach to tasting. That at least helps establish some common terminology. But as has already been pointed out elsewhere, individual palates can vary tremendously. I have a good friend that I swear must have the genetically opposite palate of mine. We go back and forth along the lines of "You tasted WHAT?" "Where do you get THAT from?" And yet this happens with wines that we both think are great. In this circumstance, trying to establish a common vocabulary is... challenging. I think FloridaJim, JohnL, et al do a great job in this regard. I find all their notes extremely useful.

The easiest is just taking some notes for my own future benefit. The audience is limited, and dare I say, quite forgiving.

When it comes to back labels, I guess I'm in the more-is-better camp. I like a combination of data points (like Ridge has, for example), and at least some indication of flavor profile. At that point, I feel like I can usually tell enough to give me a better than average chance of making a good choice. Of course, there's always the marketing phraseology to wade through... Can there be a more useless phrase than "while drinkable now, this wine will continue to improve..." Just once I'd like to see a back label that says "You'd have to be nuts to drink this now".

[JohnL]

Rich

You hit it on the head. "flavor profile."

A wine's flavor profile is not some subjective impression.

(subjective impressions are part of any good tasting note)

A wines flavor profile is the basic information about a wine that professional tasters (experienced amateurs too), wine writers, critics, wine makers etc will all pretty much agree upon. For eg noting the presence of oak. this has nothing to do with whether or not the taster likes or dislikes oak in a particular wine it is either there or it is not. as is how the oak --if its there-is integrated at the point which the taster is tasting the wine.

It is important information for consumers who may be looking for a wine that has oak flavors or not.

The flavor profile is important because it enables a consumer to make a purchase decision based upon what they can reasonably expect the wine to taste like. Of course, someone who can not recognize the presence of oak flavors in wine will have difficulty detecting it but a good note will help a consumer "learn" to recognize it in wine.

Too many people get hung up in the subjective aspects of wine notes and tasting. This is blown way out of proportion. in fact I read probably thousands of notes from various critics and writers and one would be suprised at how often these folks agree.

They may disagree on the final valuation but rarely is there disagreement on a wine's flavor profile.

Critics and tasters can also provide context for a wine. That is having tasted so many wines they have a perspective on how that wine pans out in terms of other vintages or other similar or different wines. Few of us will ever taste verticals of vintages of a wine so a critic who can tell us how a particular wine fits into the history of that wine producer etc. (eg "it is richer and more tannic than the '59 was at the same stage in development")

In fact, I often find, more often than not, these critics agree on the more subjective aspects of most wines. people attempting to make some sort of a political case often take the most striking examples of disagreement overlooking all the times the critics being compared actually agreed.

For me--it is all about perspective!